Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

[Tink]

Good question Tahorn. To me there are endless points that just don't fit. I have another question: This is to find under evidence picture 69: Chemical indications of blood were detected........., however no blood-like staining was observed. Can somebody please explain this to me? What exactly does that mean?



I don't like that they hardly found any semen and if then it was on the front seat right? Correct me if I am wrong. Well I guess he had sex a million times in his car with all these women.

I really think for the sexual assault is not enough evidence there. unfortunately.



With everything TLM said isn't it kind of strange that the forensic didn't find more? With all these super special testing they have nowadays? I just don't know what to think.

You would find chemical indications of blood but no blood-like staining if, for example, someone cleaned it up or rain washed the bloodstain away after some of the blood had a chance to soak into the material. Nothing visible to the eye, but some of the chemicals that indicate blood are still present, left behind in small amounts.

What you mention about "isn't it strange that forensics didn't find more?" is, I think, what forensic experts call the CSI effect. The TV crime shows that are so popular suggest that forensic testing always gives us all the answers, and so today's jurors (and others) are expecting that every case is going to produce a flood of damning forensic evidence. That's just not how it really is in real-life cases. DNA and other materials degrade pretty quickly, depending on the circumstances. Criminals have learned how to clean up and get rid of evidence that they might have left behind in the past. Just finding a drop of the victim's blood mixed with semen/sperm is a significant find.

It makes sense to me that there is more evidence of semen in the front because he was focused on cleaning up the back, where the assault on Tori took place.

Tink

 

[Sillybilly]

And if MR had a juvie record, it would not be admissible in court. Depending on other records, he may have asked for a pardon and granted one. TLM seems to be more "in your face" while MR seems to be more secretive and cagey. I would think that because MR didn't share information about his life with others, it was because it was not good, full of troubles. Look at how many women he duped and none seemed the wiser he was fooling around not only with one, but many at the same time. MOO

I'm still puzzled by Derstine's question about whether MTR had a criminal record, and the officer's response. It has always been my understanding that a juvenile record cannot be admitted in court (but I can't find anything to back it up or refute it). IF it is true, then the officer could only respond with regard to an adult record. Am thinking that, had he responded wrt a juvenile record, this could have been possible grounds for mistrial?? Dunno

Also, given MTR's relatives seem to go by a different surname, am wondering if MTR could possibly have a record under another surname. Back in the 1990s, someone I knew married a guy (that i had a really BAD gut feeling about). Turned out he was a convicted pedophile (a 2 1/2 year old baby girl). His criminal record didn't come up because somewhere along the line he reversed the order of his Christian names (i.e. instead of MTZS, he gave MZTS).

MOOs

 

[Wondergirl]

Prominent Toronto Attorney Clayton Ruby gives his take on Rafferty's case.

Prominent Toronto defence attorney Clayton Ruby said the decision ultimately rests with Rafferty, and not his lawyer.

"(A lawyer's) job is analyzing the evidence that is already in and seeing whether there is anything you need that can only come from the client," said Ruby, who has more than four decades of experience. "And whether it's worth exposing him to cross-examination, with all its inevitable risks in order for the benefit."

One of the major concerns about an accused testimony is whether or not the jury will like them.

"People reveal themselves. You get to like them or not like them," he said. "People tend to acquit who they like and convict people who they do not like — that's inherent in the jury system."

The defence's job will be to prepare their client at length to go over every possible question they may be asked by prosecutors during cross-examination.

The key is to ensure the accused will not be "surprised" about the "different attacks" the Crown may bring.

In this case, it may also include practicing answers that will not permit the Crown to question Rafferty on his "good character."

"One of the things you prepare him for is to answer the question without doing that," said Ruby. "It's tricky."

It would be rare for a defence team like Rafferty's to not call any evidence, even though it is not required by law.


Read more: http://www.canada.com/Tori+Stafford...gins+Tuesday/6541865/story.html#ixzz1tY1P7VIF

 

[Macright]

MR having a different name from Mother's means diddly squat to me because since we know nothing about his family or his life before this maybe his mother could have remarried or maybe that was her maiden name and MR was born before marriage.. could be the reason he lived with aunt and uncle at some period...who knows..means nothing...also if he did change his name at some point I am sure LE are aware of all of this....JMO

 

[kmclaren]

In view of the totality of the crimes and the horrific nature of them, could any jury member really believe that the 18 year old woman was calling all the shots and the 28 year old man was just tagging along without any control over anything ... even though he was driving the car, he had prior history with the location of the body, he withdrew money moments before the purchase of the murder weapon, he had a knife throughout the crime and the blade of the knife is now missing, the young girl was found half undressed and murdered, he did not report the crime, he attempted to get away with it through lies and manipulation, and so on?

