Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

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  • #441
So you dont believe her when she said he raped her but you believe her story that she killed her? I dont get it. How do you know she is telling the truth? Why believe that part and not the rape? The evidence showed that they couldnt determine who killed Tori, so how do you know 100% that it was her, just because she said so?

IMO you either believe her whole confession or you believe none of it. How can you pick and chose what to believe?

You also believe that MTR thought he was babysitting, I dont understand how so. If he didnt have a back seat then why have a child in the car? Why hide the child?

To me some <modsnip> are picking and choosing to believe some of the crowns evidence that leans towards TLM doing everything but believe none of the evidence that shows MTR raped her, abducted her etc.

Boggles my mind.

Anyways this is all JMO

BBM: I believe you look for corroborating evidence, to support what TLM has said.

The Crown has presented ample evidence to corroborate the kidnapping and sexual assault, IMO. Therefore, to me, they must convict on the murder charge also, as Rafferty was there, and Tori died during the assault and kidnapping.

You really needed to be in the courtroom to hear all of TLM's testimony, and see the videos of her confession, before you could pass judgement on who you believe wielded the hammer, IMO. It's very difficult to determine that, based on the tweets, IMO.

JMO
 
  • #442
So you dont believe her when she said he raped her but you believe her story that she killed her? I dont get it. How do you know she is telling the truth? Why believe that part and not the rape? The evidence showed that they couldnt determine who killed Tori, so how do you know 100% that it was her, just because she said so?

IMO you either believe her whole confession or you believe none of it. How can you pick and chose what to believe?

You also believe that MTR thought he was babysitting, I dont understand how so. If he didnt have a back seat then why have a child in the car? Why hide the child?

To me some <modsnip> are picking and choosing to believe some of the crowns evidence that leans towards TLM doing everything but believe none of the evidence that shows MTR raped her, abducted her etc.

Boggles my mind.

Anyways this is all JMO

With all due respect, I think just the opposite. IMO, based on TLM's background and previously changed versions of events, it would be illogical to believe all or none of her testimony. <modsnip> - MOO. It seems perfectly natural to "pick and choose" depending on the evidence, instinct, and gut feeling.

<modsnip> that they still do not believe that it was TLM who swung the hammer (in spite of her latest testimony and no evidence to refute it), and yet they believe everything else she has claimed. All before they have heard the defence's side of the story.

What boggles my mind is that so many people are 100% convinced of the accused's guilt of all charges (and then some!) at a stage in the trial when only the prosecution's case has been presented. Some have openly stated that they are prepared to fully disbelieve whatever the defence has to say. Others have come right out and questioned even the necessity of a trial.

IIRC, most members who have expressed doubts are withholding judgment until both sides have presented their evidence and arguments. Suggesting alternative possibilities and differing opinions is what Websleuths is all about. How boring it would be if everyone agreed.

JMO

P.S. Other than TLM's word, I don't recall any evidence that Tori was hidden in the back seat. The car had tinted rear windows and there was no DNA found on the coat that TLM claimed covered her. The absence of difficult-to-remove DNA on that jacket is just one of many pieces of "evidence" (or lack of it) that has me scratching my head. MOO
 
  • #443
With all due respect, I think just the opposite. IMO, based on TLM's background and previously changed versions of events, it would be illogical to believe all or none of her testimony. <modsnip> - MOO. It seems perfectly natural to "pick and choose" depending on the evidence, instinct, and gut feeling.

<modsnip> that they still do not believe that it was TLM who swung the hammer (in spite of her latest testimony and no evidence to refute it), and yet they believe everything else she has claimed. All before they have heard the defence's side of the story.

What boggles my mind is that so many people are 100% convinced of the accused's guilt of all charges (and then some!) at a stage in the trial when only the prosecution's case has been presented. Some have openly stated that they are prepared to fully disbelieve whatever the defence has to say. Others have come right out and questioned even the necessity of a trial.

IIRC, most members who have expressed doubts are withholding judgment until both sides have presented their evidence and arguments. Suggesting alternative possibilities and differing opinions is what Websleuths is all about. How boring it would be if everyone agreed.

