Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

[gardenia]

do we know if VS was pushed into the car by TLM? is that on video?

 

[roseofsharon]

do we know if VS was pushed into the car by TLM? is that on video?

According to the following, TLM pushed TS into the back seat and MR told TLM to hurry up. (paraphrasing). Doesn't sound like babysitting to me.

MOO


http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ed+tori+into+the+car&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

 

[robynhood]

There is an education Law in ontario for safe exit of all elementary children ...kids must be signed out of school if they are not the usual person taking children from school property ....schools have teachers on Duty 15 min before and after school watching the school property ! ...as I mentioned above ....All posters who are PARENTS are aware...!

common sense here too ...I am sure Tori made her wishes loud and clear that she wanted to" go Home " ...2 Hour car ride ...omg ..IMO ...I think I better leave here till Tuesday ....OMG robynhood

 

[antiquegirl]

One thing that stuck out for me from the Genest videos, was that TLM still tries to maintain control over her surroundings.

She came into the room, with a bit of swagger in her step, initiated most of the physical contact with MR, and at the end of the video.............when the support worker (or whatever they call them at Genest), gestured for TLM to head back to the room............TLM ignored her and wandered back to the window and had a chat with the worker.

There was proof of further manipulation of experienced guards in prison, as TLM succeeded in using the system to allow her to be alone with an inmate she had a grievance with............so she could beat her.

I don't understand the concept that MR was able to control TLM, and succeeding where years of probation officers, counselors, school officials, custody officials, social workers, and whatever parental control she had experienced over her inglorious life..............had failed so miserably.

If MR did indeed control TLM.........he succeeded where so many others had failed.

JMO............

(RSBM)

ITA. Not only that, but somehow TLM managed to extend the length of her visits with MTR to double what is normally allowed. This struck me as kind of odd.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court /
Visits are allowed at Genest. Visitors must be approved, visitors must call in to book a time. They're generally a half hour.

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP
Cushing-Mitchener said visits to inmates have to approved and scheduled ahead of time - usually 30 minutes

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court /
Rafferty visited on May 8th and May 12th. Visit on the 8th lasted about an hour.

The May 12th visit lasted just under an hour, as well.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/25/19679806.html

JMO

 

[Flossie JMO]

do we know if VS was pushed into the car by TLM? is that on video?

do we know if VS was pushed into the car by TLM? is that on video?

JMO, no we don't, and no, it's not

 

[Flossie JMO]

According to the following, TLM pushed TS into the back seat and MR told TLM to hurry up. (paraphrasing). Doesn't sound like babysitting to me.

MOO


http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ed+tori+into+the+car&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

JMO, bs

I don't believe a word she said JMO

 

[otto]

JMO, bs

I don't believe a word she said JMO

Should we assume that everything said by the confessed murderer is a lie, including her confession, and that everything claimed by her accomplice - that he had no idea what was going on the entire time Victoria was in his car, assaulted and murdered - is true?

 

[roseofsharon]

MR and TLM are both the consumate liars and the jury has their work cut out for them in deciding what is fact and what is fiction.



MOO

 

[otto]

The Crown has presented a lot of evidence which is FACT. Tori was, indeed, found without her clothing from the waist down - that is a FACT. Tori's blood was mixed with semen (FACT) in MR's car (FACT). Tori was beaten and hidden (FACT). MR lied to LE about what he knew (FACT) and he lied about how well he knew TLM (FACT). MR continued to see TLM (FACT) and even continued to hug her and hold hands with her (FACTS).

There is audio of MR lying to LE. Those are facts. So we do know some facts - it is the inferences we make from those facts that differs - but not the facts themselves.

If you interpret these facts to mean there are no facts, that's fine. But these are facts and everybody is entitled to interpret them however they wish.

I could NOT agree more fully! .............I MUST BRING UP THE TOTALITY and I am not SAying it Just releated to this TRIAL>>>>I FEEL STRONGLY as a teacher in Ontario and a PARENT >>>>IMO strong opinion with knowledge PROFESSIoNALLY>>>>>Every spring at least ONCE a year for My 20 Years of teaching I am required to sit my young class down and Hand out ....WARNING letters for the school community That there has been a CAR STALKING the small town I teach in....Our school board ...LARGEST IN ONTARIO sends out warnings when there is a supicious car lurking in the area .....the children are told this letter is URGENT and should be given to their parents and we warn the kids not to talk to strangers or go near unknown cars!!!!! ....most parents often now.... have internet news weekly >>>>But we still hand out letters .... and the Police are notified ....I am posting this for a reason ....Rodney strafford wishes are a change in Ontario law for all our children ...I hope all has considered this....more info online ...I better not say more as websleuthers may not like where I am leading this too....robynhood!

Isn't Tori's Law about reinstating capital punishment?

"Prime Minister Stephen Harper says opening the debate on capital punishment is a non-starter, despite this week's outcry from Canadians horrified by details of the Tori Stafford case.

"I don't think there is a public consensus on the death penalty," Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Friday. "I don't think the public wants to reopen the debate and I don't intend to reopen the debate."

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/16/pm-wont-open-capital-punishment-debate

That's the end of that ... there will be no new law to re-instate capital punishment in Canada for any reason.

 

[otto]

MR and TLM are both the consumate liars and the jury has their work cut out for them in deciding what is fact and what is fiction.

