weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[snoofer]

An even more radical thinker might say he shat his pants at what SHE had done. And she immediately started saying why he had better help her do what she says OR ELSE. A good imagination could think of all kinds of things she could hold over his head. (excluding her rape story) JMO

imagination does not equal reasonable doubt. :beamup:
JMO

 

[snoofer]

Wonder if the aunt or uncle will be called upon? :waitasec:

in the beginning the family were supportive of him; wonder if they still are. Either way this has to be extremely difficult for them all. JMO

 

[snoofer]

anything for a "piece" I guess....I don't call that misrepresentation...that's too big of a word for MR to know..... I would call that just plain lies to suit the situation....who knows...maybe he was constipated a lot and thought he had something major wrong with him.... still doesn't make him a murderer or rapist...I need more than that to convince me...:moo:

the measure of a good man is not in what they say; but in what they DO on a consistent basis.:moo:

MTR = :nuts:

 

[snoofer]

People lie all the time. They lie about everything.

Politicians lie before they get elected...........just to get elected.

How many people have ever told someone their newborn baby is butt ugly?

Teenagers lie all the time...........it's normal.

If you look at the profiles on the dating sites, I guarantee you won't see too many that say.............

Older guy, balding, good sized pot belly, average income enjoys watching television, drinking beer, no long term ambitions, but a special fondness for pickled eggs.

JMO

well now

 

[matou]

Speaking of drug addict. MR wasn't new to oxys according to the one woman who dated him and said they were inseparable. She said he was taking oxys then 2005-2007 IIRC. BA said she had been supplying MR for about a year or so...:waitasec: I would love to know where he got all his money for drugs, clothing, gas, insurance on his car, paying for dates (then again probably dutch treat or he let the ladies foot the bill). Oh yes he did mooch off mommy and couch surfed between girls or friends. Drug dealing? I now recall a couple of reports where he told people he had a bad back. Colon cancer? CCP disability? Where is that lie list. :waitasec: :moo:

By the way Snoof and Sailor Bug that's terrific you started a MR lie list. I see it's pretty big for just starting it. :blowkiss: Anyone found more lies for TLM's list?

Well one girlfriend has stated that money went missing from her account in 2006.

Another former girlfriend described Rafferty as having aggressive sexual interests and a secretive personality.
"He never had any money and I would always pay for things," said Jennifer Etsell, a single mom in Hanover who met Rafferty through an online dating service in 2006. "He started lying about things (and) he was always very secretive.
"I didn't meet any of his friends. He wouldn't talk about any of his past relationships."
His interest in what she called "rough sex" and bondage -- he became angry when rebuffed -- strained the relationship. She ended it after $2,000 disappeared from her bank account.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/21/9520751-sun.html

 

[maxfactor]

So funny I also found a bunch of co-workers wearing the same name tags, from the same mystery theatre. Scroll down to see ...

http://dentistryonyorkville.com/blog/

I think that particular picture of him was shown to the jury because of "Mychol", I think in the coming days it will become apparent why LE thought that was important.:moo:

 

[Flossie JMO]

I am curious about how to pick and choose what to believe from both MR and TLM. If both are being called liars, why believe either, including him when he allegedly said to one woman that he had been in trouble a lot as a kid? MR's lies have been laid out over the last while.

All we have so far, and yes I know that doesn't mean he just wasn't caught for things he had done, or sealed due to age: "Under cross-examination, Darmon said Rafferty had no criminal record when his name was brought to the attention of the police around the time of Tori's disappearance."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/03/23/stafford-rafferty-trial-friday.html

I saw earlier discussions about violence, revenge, and rape.

We don't know about MR. But what we have read aboUt TLM:

"Before Derstine ended his cross-examination of McClintic, jurors heard about another incident from her troubled past: As a child she put a dog in a microwave, but made up a story that the animal had been injured by another neighbourhood dog and had to be put down.

People accepted the story because no one could believe that McClintic "could be so cruel to such an innocent," Derstine said."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/03/23/stafford-rafferty-trial-friday.html


"On Thursday, Rafferty’s defence lawyer, Dirk Derstine read out passages from McClintic’s journal where she described herself as a “cold-blooded killer.” In one entry, she fantasized about cleaning up a murder scene and being able to smile the next day. In another, she talked in graphic detail about torture and raping people with rusty knives and razor blades."

"On Wednesday, McClintic was grilled about several graphic letters she had written to a friend between 2007 and 2008 in which she described herself as a gangster who wanted to torture and physically harm those who have wronged her."

