What do JonBenet's clothes say?

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

It has been firmly established in the interview between Tom Haney and Patsy Ramsey, in a foregoing post on this thread, that it was JonBenet's nightgown and not a doll's nightgown.

Thanks BlueCrab, I'll take your word for it. Now what do you know about the white size 12/14 panties with printed rosebuds on it and 'Wednesday' on the waistband? Do you think they have found the packet that it came from? And if so where?

 

[BlueCrab]

Thanks BlueCrab, I'll take your word for it. Now what do you know about the white size 12/14 panties with printed rosebuds on it and 'Wednesday' on the waistband? Do you think they have found the packet that it came from? And if so where?

aussiesheila,

Yes, the cops had the package of Bloomi's because there were never any police questions asking Patsy where they were.

I know that Patsy lied when she said the size 12/14 underwear were in JonBenet's underwear drawer in her bathroom. There were 15 pairs of size 4 and size 6 underwear in the drawer, but no size 12/14's. Therefore, prior to the murder the package had to have been put away unopened somewhere in JonBenet's bedroom. The size 12/14's, which were rolled up and packaged individually in a larger package, were day-of-the-week underwear, so there had to be six left in the package since the seventh pair (Wednesday) was found on JonBenet's dead body.

The cops quizzed Patsy long and hard about the size 12/14's, which she admits she had bought in New York for her 12-year-old niece Jenny as a gift, but she was non-responsive to the questions and Lin Wood continually interfered with speeches. It was like pulling teeth while trying to get information from Patsy. Patsy finally responded to one question:

ATTORNEY BRUCE LEVIN: "Do you have any recollection of ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Not specifically."

Patsy's response could be taken as a NO, so that means JonBenet had likely never worn any of the size 12/14 underwear prior to the murder.

BlueCrab

 

[why_nutt]

Fact: when cloth is wrapped around a fist and tightened around a person's neck, V-shaped and triangular bruises result. I have pictures from MEDICOLEGAL INVESTIGATION OF DEATH to prove it. Would you like to see them?

This picture has a somewhat unusual aspect to it. Let it serve as a test. Evaluate this picture and give your impressions of how you would explain the marks.

 

[MlazyV]

That one edge is so straight it looks like she was being held against a countertop during the strangulation.

 

[aussiesheila]

Thanks very much for all the information about the underwear, BlueCrab.

But now I am going to post the sequence of clothing that I think JonBenet wore on the 25th and 26th which fits in with MY theory.

I know you will just hate it.

wears to Whites ---
--- white gap top
--- ? black velvet vest
--- size 6 panties
--- black velvet pants
--- ? tights

wears to bed ---
--- white gap top
--- same size 6 panties
--- white longjohns

Santa collects from bedroom while he is up there with Patsy getting JonBenet up for the ‘photographer’ ---
--- Barbie nightgown
--- size 12/14 panties from packet in drawer in bedroom to wear under her nightgown while she is being ‘photographed’ because he didn’t know she already had a pair on under her longjohns
--- at least 2 hairties and 1 ribbon to make her hair look pretty for the ‘photographer’

JonBenet carried down to kitchen by Patsy wearing ---
--- white gap top
--- same size 6 panties
--- white longjohns
--- little white blanket wrapped around shoulders

JonBenet is taken to basement and is prepared ‘for photographer’ ---
--- white gap top is removed and she is redressed in Barbie nightgown
--- hair is tied up with 1 hair tie and ribbon at top of head
--- she urinates on size 6 panties and longjohns
--- longjohns removed

later abuse ---
--- Barbie nightgown
--- size 6 panties removed
--- hair tied up with extra 1 hair tie to get it out of the way of the
ligature rope
--- Barbie nightgown gets bloodstained just before she is killed

she is wiped down with size 6 panties and someone’s handkerchief then redressed in ---
--- white gap top
--- size 12/14 panties which get a few drops of blood on after death
--- urinate stained longjohns

body wrapped in little white blanket
Barbie nightgown placed beside body

size 6 panties and handkerchief used in cleanup removed from crime scene

 

[BlueCrab]

Barbie nightgown gets bloodstained just before she is killed

aussiesheila,

There were no bloodstains on the Barbie nightgown.

 

[Toltec]

I had said the Barbie nightgown was for JonBenet, and not for a Barbie doll.



From the 1998 interviews while reviewing crime scene photos:

PATSY RAMSEY: "It is her Barbie nightgown."