JMO

P.S. Other than TLM's word, I don't recall any evidence that Tori was hidden in the back seat. The car had tinted rear windows and there was no DNA found on the coat that TLM claimed covered her. The absence of difficult-to-remove DNA on that jacket is just one of many pieces of "evidence" (or lack of it) that has me scratching my head. MOO



I respect all the things you post as you are very logical. I agree that we have not heard everything because we are not in the courtroom and we have not heard the defence and everyone has a right to their own opinion.

I agree with you on the coat as there was no evidence found and I was shocked to hear that. You are right when you say that its only her word that Tori was hidden in the back.

I am not even 100% on what I believe because there are so many gaps and missing evidence.

I guess that is what you get on a site like this when people believe different things. I just find that a lot of people are defending him saying he didnt know Tori was kidnapped, he didnt rape her and he just happened to be at the wrong place wrong time.

There is just no way I believe that MTR didnt know she was being kidnapped. No matter what TLM's story was to the courts.

As for the actual murder, that really wasnt proven either, she claimed that she did it, but did she really?

Both of these people are liars and I think if MTR was not guilty he would take the stand.

Wouldn't you think so?
 
  • #444
I respect all the things you post as you are very logical. I agree that we have not heard everything because we are not in the courtroom and we have not heard the defence and everyone has a right to their own opinion.

I agree with you on the coat as there was no evidence found and I was shocked to hear that. You are right when you say that its only her word that Tori was hidden in the back.

I am not even 100% on what I believe because there are so many gaps and missing evidence.

I guess that is what you get on a site like this when people believe different things. I just find that a lot of people are defending him saying he didnt know Tori was kidnapped, he didnt rape her and he just happened to be at the wrong place wrong time.

There is just no way I believe that MTR didnt know she was being kidnapped. No matter what TLM's story was to the courts.

As for the actual murder, that really wasnt proven either, she claimed that she did it, but did she really?

Both of these people are liars and I think if MTR was not guilty he would take the stand.

Wouldn't you think so?

(RSBM)

Not necessarily. I have heard that most defence attorneys strongly discourage this. MTR would have to be terribly determined to do so against his lawyer's advice. Basically, all he could say would be to refute TLM's testimony about what only the two of them thought, felt, heard, saw, and did. It would be strictly a "he said/she said" situation and in all honesty, his credibility right now is not much better than hers. As per my previous post, it's is also MOO that there are many people who would not believe a word that he said.

As we know, the onus is on the Crown to prove MTR's guilt. It is the defence's job to cast reasonable doubt on the Crown's evidence. I have doubts that there is much MTR could say that would convince most people he is being honest - sworn testimony or not. It could only become detrimental to his cause if the Crown tore him apart up there, which is what he would attempt.

Having said all that, I'm not sure how I feel about wanting MTR to testify on his own behalf. Part of me hopes he does and another does not. I don't believe it would help him and I do want all guilty parties in this case to get the appropriate verdict.

JMO
 
  • #445
I can't help it but I am thinking all the time how horrific the situation for MR's mother must be. Imagine you would be in her shoes....

Did she move away? I sure would. Everybody in the neighbourhood knows you're the mother and talks about you.

Having children on my own I feel for both parties. Loosing a child is the most horrible thing that can happen to a parent and both parties did. Not only Toris parents will ask themselves for the rest of their lives the questions: what if...? Why? Is it my fault? What went wrong? And for MR's Mother: When and where did I loose my child? When and why was the connection gone? When did I miss to step in because he was on the wrong path?

I truly feel bad for her. There are probably not many people out there asking about how she is coping with this awful situation simply because she is the ......(you fill in whatever you like) mother.



I am glad things get moving tomorrow and I am open for everything. I can't see how he can not be guilty but who knows. In my little loving mind is so much trouble to accept that there are people out there that are capable of doing such horrific things. I just don't get it!!
 
  • #446
One more sleep!

I know. I can hardly wait to get this show on the road, so to speak. All these delays and days off. I can't imagine how Tori's family must feel, waiting and waiting. Waiting for the defense's big bomb and the story that will free MR, or not. They must be very anxious.