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...ntic-tori-stafford-trial-violent-diary-rants/


In one reference, she talked about being a "vampire in heat" who had dreamt of "slaughtering someone, ripping someone" out bone by bone.

In another, she talked about kidnapping someone on the side of the road, mutilating them so she could "smash their skull apart and put it back together like a puzzle."

Rafferty's defence lawyer Dirk Derstine pointedly questioned McClintic on whether she sought to hurt those who did her wrong, or as the letters suggested, hurt others connected to these people.

"I would agree that I had anger issues and I did seek out to hurt those . . . as I had seen it, hurt or anger me in some form or another," she replied

While in youth custody, McClintic told the court she took prescription drugs including Prozac and often got into scraps with other inmates. One time, she hurt her hand while punching into a wall.

In one of the letters, she had talked about shooting a pregnant inmate in the face. In another, she said she wanted to "take out" another inmate's whole family when she got out of the youth detention centre.

"I may have meant at that time what I was saying," she testified. "I was younger at the time and this was years ago."

The court also heard that McClintic had assaulted her mother on two separate occasions in the past.

http://www.canada.com/news/Tori+Sta...fore+abduction+court+hears/6335725/story.html

This part I have thought about, and what she possibly may have really meant imo by the part that is bbm:

When Rafferty killed Tori, kicking her, stomping on her and hitting her in the head several times with a hammer, it seemed like "he knew what he was doing," McClintic tells Ontario Provincial Police Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth.

"I felt at the point of tears a lot, and I didn't want him to see that. I didn't want him to see any of that," she said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/0...nne-police-video-interrogation_n_1371897.html

Several parts of her story have always puzzled me, and frankly don't ring true to me. I don't have the exact wording here, maybe someone can help. Where she stated Tori needed to use the washroom so she went and got her from the car, held her hand and chatted and told her she was brave, and Tori said brave like her or something, and then went pee. She then walked her back to the car to be raped again. Somehow I don't believe this is possible. At all. JMO

Another would be where she allegedly saw Tori being assaulted in detail, and then all of a sudden little Tori was now out of the car and lying on the ground. I do believe where she stated she was in "a rage" prior to starting to attack Tori and that she "savagely murdered that little girl". JMO

The issue of her being too high, or high out of her mind etc. I don't believe for a minute that she would have many of the details and locations if she was out of her tree. JMO

JMO I also don't believe it was random. JMO

 

[tmhco]

I am curious about how to pick and choose what to believe from both MR and TLM. If both are being called liars, why believe either, including him when he allegedly said to one woman that he had been in trouble a lot as a kid? MR's lies have been laid out over the last while.

All we have so far, and yes I know that doesn't mean he just wasn't caught for things he had done, or sealed due to age: "Under cross-examination, Darmon said Rafferty had no criminal record when his name was brought to the attention of the police around the time of Tori's disappearance."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/03/23/stafford-rafferty-trial-friday.html

I saw earlier discussions about violence, revenge, and rape.

We don't know about MR. But what we have read aboUt TLM:

"Before Derstine ended his cross-examination of McClintic, jurors heard about another incident from her troubled past: As a child she put a dog in a microwave, but made up a story that the animal had been injured by another neighbourhood dog and had to be put down.

People accepted the story because no one could believe that McClintic "could be so cruel to such an innocent," Derstine said."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/03/23/stafford-rafferty-trial-friday.html


"On Thursday, Rafferty’s defence lawyer, Dirk Derstine read out passages from McClintic’s journal where she described herself as a “cold-blooded killer.” In one entry, she fantasized about cleaning up a murder scene and being able to smile the next day. In another, she talked in graphic detail about torture and raping people with rusty knives and razor blades."

"On Wednesday, McClintic was grilled about several graphic letters she had written to a friend between 2007 and 2008 in which she described herself as a gangster who wanted to torture and physically harm those who have wronged her."

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...ntic-tori-stafford-trial-violent-diary-rants/


In one reference, she talked about being a "vampire in heat" who had dreamt of "slaughtering someone, ripping someone" out bone by bone.

In another, she talked about kidnapping someone on the side of the road, mutilating them so she could "smash their skull apart and put it back together like a puzzle."

Rafferty's defence lawyer Dirk Derstine pointedly questioned McClintic on whether she sought to hurt those who did her wrong, or as the letters suggested, hurt others connected to these people.

