What Do the Bodies Tell Us?

[Miranda!]

Seen pic. Okay - here's the difference. Sit in a chair, lean forward and put your hands down by your ankles. That's "in front" . . . .

Or . . . Position one: the feet are in front of the 'chair. Position two the feet are at each side and towards the back of the chair and arms maybe over the back of the chair. At no point is the chair tied into this!!

 

[Compassionate Reader]

The best description of the knots is from the testimony of Lisa Sakevicius. Here is the pertinent part:

Q. Referring first to Exhibit 80 -- on Exhibit 80 those were the knots on which --
A. Michael Moore.
Q. What were your findings as to the knots on Michael Moore?
A. Two pieces of black shoestring, one each tied between the wrist and leg on the right and left side. The knots on the wrist and leg on the left side were both square knots. The knot on the wrist on the right side was a series of three half hitches. The knot on the left side of the right side was a series of four half hitches.
Q. On the left side what kind of knots did you have?
A. Square knots.
Q. And on the right side what kind of knots?
A. You had a series of three half hitches and then a series of four half hitches.
Q. On Exhibit 81 -- if you would refer to that exhibit.
A. That is from Steve Branch.
Q. What were your findings as to the knots on Exhibit 81?
A. Examination of the ligatures revealed a black shoestring on the right side tied in three half hitches with an extra loop around the leg to a single half hitch with a figure eight around the right wrist. The left side consisted of a white shoestring tied in three half hitches around the wrist to three half hitches around the leg.
Q. So on the left side on the wrist you had three half hitches?
A. Correct.
Q. And on the ankle you had three half hitches?
A. Correct.
Q. On the right side on the leg you had three half hitches with what?
A. An extra loop around the right leg.
Q. On the wrist you had?
A. A figure eight.
Q. With one half hitch. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Refer to Exhibit 82.
A. That would be from Chris Byers. Examination of ligatures revealed one black shoestring tied in a double half hitch around the right wrist to a double half hitch around the right leg. The ligature on the left side consisted of a double half hitch around the wrist and leg but was tied with a white shoestring.
Q. When you say, "a double half hitch," is that the same as two half hitches?
A. Yes.
Q. So on Exhibit 82 all of the knots on both wrists and both legs are the same?
A. Yes.
Q. And on Exhibit 80, which was Michael Moore, on the left side you had the same kind of knots both on the leg and wrist which were square knots?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell me one more time what those were on the right side, please.
A. On the right side a series of three half hitches on -- I called it the wrist -- and then on the left side four half hitches.
Q. You lost me there.
A. I think what I mean is the wrist and the leg.
Q. You had three half hitches and four half hitches?
A. Yes.
Q. And then on Exhibit 81 on the left side you had both the wrist and ankle with three half hitches?
A. Three half hitches around the wrist and leg.
Q. You had some half hitches with some differences on the right side, some extra --
A. Correct.
Q. You said there is a loop and then a figure eight. What do you mean?
A. Instead of just being once around, it had been wrapped around twice and then the knot was tied.

I've cleaned it up a bit by removing the line numbering and pagination and "extra" spacing. Please note that the knots used weren't really "different" knots but more of a combination of half hitches, for the most part, with a few square knots thrown in, all of which are simple knots. I don't see CB's knots as being very different from the others. Of course, the prosecution was trying to point to three "different" types of knots as being indicative of three killers. I don't see it.

 

[Justiceseeker35]

I've cleaned it up a bit by removing the line numbering and pagination and "extra" spacing. Please note that the knots used weren't really "different" knots but more of a combination of half hitches, for the most part, with a few square knots thrown in, all of which are simple knots. I don't see CB's knots as being very different from the others. Of course, the prosecution was trying to point to three "different" types of knots as being indicative of three killers. I don't see it.

So basically I'm taking away from all this is the only reason there were different knots is likely based on if the victim was struggling at the time with the killer. More complicated knots for more difficult limbs. There's already been plenty of "test" cases on tying with shoelaces with regular people trying to recreate this. I tend now to think it was not for transport or for keeping them from running but more for the killers own enjoyment/satisfaction and instilling terror in already gravely wounded victims. The initial anger /rage /vengeance of the act was real. For all that we've seen this killer did not panic in the face of what he'd done. The tying up of kids in such a bizarre and personal manner the cold and purposeful disposing of belongings suggests he was calm and took pleasure in the game of it all.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Although I still believe that the tying was for transport, IMO, the important thing is that the knots weren't some sort of "special" knots but were simple knots, basically half hitches. I do agree that the killer didn't panic, but he could have been in a bit of a hurry to complete the task, which led to the haphazard manner in which the knots were tied.