What "nagging question" could the jury have regarding his complicity in the crimes.

I would love to see MR testify. He thinks he's a smart guy, too smart to need a formal education. In fact, he's so stupid he doesn't realize how stupid he is ... so I would really like to see him get on the stand and try to wiggle out of the questions the prosecution has for him. He will self-incriminate in no time. Unfortunately for us, I'm pretty sure his lawyer will not let that happen.

I would love to see him testify too. But, I really just can't imagine him doing so - I'll state that if he does I will be truly shocked. How could he possibly explain his way out of everything and come off as a dupe or TLM's puppet?

 

[Shasta]

I think and this is only my opinion, that MTR's secretiveness (some of his female friends spoke of this) is one characteristic of a psychopath. Along with other traits, such as his compulsive lies, narcism, his indefatigable "charm," manipulation of women, lack of empathy for a suffering child and failure to do the right thing and report the death of the child, i.e. no moral compass. I've alway thought thus of him: dangerous psychopath.

I hope someone writes a book about MTR with all proceeds going to charities for children-when the trial's over.

I wonder what was on his laptop. Did his lawyer object to the Crown presenting the contents of his laptop as evidence? And why? Would it contain items of interest that might prejudice the jury against MTR's character? What would that be? Something more than regular ?

If found guilty of charges, how did he become such a monster? Was he rejected by his natural father? Did he, over time, subsequently displace blame for his lack of a supporting father figure onto his mother and by extension all females? He appears to be so very female-dependant. Did he come to hate most what he depended on most: females? I don't believe he had any respect for women and viewed them only as a means to an end.

I wonder if he found himself in a blended family at one point in his life and became the unloved object of taunts from better-loved step-brothers who considered him weak and substance-less? In his adult life did he have any close male friends or did he consider himself "peerless" in the realm of the masculine? Did his mother over protect him as a means of over compensating for the absence of a reliable father figure? And did he intuit this as wrong and resent her for it? Did he feel unmanned by an all-powerful mother? Was he even able to form close bonds with males? Was he secure in his masculinity?

Or, if he's found guilty, was he just born a psychopath?

JMO, my opinion of TLM is equally low but she's taken the max and this is MTR's trial.

JMO again, two sick twisted psychopaths who enjoyed occasional trips into dark dimensions of cruelty; spoke about their fantasies and carried them out.

Ironically if you compare *what we know* of the backgrounds of TLM and MTR, TLM's background is a recipe for predictable violence, JMO; whereas, MTR's background, or the little we know of it so far, would seem to indicate relative normalcy. Yet, even if his lawyer's claims of his un-involvement in the murder are true, MTR couldn't do the normal thing and report the cruel murder of a child. It seems the person who had the least normal life, TLM, did the more normal thing. I'm not even interested in why she decided to cooperate with LE; I don't think it has much bearing on the facts.

But these two acted together. JMO

 

[Tahorn]

You would find chemical indications of blood but no blood-like staining if, for example, someone cleaned it up or rain washed the bloodstain away after some of the blood had a chance to soak into the material. Nothing visible to the eye, but some of the chemicals that indicate blood are still present, left behind in small amounts.

What you mention about "isn't it strange that forensics didn't find more?" is, I think, what forensic experts call the CSI effect. The TV crime shows that are so popular suggest that forensic testing always gives us all the answers, and so today's jurors (and others) are expecting that every case is going to produce a flood of damning forensic evidence. That's just not how it really is in real-life cases. DNA and other materials degrade pretty quickly, depending on the circumstances. Criminals have learned how to clean up and get rid of evidence that they might have left behind in the past. Just finding a drop of the victim's blood mixed with semen/sperm is a significant find.

It makes sense to me that there is more evidence of semen in the front because he was focused on cleaning up the back, where the assault on Tori took place.