"I would agree that I had anger issues and I did seek out to hurt those . . . as I had seen it, hurt or anger me in some form or another," she replied

While in youth custody, McClintic told the court she took prescription drugs including Prozac and often got into scraps with other inmates. One time, she hurt her hand while punching into a wall.

In one of the letters, she had talked about shooting a pregnant inmate in the face. In another, she said she wanted to "take out" another inmate's whole family when she got out of the youth detention centre.

"I may have meant at that time what I was saying," she testified. "I was younger at the time and this was years ago."

The court also heard that McClintic had assaulted her mother on two separate occasions in the past.

http://www.canada.com/news/Tori+Sta...fore+abduction+court+hears/6335725/story.html

This part I have thought about, and what she possibly may have really meant imo by the part that is bbm:

When Rafferty killed Tori, kicking her, stomping on her and hitting her in the head several times with a hammer, it seemed like "he knew what he was doing," McClintic tells Ontario Provincial Police Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth.

"I felt at the point of tears a lot, and I didn't want him to see that. I didn't want him to see any of that," she said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/0...nne-police-video-interrogation_n_1371897.html

Several parts of her story have always puzzled me, and frankly don't ring true to me. I don't have the exact wording here, maybe someone can help. Where she stated Tori needed to use the washroom so she went and got her from the car, held her hand and chatted and told her she was brave, and Tori said brave like her or something, and then went pee. She then walked her back to the car to be raped again. Somehow I don't believe this is possible. At all. JMO

Another would be where she allegedly saw Tori being assaulted in detail, and then all of a sudden little Tori was now out of the car and lying on the ground. I do believe where she stated she was in "a rage" prior to starting to attack Tori and that she "savagely murdered that little girl". JMO

The issue of her being too high, or high out of her mind etc. I don't believe for a minute that she would have many of the details and locations if she was out of her tree. JMO

JMO I also don't believe it was random. JMO

I have no idea if it was random or not. Both if them had ties to Tori. For myself, as the crown stated, so many of the details of the TLM version have been proven true.

I also am not buying the " innocent dupe" theory. The only motive for taking a young child to a a remote area (that HE was familiar with) is for sexual purposes. I see no other reasonable explanation. JMO

 

[~n/t~]

Deep within the fabric of a gym bag found in his car, miniscule flakes of Michael Rafferty’s blood mingled with the blood flakes of Victoria Stafford

On the rubber moulding of the rear passenger side door, the eight-year-old girl left a 3 mm by 5 mm smear of blood.

On the back and side of the front passenger seat, Rafferty’s semen mixed with the blood of one of his girlfriends at the time, Terri-Lynne McClintic.

On the lower back of the driver’s seat, he left another tiny fragment of his semen.

Microscopic analysis provided astronomical odds — from one in 28 billion, to one in 150 trillion — that Rafferty, McClintic and Victoria left DNA evidence of their presence in Rafferty’s 2003 Honda Civic, a jury heard Wednesday.

But while science dominated Day 20 of Rafferty’s murder trial, it ended with a sudden moment of drama when a former childhood friend, who became a girlfriend, testified.

Alexis Lane, 30, testified she knew Rafferty in their small town of Drayton, near Mount Forest, Ont., from Grade 6 on, and went out with him from Feb. 22 to April 1, 2009.

That’s the same time period, Rafferty was going out with McClintic.

Lane’s testimony was brief, confirming that when she went out with Rafferty, his Honda Civic had a complete back seat.

All bolded by me as a reminder that not only do we have CE we have forensics in this case.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/...don/raffertytrial/2012/04/11/pf-19618341.html

 

[Flossie JMO]

Well I don't know what we will hear from the defence. Much of the forensics imo will be discussed, the defence had strong points on that imo. They don't prove he raped or murdered Tori. He's guilty for sure, but it's not clear of exactly what at this point. Covering up the disgusting brutal murder and abandonning the beautiful innocent Tori in bags under a pile of rocks for sure. Torturing her big brother and her parents and family and friends who loved her and prayed and begged for her return. Horrific. They will never recover imo. Beyond that it has not been proven imo. I also don't feel regardless of the trial's outcome that there will be justice for Tori. That can never happen. There is no justice for what that angel went through imo.

 

[Shasta]

swedie,

Here's a JE from Hanover for your MTR GF list.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/21/9520751-sun.html

 

[Flossie JMO]

I have no idea if it was random or not. Both if them had ties to Tori. For myself, as the crown stated, so many of the details of the TLM version have been proven true.