This is like watching one of those reality shows where someone is getting kicked off or someone wins and before they say who, the do an entire recap and 30 minutes of commercials. Irritating!

Salem
 
  • #447
Yet through a timeline of phone calls and showing of Genest surveillance video, the Crown painted a picture Wednesday of Rafferty keen on keeping in touch with McClintic and showing no signs of being horrified with her behaviour.

The two contacted each other at least 97 times through cellphone calls or texts between April 9 and May 19, the day McClintic and Rafferty were arrested. He visited her once at Woodstock courthouse when she had a hearing on an unrelated charge and visited her twice in Genest while she was in custody on that charge.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/25/19680036.html

If he wasn't guilty he would not be visiting her. If he was innocent, he would have no need to protect himself and no desire to be around her--an he certainly would not have helped to cover up the crime. MOO
 
  • #448
I was just reading the words that Paul Bernardo wrote on his bedroom wall, while still living at home.

I thought they applied to MTR, and what he might write on his walls.

JMO

In Paul's own hand writing, carefully placed and posted, were phrases that glorified ultimate power.

Greed, money and dominance are necessities, claim these walls. "Expect the unexpected;" "Those who have nerves breakdown;" "The facts don' t count when you have a dream;" "There are winners, and there are whiners;" "Change the input and you'll change the output;" "Nice guys finish last;" "Every battle is won before it's fought."


One phrase, culled from the movie Wall Street, reads: "Greed is good, greed is great, greed works. Greed clarify's, cuts through and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for money, for life, for love and knowledge has marked the ground upsurge of mankind. And greed will do it for you.&#8221;

"The illusion has become real.&#8221;

 
  • #449
Has anyone ever thought that his lawyer might be trying to pull the insanity route? is this possible this late in the game??
 
  • #450
Isn't Tori's Law about reinstating capital punishment?

"Prime Minister Stephen Harper says opening the debate on capital punishment is a non-starter, despite this week's outcry from Canadians horrified by details of the Tori Stafford case.

"I don't think there is a public consensus on the death penalty," Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Friday. "I don't think the public wants to reopen the debate and I don't intend to reopen the debate."

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/16/pm-wont-open-capital-punishment-debate

That's the end of that ... there will be no new law to re-instate capital punishment in Canada for any reason.

...well I am being careful in my reply as this is websleuther and do NOT want to offend anyone here....there is MOST definitely a Petition tited The Tori Law !....It was on TV in which Tori's father voiced his Opinions pertaining to his daughter 's horrific MURDER ....15,000 signatures are required and they are almost there !!!!... ONTARIO PArents and Citzen's are as you said "HORRIFIED with TORI's brutal MURDER "....RODNEY"S final words that are on video and he was interviewed on Friday AFTER the crown has now rested their case ...parphrased ...Rodney wishes are to MAKE ONTARIO a SAFER place for all CHILDREN!....once 15.000 signatures are met this PETION shall be re INTRODUCED into our Legislature!....All I will comment is shall we all watch than how it is handled !!!...the end Robynhood ...and yes finally ! more sleep and than ...FINALLY AFTER 3 years of waiting we shall see what MR>. Detstine ...the defence intends to handle all this EVIDENCE and foresic science and video tapes....I MAY VERY WELL be in London court this week!....I find it EXTREMELY HARD to get a clear picture of what is going on.....AS a teacher and a PARENT in ONTARIO ....I want the see OUR CHILDREN SAFE like Tori's dad....sorry end of this reant for the monent ....Oh yes ...I am applauding SWEDE for that long list of evidence ...etc...which the CROWN DID IN THIS CASE ...IMO THE CROWN did an EXCELLEnt job OF PRODUCING ....THANKS AGIN SWEDE FOR WHAT i FEEL WAS A GREAT post HERE ....ROBYNHOOD
 