TOM HANEY: "Is that hers or her Barbie doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you know?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Well, she didn't wear it that night because she had her -- she had the long underwear pants and her little white shirt. And the night before on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little (inaudible) that was under her pillow."

BlueCrab

"And the night before on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little (inaudible) that was under her pillow."

There was a picture of her pink pajama top at the head of the bed...but the pillow was at the foot of the bed....so how could she say the pajamas were under the pillow?

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy may have been speaking in past tense. Since JonBenet was wearing those pink pijamas on xmas day.

This is Patsy confirming that she knew the pink pijamas should have been located under her pillow on xmas night. Since thats likely where they resided most nights.

But she could not find JonBenet's night clothes on xmas night, so decided white longjohns would do just fine.

Just she offered a tiff as the reason as to why the red turtleneck is lying bundled on the counter.

The pillow in the bedroom may have been disturbed by anyone going into the room, a lot of the pictures were taken after many people had been in and out.

 

[sissi]

aussiesheila,

There were no bloodstains on the Barbie nightgown.

Are you sure? I believed the dnax was found on the Barbie doll's nightgown.

Was this an "insinuation" in ..I think?..Beckner's depo?

 

[sissi]

A Well, back up a minute. There is more
23 than one sample of DNA. So specifically what are you
24 referring to?
25 Q Well, as I understand it, there is DNA and


121

1 I don't want to get technical here, but I understand
2 there was DNA found, foreign DNA, found under the
3 fingernails on JonBent's left and right hands; am I
4 right?
5 A Okay. Yes.
6 Q As I understand it, there was foreign DNA
7 found either on -- I'll just say on her underwear?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, I'm not aware as I sit here of any
10 other DNA. Was there any other?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Where was it?
13 A Well --
14 MR. MILLER: Just a minute.
15 THE DEPONENT: Yeah. We're getting into
16 evidence here.
17 MR. MILLER: I don't think you should
18 answer that question.
19 Q (BY MR. WOOD) I have to be able to know.
20 You raised the issue yourself about the different
21 areas of DNA. So I assume it has some relevance to
22 the subject matter that I'm asking you about in terms
23 of the tests done with Chris Wolf.
24 A You can certainly ask me if Chris Wolf
25 matched any DNA at the scene. I can answer that.


122

1 Q But I'm asking you about -- but I asked
2 you whether anyone else's did and you indicated
3 initially no. I said Do you know whether DNA -- I
4 believe you told me DNA tests were done or performed
5 with respect to Chris Wolf?
6 Yes; to the best of my recollection, yes.
7 Do you know the results?
8 Yes.
9 What were the results?
10 "Answer: He did not match the DNA from
11 the scene.
12 "Question: Has anyone matched the DNA
13 from the scene?
14 "Answer: No.
15 "Question: Can you give me a ballpark
16 figure of how many individuals have submitted DNA"
17 and you didn't answer that.
18 You said "Well, back up a minute. There
19 is more than one sample of DNA. So specifically what
20 are you referring to" was the question you posed to
21 me.
22 So that has relevance of your own inquiry
23 and so I need to find out what other DNA you're
24 referring to.
25 A When you asked the question, I'm thinking


123

1 the unknown DNA.
2 Q Well, I mean --
3 A I answered the question in that context.
4 Q Known DNA -- I'm talking about DNA foreign
5 to JonBent.
6 A Okay.
7 Q That's what I'm asking you about and
8 whether any of that has been matched, DNA found on
9 her, foreign to her, whether that was matched to
10 Chris Wolf?
11 A DNA found on her?
12 Q Or on her clothing.
13 A And the question is did that match to
14 Chris Wolf? The answer is no.
15 Q Has it matched, been matched to anyone?
16 A The DNA on JonBent?
17 Q And/or on her clothing?
18 A No.
19 Q Obviously you're telling me there was DNA
20 that was not on JonBen t or on her clothing; is that
21 correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Where was that?
24 A We're getting into areas where I feel like
25 we can't go.

 

[Zman]

I never believe everything I'm told.
First there's no guarantee they even have any DNA. I think they just wanted to see if anyone refused to be sampled.
Second even if they have it theres no guarantee it's the killers.

 

[tipper]

I thought DNA-X was what they sent to the FBI.

 

[MlazyV]

I tend to belive there was another sample of dna that has remained unidentified. I also doubt it can be dated to or has any connection to the crime.