 

[Ausgirl]

I'm not squeamish about crime scene pictures, so I am okay with staring at them for long periods of time to try to get some idea of what happened. Anyway, there's two pictures in particular that aren't making much sense to me right now, in conjunction with all I've read about this case.

I'm sure someone can help clear up what I'm seeing..

Now, these pictures are not labelled, but I've established this is the body of Michael Moore. Both pictures are of the same victim, who appears to be tied with two dark laces.

In the first picture, I think I am seeing (pic taken from above) a body being lifted out of water by someone wearing a white t-shirt with lettering on it. The body has what appears to be a green cloth partially covering the torso. The legs are splayed wide, as far as the bindings allow.

In the second picture, I am seeing the victim laid on the bank, on his side. The torso is partially obscured by something green. The legs are now together at the knees, only the ankles remain slightly parted.

My questions are:

-- What is that green cloth over his torso? Where is that mentioned?
-- If MM was in full rigor when removed from the water, his legs should not be changing positions like that. So was he not yet fully in rigor at the time his body was actually removed from the water, but perhaps was in full rigor by the time his body was examined by the coroner?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

From your description, it does seem to be the body of MM. Also, your supposition that the body was in full rigor when examined but not when removed makes sense, too. Maybe some people don't realize that rigor only lasts for a specific time (twelve hours?) and then the body relaxes. That would put the TOD no earlier than 1:30 am on May 6th since the bodies were discovered at 1:30 pm on May 6th, right?

 

[Ausgirl]

Well. There's certain variables that make rigor a terrible way to tell TOD. Including atmospheric temperature, even the amount of stress the victim was under immediately prior to death. Lots of stuff. But IF this picture of the body with the green cloth being lifted up IS indeed MM, and it IS indeed him being removed from the water (which is what I'm trying to establish here..) then it's pretty plain he was not in full rigor at the time.

(from the autopsy report):

The body was cold. Rigor was present and fixed to an equal degree in all extremities. Lividity was present, minimal and fixed on the posterior surface of the body except in areas exposed to pressure.

^ Meaning rigor was NOT passing. Seeing as the autopsy was done some time *after* discovery, so if it was passing the rigor would not be evenly fixed as it was.

Looking at the other bodies, where rigor clearly does not allow gravity to bring the legs together when the victims is lain on his side.. it could also mean a different TOD for different victims.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Well. There's certain variables that make rigor a terrible way to tell TOD. Including atmospheric temperature, even the amount of stress the victim was under immediately prior to death. Lots of stuff. But IF this picture of the body with the green cloth being lifted up IS indeed MM, and it IS indeed him being removed from the water (which is what I'm trying to establish here..) then it's pretty plain he was not in full rigor at the time.

(from the autopsy report):

The body was cold. Rigor was present and fixed to an equal degree in all extremities. Lividity was present, minimal and fixed on the posterior surface of the body except in areas exposed to pressure.

^ Meaning rigor was NOT passing.

Looking at the other bodies, where rigor clearly does not allow gravity to bring the legs together when the victims is lain on his side.. it could also mean a different TOD for different victims.

That makes sense, too! MM was the least injured and would possibly be the last to die. If Jessie's "story" were true, all three boys would have drowned (or died from their injuries) long before 1:30 am on May 6th!

 

[Ausgirl]

Yeah, at this point I am not considering anything Jesse said as particularly true. Too much chicanery in the interrogation, for anything conclusive there, IMO.

What's of most interest to me here is that these pictures *may* establish a loose order of death in some concrete way. Also, that rigor occurred closer to the time of discovery, rather than further away from it. But I am not taking that as gospel just yet.

 

[Justiceseeker35]

If tod was around 1:30 am than that would mean they had to be stowed somewhere and then moved back to the ditch to finish them off by drowning. The only way someone would feel confident enough to move them in the middle of the night would be if he was intimately involved in the search. That narrows it down to just a few people.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

Ausgirl:

My questions are:

-- What is that green cloth over his torso? Where is that mentioned?