  • #451
...well I am being careful in my reply as this is websleuther and do NOT want to offend anyone here....there is MOST definitely a Petition tited The Tori Law !....It was on TV in which Tori's father voiced his Opinions pertaining to his daughter 's horrific MURDER ....15,000 signatures are required and they are almost there !!!!... ONTARIO PArents and Citzen's are as you said "HORRIFIED with TORI's brutal MURDER "....RODNEY"S final words that are on video and he was interviewed on Friday AFTER the crown has now rested their case ...parphrased ...Rodney wishes are to MAKE ONTARIO a SAFER place for all CHILDREN!....once 15.000 signatures are met this PETION shall be re INTRODUCED into our Legislature!....All I will comment is shall we all watch than how it is handled !!!...the end Robynhood ...and yes finally ! more sleep and than ...FINALLY AFTER 3 years of waiting we shall see what MR>. Detstine ...the defence intends to handle all this EVIDENCE and foresic science and video tapes....I MAY VERY WELL be in London court this week!....I find it EXTREMELY HARD to get a clear picture of what is going on.....AS a teacher and a PARENT in ONTARIO ....I want the see OUR CHILDREN SAFE like Tori's dad....sorry end of this reant for the monent ....Oh yes ...I am applauding SWEDE for that long list of evidence ...etc...which the CROWN DID IN THIS CASE ...IMO THE CROWN did an EXCELLEnt job OF PRODUCING ....THANKS AGIN SWEDE FOR WHAT i FEEL WAS A GREAT post HERE ....ROBYNHOOD



I thought that I read somewhere recently that Harper said no to even bringing this to the table for discussion. Did anyone else here this? I thought I saw it on a tweet yesterday or the day before on CP24
 
  • #452
  • #453
...interesting THE REPONSES TO MY POST...in the comment that supposively STEVE HARPER said ....parprase from previous thread...." that Steve Harper does not think Ontario people do NOT want to re open the discussion about CAPITaL punishment....stated on Fridays t.V prodcast...I did not see by the way ....IMO ..I say hmmm moment ...there are almost 12,000 Parents / people signatures ...currently on that petition...hmmm I wonder if that is not a VOICE from fellow ontario People ...we shall see ....IMO as I agree STRONGLY with what Rodney ( Tori's dad said) ....I want my daughter's name TORI ...To be remebered as how this changed ONTARIO and made it safer for other children....I shall try and find his video / interview with Adler ...oh and by the way this petition was NOT started by Rodney ...he found out about it after it was started !!!....IMO this even furthers how I think people feel ...especially Parents and teacher of young children ...similar to myself...again IMO ONLY ...robynhood!
 
  • #454
Oh I totally understand what you are saying, I just read this the other day and I thought that it was interesting considering everything that is going on.
 
  • #455
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/12/19623401.html

I watched TLM statement again, this time not as shocking but still very disturbing ... But something still bothers me...

Between TLM description of the second assault and the pic of the back seat seemed a bit unnatural. Any ideas? Can't put my figure on it but something seems odd ...

TLM police statement about 41 minutes in
 
  • #456
  • #457
Do you have the link to the statement? I am trying to find it

Can't link it but I googled TLM police statement and found it in videos.
 
  • #458
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/12/19623401.html

I watched TLM statement again, this time not as shocking but still very disturbing ... But something still bothers me...

Between TLM description of the second assault and the pic of the back seat seemed a bit unnatural. Any ideas? Can't put my figure on it but something seems odd ...

TLM police statement about 41 minutes in

Not sure if I watched the right one, but is it the part where she said she couldnt see Tori?
 
  • #459
...yes all video from the Trial I found last night thru google search & every video that appeared in this trial can still be found ....just did a search for anyone interested in that Interview that Rodney did with Charles Adler was on Wed. March 21, 2012 and MAYBE ... found as it was prodcasted thru Sun News and there was a video ....Imo Rodney talked wonderfully about Tori and how he really wanted to see a change in the possiblity after our life sentence ...an offender not sentenced as a dangerous offender could be let free after 25 years....IMO many people here may be interested in listening ....robynhood ...
 
  • #460
Not sure if I watched the right one, but is it the part where she said she couldnt see Tori?

It is the part where she moves her body to describe MR sitting in the back seat
41:43 minutes in
 
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