19 Q Obviously you're telling me there was DNA
20 that was not on JonBen t or on her clothing; is that
21 correct?
22 A Correct.


The possibilities for the location of this DNA includes anything removed in the searchs it's not just the location the body was found.

 

[Camper]

Wellllllll, just how does Henry fit into this?

Henri Ree say, "Dis is na a dna caze"

I hang firm to the toilet seat, BIG panties, tight winter warm velvet pants, long johns, dangly legs from the toilet, (6 yr olds feet do not touch the floor when sitting on the throne)you know my thoughts.

Hey here is another home test, females reading here find a six year old, heck you might have your own, and dress em up like JonBenet and send em to the bathroom. Toilet seat ideally would be split in the front, but not totally necessary. So IF you do not have dna testing equipment most likely, smear some peanut butter under the seat near the front edge underneath, and some on the top of the seat. Let us know what you discovered.

Dried liquid would be hard to duplicate, I could not think of a liquid that might be used and semi dried on the seat, that would be visible for this test.

Blue Crab you up for this? You would need an Edith Ann type toilet seat, like her HUGE rocking chair that she used on TV, and 'thats the truth'.



.
.

 

[BlueCrab]

Blue Crab you up for this?

Camper,

I don't think so. It would be an exercise in futility for me because if you remember, IMO the case has been solved for years -- children too young to prosecute were involved and a coverup supported by the court has been in place since the grand jury permanently adjourned in October of 1999.

My main concern is whether or not a person of prosecutable age was also involved as an accomplice and he has so far been able keep below the radar. Since this mystery person's identity would be known to the children, his DNA would or should have been collected by LE. IOW, does the coverup being fostered by the DA's office and the court to protect the identities of the children also include a known person who was of prosecutable age at the time of the crime?

BlueCrab

 

[Camper]

Camper,

I don't think so. It would be an exercise in futility for me because if you remember, IMO the case has been solved for years -- children too young to prosecute were involved and a coverup supported by the court has been in place since the grand jury permanently adjourned in October of 1999.

My main concern is whether or not a person of prosecutable age was also involved as an accomplice and he has so far been able keep below the radar. Since this mystery person's identity would be known to the children, his DNA would or should have been collected by LE. IOW, does the coverup being fostered by the DA's office and the court to protect the identities of the children also include a known person who was of prosecutable age at the time of the crime?

BlueCrab

---------->>>I have pondered what sort of prosecution would involve the writer of the note as well. You think PR would cover for NI as well, hmmm maybe, but I am having a tiny problem with that part of IT. Why would NI have spent the night there, to drive another guest home the next morning so Ramseys would not have to deliver him and thereby NOT delay their departure on A.M. of the 26th?

WHO made all of the beds, OOPS no one slept that night. Welll then that raises another question WHY would BR have been up and talking while mom was on her 911 call?

Stanton never mentioned hearing a car leave, wonder if they asked her IF IF she had noticed a CAR in front of Ramseys home the night of the 25th. Wonder IF IF it was NI that Mr. B saw walking up to the house on the 25th to 'babysit', was DS already there playing with BR? Where was PR, JR was at the airport checking the plane?

So, IF NI was the person that Mr. B saw walking up to the home, how would he get a car to drive himself home along with the 'guest' who was playing with BR?

I am thinking as I go, sorry, but perhaps the S's were to pick up the boys (DS & NI)the morning of the 26th, nah huh, er. I like my train of thought here. Never ran this track before.

NI seems to have a great lifestyle now, kind and gentle etc. BUT all kind and gentle appearing young men seem to always enjoy sex and sex exloration at a youthful age, before their brains are fully developed to go along with the biological development they experience at age 20'ish.

Another afterthought, wonder IF IF any of PR's friends saw her out and about in Boulder the 25th WITHOUT CHILDREN WITH HER. JR was AT the airport, a young man approaching the Ramsey house seen by Mr. B was perhaps coming to babysit.

This would be cause enough to lasso NI and get his dna.



.

 

[BlueCrab]

Camper,

You have some pretty good scenarios there; some I haven't thought of.

I'm not saying NI was the fifth person in the house that night, but I'm convinced there was a fifth person and that person was older in age than the boys. The missing crime scene evidence didn't grow wings and fly out of that broken window in the basement. It was carried out of the house by a person before the cops got there. And the wording in the ransom note, although IMO written by BR, reflected an older person's input.