Tink

From TLM description of the assault I would have believed VS blood would also be found where TLM and MR was on the front seat.

 

[Macright]

From TLM description of the assault I would have believed VS blood would also be found where TLM and MR was on the front seat.

even though garbage bags were placed over TS I imagine with the force and the rage of TLM as she swung that hammer, there would have been rips in that bag an blood would have fallen on the shoes of TLM..thus the reason for her throwing away her shoes and putting on a pair of MR's..as we know now his car serve him as a second home and he had lots of items of clothing etc. in there so the fact that his gym bag had extra clothing doesn't surprise me..another thing that makes me go WTH is TLM saying that MR got her to cover up the tracks in the snow...since that laneway was rather long did she in fact follow the car all the way to the highway rubbing out the tire tracks all the way...sounds rather farfetched to me....JMO

 

[crazyladi]

I'm still puzzled by Derstine's question about whether MTR had a criminal record, and the officer's response. It has always been my understanding that a juvenile record cannot be admitted in court (but I can't find anything to back it up or refute it). IF it is true, then the officer could only respond with regard to an adult record. Am thinking that, had he responded wrt a juvenile record, this could have been possible grounds for mistrial?? Dunno

Also, given MTR's relatives seem to go by a different surname, am wondering if MTR could possibly have a record under another surname. Back in the 1990s, someone I knew married a guy (that i had a really BAD gut feeling about). Turned out he was a convicted pedophile (a 2 1/2 year old baby girl). His criminal record didn't come up because somewhere along the line he reversed the order of his Christian names (i.e. instead of MTZS, he gave MZTS).

MOOs

It is funny that you mention this as my daughters father had two names and one wasnt even legal but he was always arrested under that false name and they had it on record. He only started to use his birth name when there was a warrant out for his arrest or legal matters such as child custody etc.

It is plausible that he has used other names

 

[crazyladi]

I think and this is only my opinion, that MTR's secretiveness (some of his female friends spoke of this) is one characteristic of a psychopath. Along with other traits, such as his compulsive lies, narcism, his indefatigable "charm," manipulation of women, lack of empathy for a suffering child and failure to do the right thing and report the death of the child, i.e. no moral compass. I've alway thought thus of him: dangerous psychopath.

I hope someone writes a book about MTR with all proceeds going to charities for children-when the trial's over.

I wonder what was on his laptop. Did his lawyer object to the Crown presenting the contents of his laptop as evidence? And why? Would it contain items of interest that might prejudice the jury against MTR's character? What would that be? Something more than regular ?

If found guilty of charges, how did he become such a monster? Was he rejected by his natural father? Did he, over time, subsequently displace blame for his lack of a supporting father figure onto his mother and by extension all females? He appears to be so very female-dependant. Did he come to hate most what he depended on most: females? I don't believe he had any respect for women and viewed them only as a means to an end.

I wonder if he found himself in a blended family at one point in his his life and became the unloved object of taunts from better-loved step-brothers who considered him weak and substance-less? In his adult life did he have any close male friends or did he consider himself "peerless" in the realm of the masculine? Did his mother over protect him as a means of over compensating for the absence of a reliable father figure? And did he intuit this as wrong and resent her for it? Did he feel unmanned by an all-powerful mother? Was he even able to form close bonds with males? Was he secure in his masculinity?

Or, if he's found guilty, was he just born a psychopath?

JMO, my opinion of TLM is equally low but she's taken the max and this is MTR's trial.

JMO again, two sick twisted psychopaths who enjoyed occasional trips into dark dimensions of cruelty; spoke about their fantasies and carried them out.

Ironically if you compare *what we know* of the backgrounds of TLM and MTR, TLM's background is a recipe for predictable violence, JMO; whereas, MTR's background, or the little we know of it so far, would seem to indicate relative normalcy. Yet, even if his lawyer's claims of his un-involvement in the murder are true, MTR couldn't do the normal thing and report the cruel murder of a child. It seems the person who had the least normal life, TLM, did the more normal thing. I'm not even interested in why she decided to cooperate with LE; I don't think it has much bearing on the facts.

But these two acted together. JMO

This was a great well thought out post. I agree with this 100%

 

[crazyladi]

I am wondering what will come out after the verdict is read. I am just not understanding why there is no information about him anywhere.