The clothing described at Jivepuupi, http://www.jivepuppi.com/evidence_the_clothes.html does not contain anything Green.

However the "Blue" Cub Scouts of America shirt, listed as being found near the body of MM, could appear to be Green, due to the reflections caused by the wooded surroundings of the area.

 

[Userid]

^ I've seen a crime scene photo where the cops amassed all the clothing on a fallen tree branch on the ground. In that photo, there is a green bag -- it's either a sleeping bag or a backpack. From all I know, it was never identified.

Anyways, could the "green cloth" have been leaves?

 

[Ausgirl]

No, this was not his shirt. It is extremely green.

Nor was it leaves. In the pics I'm seeing, it's definitely a green cloth of some kind. It's draped across the body's upper half in an odd way, could have been creek debris of some kind. But then there's talk of "green fibres" and the mysterious cloth clutched in his hand .. just no mention at all of a large bit of green cloth that seems to be clinging to MM's body as he's pulled out of the water...

It's possible this was the green bag you mentioned Userid.

 

[Miranda!]

^ I've seen a crime scene photo where the cops amassed all the clothing on a fallen tree branch on the ground. In that photo, there is a green bag -- it's either a sleeping bag or a backpack. From all I know, it was never identified.

I seem to recall a long discussion about this a while back now, using stills from PL1, which included crime scene footage. The final conclusion reached was that it was very probably the bag that the video camera came in - (big enough for all accessories, like tripod etc.)

Also, that the 'blue fabric' clutched in the hand, was never recorded nor entered in to evidence but that the funeral home used blue fabric - I think the bodies first went there and then on to the coroner's office for autopsy.

Best I can do from memory - but sure someone will correct me if they know more (for which I will be grateful!).

 

[Ausgirl]

Okay, so the green cloth I am seeing isn't the tripod bag then.

It's fabric thin enough to wrinkle, it's draped flat over MM's body as he's being lifted up in the water by Mike Allen (I'm going by the white t-shirt with lettering on it) and looks wet. On the shot from the bank, it's wrinkled from MM being laid on his side.

I thought for a moment maybe the cops put it there for some reason, but it only covers his upper body and only partially at that. His lower body is not covered at all.

So I think what I am seeing is a/ the mystery green cloth being pulled up at the same time as MM and b/ MM being in a vastly different position when being pulled from the water than that he is in when placed on the bank and c/ rigor mortis not being fully fixed at the time he was removed from the water.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Just a shot in the dark here, but could it be a body bag? Didn't they transport the bodies in body bags? Maybe that shot was taken right before MM's body was placed in the bag. Just a thought.

(BTW, Ausgirl, hope you feel better soon!)

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

Jivepuppi has something new about the autopsies

[URL="http://www.jivepuppi.com/discrepancies_in_the_autopsies.html"]

here!![/URL]

 

[Ausgirl]

CR, nope, not a body bag. It was clinging to his body as it's pulled from the water and is in place for some photos on the bank, and then not others. Hard to explain, I might try cropping a bit of the pic so you can see the cloth. It might have just been a bit of creek detritus, idk, but it's kind of odd that it is not mentioned in -any- report I have seen so far. And thank you so much, I am feeling much better this week, thank goodness!

Cher, that info is *very* interesting, thanks for the link.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

Just found this Here:

Brent Turvey
1998: Equivocal Examination and Psychological Profile of Case Evidence Transcribed

http://callahan.8k.com/documents_az.html

"Furthermore, the piece of cloth (pictured clutched in the victim's hand at the right), found in this victim's hand at the scene, should be re-examined. This is a very critical piece of physical evidence that has not been fully examined by qualified individuals to determine it's full evidentiary value in this case. The cloth is a potential link from this victim directly to a suspect. Where this victim tore this piece of cloth from is a question that begs answering. And given that it could be physically matched back to the material of origin, this makes its evidentiary value all the greater"

 

[Ausgirl]

The "cloth in hand" noted was described in the autopsy report as a "strand"... as you'll see, this is not just a strand. Here's the cropped pics... note that in the one with Mike Allen's arms and T-shirt showing, this was taken from 'above (presumably up on the bank) and Mike Allen is clearly standing in --- and lifting the body out from -- the muddy water.