I also am not buying the " innocent dupe" theory. The only motive for taking a young child to a a remote area (that HE was familiar with) is for sexual purposes. I see no other reasonable explanation. JMO

JMO it may well have been for sexual purposes, we don't know yet, and sexual purposes by TLM or MR, or both, is also not known IMO. I am very interested in what the defence will put forward, and if drugs are a part of it. JMO

 

[tmhco]

JMO it may well have been for sexual purposes, we don't know yet, and sexual purposes by TLM or MR, or both, is also not known IMO. I am very interested in what the defence will put forward, and if drugs are a part of it. JMO

Yes, maybe if Mr. Rafferty would have graced us with his version of events, we all might be better informed. JMO

 

[Flowercb]

I fail to see how the parade of ladies on the witness stand today show us how MR manipulated and used women...they put themselves out there for the taking by joining the same dating site...none of the affairs lasted that long and if what has been posted today by some on this site, most dropped him like a hot cake for whatever reasons... it takes two to consent to sex after one date or two...most probably saw through him and decided he wasn't much of a catch...this does not convinced me that he manipulated his dates... I feel sorry for that one female with two teenage children having to relate that they slept together after such a short time...:moo::moo:

I respectfully disagree. He overlapped the relationships, lied to them about everything and dated a lot of these women days or during the time he had been "allegedly"--involved in Tori's abduction/murder. Can anyone add anything else to this?:what::twocents:

 

[antiquegirl]

RD.. MR dated her when she was 17. He would have been in his 20s. Um... so he was driving around back roads, going to secluded areas, getting out of the car and having sex with a minor...

On the opposite end of the age spectrum, he was dating (and I assume sleeping with) women who were significantly older than him.

He didn't discriminate much, did he? :moo:

(RSBM)

Actually, they met when she was 17, but she testified that they didn't start going out until after her 18th birthday. I haven't yet read the Tweets, but LFP was mistaken. I was at the trial yesterday and took notes. HTH

But, I agree that he wasn't very discriminating in his choices - in either age or appearance (unless their appearances have changed drastically over the past three years). The 50 year-old mother of six threw me for a loop!

JMO

 

[Flowercb]

You stated that the Mysteriously Yours photo was taken in the same time frame as BA said he had a cold sore. neither of the links you have provided backs up that statement. One is a picture of MR (that could have been taken at anytime. Maybe he was a mysteriously yours junkie) and the other is...completely unrelated. Thanks though.

Yeah. Good line to describe MR, "mysteriously yours"--He might as well added, "everyting about me is a mystery and a lie!":floorlaugh: I can think of some pretty good <modsnipped> lines that would also do him justice--or sorry suit him. Justice is something I am anxiously awaiting for Tori!:moo:

 

[Flowercb]

(RSBM)

Actually, they met when she was 17, but she testified that they didn't start going out until after her 18th birthday. I haven't yet read the Tweets, but LFP was mistaken. I was at the trial yesterday and took notes. HTH

But, I agree that he wasn't very discriminating in his choices - in either age or appearance (unless their appearances have changed drastically over the past three years). The 50 year-old mother of six threw me for a loop!

JMO

Antiquegirl, is there a characteristic/pattern with these women which you may have noticed by their appearance or actions in the court room. We can only go by the snippets of tweets that were posted. Did they make you see something in them that MTR might find appealing? I don't know if you are allowed to answer this question but it sure is thought provoking:moo:

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Yes, maybe if Mr. Rafferty would have graced us with his version of events, we all might be better informed. JMO

Well, given his propensity for lying, he'd no doubt lie about his version of events.... oh wait, he's already lied to his lawyers! JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I just caught up and I just want to comment on some of MTRs behavior that is quite telling to me.

I think that talking with others, especially someone who has a daughter that was a playmate of Tory's, is the absolute last thing someone who was forced to participate in the abduction would do.

If MTR was forced to help TLM cover up her crime you would think that he would be consumed with guilt. If that were the case you would think that he would go out of his way to avoid even thinking about what he had been apart of. But he didn't. He had one of her missing flyers in his home and he talked about the abduction with people.

And one more thing, if we are to believe the defence's alternate scenario, TLM would have been responsible for his involvement in it all, yet when he spoke of TLM he talked about wanting to help her. It doesn't fit.

 

[Macright]

ah Antiquegirl..so nice to see you back posting...missed your sensible and impartial input on this case... I know you can't actually describe on this site, those women that took the stand yesterday but it is not too difficult to conjure up images...I guess they have had their fifteen minutes of fame... I see none of them as "victims"..just women putting themselves out there on a dating site...I guess you could say "ya takes your chances"..