If my name was thrown into something like this I would have people spilling the beans on me and you would have my life story in a matter of days.


There is something mysterious about MTR I am sure of it. Something is being hidden.

 

[Tahorn]

It is funny that you mention this as my daughters father had two names and one wasnt even legal but he was always arrested under that false name and they had it on record. He only started to use his birth name when there was a warrant out for his arrest or legal matters such as child custody etc.

It is plausible that he has used other names

TM and VS have different last names too ... So do many mothers and children especially after divorces ... Means nothing

 

[nobodyzgirl]

In view of the totality of the crimes and the horrific nature of them, could any jury member really believe that the 18 year old woman was calling all the shots and the 28 year old man was just tagging along without any control over anything ... even though he was driving the car, he had prior history with the location of the body, he withdrew money moments before the purchase of the murder weapon, he had a knife throughout the crime and the blade of the knife is now missing, the young girl was found half undressed and murdered, he did not report the crime, he attempted to get away with it through lies and manipulation, and so on?

What "nagging question" could the jury have regarding his complicity in the crimes.

I would love to see MR testify. He thinks he's a smart guy, too smart to need a formal education. In fact, he's so stupid he doesn't realize how stupid he is ... so I would really like to see him get on the stand and try to wiggle out of the questions the prosecution has for him. He will self-incriminate in no time. Unfortunately for us, I'm pretty sure his lawyer will not let that happen.

BBM

It is actually not up to his lawyer. MR has the final say on whether or not he will take the stand, his lawyer can advise against him taking the stand, though if MR wants to take the stand, there is nothing Derstine can do to stop it.

 

[Tahorn]

I am wondering what will come out after the verdict is read. I am just not understanding why there is no information about him anywhere.

If my name was thrown into something like this I would have people spilling the beans on me and you would have my life story in a matter of days.


There is something mysterious about MTR I am sure of it. Something is being hidden.

Publication Ban ...

 

[Tahorn]

even though garbage bags were placed over TS I imagine with the force and the rage of TLM as she swung that hammer, there would have been rips in that bag an blood would have fallen on the shoes of TLM..thus the reason for her throwing away her shoes and putting on a pair of MR's..as we know now his car serve him as a second home and he had lots of items of clothing etc. in there so the fact that his gym bag had extra clothing doesn't surprise me..another thing that makes me go WTH is TLM saying that MR got her to cover up the tracks in the snow...since that laneway was rather long did she in fact follow the car all the way to the highway rubbing out the tire tracks all the way...sounds rather farfetched to me....JMO

Also TLM coat, I believe she threw away because it was covered in blood from her attacking VS and not because MR cleaned himself off with it ...

 

[crazyladi]

Publication Ban ...

Yes but wont that all come out after?

 

[crazyladi]

TM and VS have different last names too ... So do many mothers and children especially after divorces ... Means nothing

I understand that but couldnt it be possible that he used different name for possible other crimes? This is where I was going with that.

 

[Macright]

I understand that but couldnt it be possible that he used different name for possible other crimes? This is where I was going with that.

don't they finger print in Canada when someone is picked up for a crime...if so his fingerprints would have been on file and bingo....JMO so this leads me to believe that he has never been picked up or charged with other crimes...I would hate to think that Canada's finest would have missed that....JMO

 

[crazyladi]

don't they finger print in Canada when someone is picked up for a crime...if so his fingerprints would have been on file and bingo....JMO so this leads me to believe that he has never been picked up or charged with other crimes...I would hate to think that Canada's finest would have missed that....JMO

How many times have police pulled people over or have pulled up their supposed name in the police car only to find out there is no record. People lie and it depends on the offence, some police let people go without arresting them.

All in all I dont think it matters if he has a record at all. You could be someone with a record a mile long but never kill someone or you could be like PB no record and kill 3 people..... JMO

 

[Macright]

Yes but wont that all come out after?

maybe if a certain journalist (and I use that handle loosely) decides to write her take on this...I understand the publication ban in force now but at the start when all of this was transpiring we read a lot about TLM..but nothing about MR... I remember at the time when TLM was taking her daily airings in the chopper that TM at her daily news conference mentioned that TLM was only taking advantage of the nice weather and the chopper rides and maybe a MacDonalds thrown in on the side...it seems she did not believe TLM at that time....JMO