Incidentally, Camper, remember the DrC and Doc Watson (same person) episode in this forum when he strongly defended NI. Well, here's another possible clue as to his whereabouts: DOC also stands for "Department of Corrections" in many states, and one state in particular in this case. But it's only a hunch so I won't mention what state that could be.

BlueCrab

 

[K777angel]

Camper,

You have some pretty good scenarios there; some I haven't thought of.

I'm not saying NI was the fifth person in the house that night, but I'm convinced there was a fifth person and that person was older in age than the boys. The missing crime scene evidence didn't grow wings and fly out of that broken window in the basement. It was carried out of the house by a person before the cops got there. And the wording in the ransom note, although IMO written by BR, reflected an older person's input.

Incidentally, Camper, remember the DrC and Doc Watson (same person) episode in this forum when he strongly defended NI. Well, here's another possible clue as to his whereabouts: DOC also stands for "Department of Corrections" in many states, and one state in particular in this case. But it's only a hunch so I won't mention what state that could be.

BlueCrab

If there was a 5th person in the house that night involved in the crime and staging his forensic evidence would be all over the place! It is not.
If any "5th" person were part of this crime and cover-up - they were OUTSIDE the home that night at another location.
Alex Hunter so much as hinted at that scenario when interviewed by Geraldo Rivera once. He said that all they were interested in and looking at in the case did NOT involve "just" the house - and that the crime was "much more complicated than that."

It is quite possible that with both the duct tape and the cord used on JonBenet, that there was no other source of those items other than what what used. In other words, we do not know if that piece of duct tape was simply ripped off of some other object or not. Nor do we know if that cord used on JonBenet was all there was. I do know that one of the items listed in the search warrant was string from a sled in the basement. The cord on JonBenet has also been referred to as "string" at times as well.
Did the perp/stager simply take string from the sled as it was conveniently located near the paint tote?
Also, there was a part of the paintbrush used with the cord on JonBenet LEFT behind in the paint tote. Part of it was missing. Well how do we know that the paintbrush wasn't broken at some OTHER time for some innocent use by someone in the house? Then the perp grabbed one piece of it to use that night.
And if the perp was so aware of taking a roll of duct tape and a piece of paintbrush and perhaps more of the cord/string (if there even was any of these leftover items to begin with) - why would he then leave a practice page in the paper pad used to write the note AND a crumpled up copy of the note?
I just don't believe anyone other than John, Patsy and/or Burke were involved in the crime that night. It has all the earmarks of a tragic "accident" gone very bad - one of a familial homicide. Then staged and covered up.
Evidence of caring and remorse were there.
Not something a stranger would ever do.

 

[UKGuy]

Also, there was a part of the paintbrush used with the cord on JonBenet LEFT behind in the paint tote. Part of it was missing. Well how do we know that the paintbrush wasn't broken at some OTHER time for some innocent use by someone in the house? Then the perp grabbed one piece of it to use that night.
And if the perp was so aware of taking a roll of duct tape and a piece of paintbrush and perhaps more of the cord/string (if there even was any of these leftover items to begin with) - why would he then leave a practice page in the paper pad used to write the note AND a crumpled up copy of the note?
I just don't believe anyone other than John, Patsy and/or Burke were involved in the crime that night. It has all the earmarks of a tragic "accident" gone very bad - one of a familial homicide. Then staged and covered up.
Evidence of caring and remorse were there.
Not something a stranger would ever do.

K777angel:

There were fresh wooden splinters lying on the floor probably where it had been split in two by placing it against the wall and stepping on it.

IMO different people staged different aspects of JonBenet's death. This is why the issue of forensic evidence being missing is distinct from practise rn pages being left behind.

There were possibly three different stagings probaly done by different people, this is what makes the clothing aspect interesting, since you can see the different elements as being representive of the people who did the staging.

This is one reason why I dont accept Patsy's claim that the red turtleneck lay bundled up because she and JonBenet had a disagreement. Its probably a remnant of a previous staging scenario.

There are also possibly two pairs of JonBenet's size-6 underwear missing, remember its likely up to midday xmas day JonBenet was dressed in her pink pijamas, so between playing outside on her bike, she did wear other clothing, possibly the jeans with the missing underwear?

 

[Toltec]

UKGuy...JonBenet's bloomies were not "soiled". Drops of blood were on them.