MOO

Isn't that always the case when someone is accused of a crime? He/she lies and investigators gather evidence to expose the lies. It doesn't make sense to me to assume that one half of a murderous couple is lying (even though she confessed to the murder) and that the other half is telling the truth (even though the evidence suggests otherwise).

 

[flipflop]

yes all the money for the expensive clothes, drugs, gas....she had to know it was illegal behavior; unless lordy knows maybe she thought he taught dancing every day.MOO

wonders what he told the neighbours about whether he was employed or not; and wonder what the mother told others about whether he worked or not. MOO

I am pages behind....and trying to catch up.

Perhaps MR had the wool pulled over his mothers eyes just as he did with all the women that he was dating. They all seemed to think that he was working at some job or other. Some stated he was doing construction, others teaching dance, odd jobs, etc, when in fact he had no job. So maybe his mother was told (by him) that he was doing odd jobs and earning cash under the table to make his car payments etc.

As for his past...even his gf's have stated that he did not talk of his past and no one seems to know anything. TLM's seems to have talked about her past to friends etc. I remember very early articles from her neighbours stating that she had been in foster care, told the story of her real mother giving her up etc. For whatever reason MR has skeletons in the closet and even those close to him (his gf's) did not even know any details of his past.

 

[snoofer]

do we know if VS was pushed into the car by TLM? is that on video?

the entry point to the vehicle at the nursing care home what not at an angle to see on video. MOO

 

[Flossie JMO]

Should we assume that everything said by the confessed murderer is a lie, including her confession, and that everything claimed by her accomplice - that he had no idea what was going on the entire time Victoria was in his car, assaulted and murdered - is true?

jmo, I wouldn't assume anything. JMO we can all believe what we choose to. JMO

 

[snoofer]

I am pages behind....and trying to catch up.

Perhaps MR had the wool pulled over his mothers eyes just as he did with all the women that he was dating. They all seemed to think that he was working at some job or other. Some stated he was doing construction, others teaching dance, odd jobs, etc, when in fact he had no job. So maybe his mother was told (by him) that he was doing odd jobs and earning cash under the table to make his car payments etc.

As for his past...even his gf's have stated that he did not talk of his past and no one seems to know anything. TLM's seems to have talked about her past to friends etc. I remember very early articles from her neighbours stating that she had been in foster care, told the story of her real mother giving her up etc. For whatever reason MR has skeletons in the closet and even those close to him (his gf's) did not even know any details of his past.

In general school records are sealed and mental health records are sealed as well as medical. MOO Privacy is taken very seriously in this country. MOO We are not privy to any info from any of those places; and most certainly not to be released to general public.

 

[Flossie JMO]

I am pages behind....and trying to catch up.

Perhaps MR had the wool pulled over his mothers eyes just as he did with all the women that he was dating. They all seemed to think that he was working at some job or other. Some stated he was doing construction, others teaching dance, odd jobs, etc, when in fact he had no job. So maybe his mother was told (by him) that he was doing odd jobs and earning cash under the table to make his car payments etc.

As for his past...even his gf's have stated that he did not talk of his past and no one seems to know anything. TLM's seems to have talked about her past to friends etc. I remember very early articles from her neighbours stating that she had been in foster care, told the story of her real mother giving her up etc. For whatever reason MR has skeletons in the closet and even those close to him (his gf's) did not even know any details of his past.

bbm, jmo, we don't know that. it may be true, but we do not know imo

 

[otto]

(RSBM)

ITA. Not only that, but somehow TLM managed to extend the length of her visits with MTR to double what is normally allowed. This struck me as kind of odd.

The May 12th visit lasted just under an hour, as well.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/25/19679806.html

JMO

I think that, given the suspicions about TLM's involvement in the murder of a young child, exceptions would be made when she had visitors ... if only to observe who wanted to stay longer, what the interactions were like, the frequency of visits and so on.

 

[Flossie JMO]

gotta fly, sorry, fiance home. Have a good night all

 

[roseofsharon]

Isn't that always the case when someone is accused of a crime? He/she lies and investigators gather evidence to expose the lies. It doesn't make sense to me to assume that one half of a murderous couple is lying (even though she confessed to the murder) and that the other half is telling the truth (even though the evidence suggests otherwise).

Are investigators really able to gather all the evidence??? IMO, there is much more to this story that will never be revealed and since MR and TLM are both liars, IMO, it will be interesting to see what version of the events on April 8, 2009, the jury will believe. That's all. MOO

 

[roseofsharon]

MR didn't have permission to be with VS, but he may have thought TLM did.

If it was not his intent to kidnap VS, or sexually assault her..........there can be no finding of first degree murder, because TLM has confessed to the murder.

Therefore what MR's intentions were relating to the abduction are the most important part of the case.

If the defense can show evidence that TLM abducted VS for her own reasons, that would provide support for a lack of intent by MR.

JMO...............

Exactly, and all dependent on what the jury believes! MOO

 

[Oldsoul2]

yes all the money for the expensive clothes, drugs, gas....she had to know it was illegal behavior; unless lordy knows maybe she thought he taught dancing every day.MOO

wonders what he told the neighbours about whether he was employed or not; and wonder what the mother told others about whether he worked or not. MOO

I really wonder if the defense is going to try and gain sympathy from the jurors as part of their defense tactic. I say this because Derstine hasn't denied he was there but making him a "victim" to this crime. Since alot of his dirty laundry has come out in regards to his lifestyle, the only way I can foresee the jury buying (which I think they won't regardless) this victimhood is by the defense trying to portray little boy blue, how unfortunate his life has been for him etc....