What do the profilers say?

[BlueCrab]

What do you mean? 'forced to play the cards he was dealt'? I cannot see any reason why he was forced to go along with the childish-sounding ransom note. How can you claim this?

aussiesheila,

I claim this because John did indeed go along with the note that was already written. There was only so much time before they had to call the cops so the Ramseys had to leave much of the evidence, including the 3-page ransom note, as it was.

BlueCrab

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Blue Crab, forgive me if you've already answered this, but do you think JR knew about the note prior to the 911 call to police, or do you think he first saw it when Patsy was calling 911?

 

[BlueCrab]

Blue Crab, forgive me if you've already answered this, but do you think JR knew about the note prior to the 911 call to police, or do you think he first saw it when Patsy was calling 911?

Nuisanceposter,

It's only a guess of course but, IMO, John saw the note and discovered JonBenet's body hours before Patsy called 911. There's convincing evidence John had been in the basement prior to the 911 call, even though John denies it. However, time was running out so he left the note as it was. There were more important things to do. After they found the body (probably around 2:00 AM or so), I would guess that most of John's time was used up in calling his attorney and other friends to get advice and to develop a plan on how to get the coverup safely off the ground.

BlueCrab

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Thanks. I also believe JR saw the note way before the 911 call and had been spending time arranging things. If I may inquire further...when you think Patsy first saw the note? Do you believe that she never slept that night?

 

[capps]

Nuisanceposter,

It's only a guess of course but, IMO, John saw the note and discovered JonBenet's body hours before Patsy called 911. There's convincing evidence John had been in the basement prior to the 911 call, even though John denies it. However, time was running out so he left the note as it was. There were more important things to do. After they found the body (probably around 2:00 AM or so), I would guess that most of John's time was used up in calling his attorney and other friends to get advice and to develop a plan on how to get the coverup safely off the ground.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Okay,I'm trying to sort this out.
After John found JB's body,when do you think he realized BR and maybe another older person was involved?

Also,in your theory,what is your thinkng of why John was walking around the house in the middle of the night?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

aussiesheila,

It appears to me the ransom note was written by a young male -- perhaps about 14 to 21 years old because of the vocabulary used in it. However, the penmanship could have been that of a much younger person.

The bogus ransom note was likely written after JonBenet was killed. Therefore, in this theory the gruesome staging was the work of the killers trying to make the death look like it was committed by a vicious foreign terrorist and thus match the wording in the ransom note.

IMO John probably found the body after the gruesome part of the staging had been completed and the note written by others. With a Ramsey family member involved, John and Patsy had no choice but to put some finishing touches on the staging; begin lying their asses off; and hope for the best. The coverup continues to this day.

BlueCrab

The idea that the ransom note was 'bogus', and the crime scene 'gruesomely staged' are nothing more than claims, and these claims have an interesting effect on a POV. The claims tend to prevent formation of any conclusions about the character of the perp(s). IOW if all the crime scene evidence that could be used to characterize the perp(s) is fake, how can you characterize the perp(s)?

The other side of the coin: The almost casual, and RDI ignored expression "...will be beheaded" was an attemt to impress the reader with just how screwed-up violent the perp is. The author's so violent he can matter-of-factly refer to 'beheading' and 'immediately executing' a 6 year old.

The RN author was clearly attempting to convey the idea to the reader that for him and his two gentlemen, not just violence but extreme and unusual violence comes easy.

Why would the author convey the idea that unusual and extreme violence comes easy? If its a real RN, the answer is clear: the author really didn't want JR to call the cops, so the author conveyed all these ideas of extreme violence directed at JBR in a genuine effort to dissuade him.

Maybe you can explain, if its a bogus RN, why would the author use threats of extreme and unusual violence (fact), while presenting the idea that violence comes easy (fact)?

 

[IrishMist]

The idea that the ransom note was 'bogus', and the crime scene 'gruesomely staged' are nothing more than claims, and these claims have an interesting effect on a POV. The claims tend to prevent formation of any conclusions about the character of the perp(s). IOW if all the crime scene evidence that could be used to characterize the perp(s) is fake, how can you characterize the perp(s)?

The other side of the coin: The almost casual, and RDI ignored expression "...will be beheaded" was an attemt to impress the reader with just how screwed-up violent the perp is. The author's so violent he can matter-of-factly refer to 'beheading' and 'immediately executing' a 6 year old.

The RN author was clearly attempting to convey the idea to the reader that for him and his two gentlemen, not just violence but extreme and unusual violence comes easy.

Why would the author convey the idea that unusual and extreme violence comes easy? If its a real RN, the answer is clear: the author really didn't want JR to call the cops, so the author conveyed all these ideas of extreme violence directed at JBR in a genuine effort to dissuade him.

Maybe you can explain, if its a bogus RN, why would the author use threats of extreme and unusual violence (fact), while presenting the idea that violence comes easy (fact)?

HOTYH,
You seem really intent on believing the ransom note is real, and I'm wondering what makes you feel that way?

To me, NOTHING in that note turned out to be real.

I guess one could say that he/she/they DID use extreme violence to kill her, but in the note, that was all conditional. What I mean is- If you do THIS, we will do THAT... so even that isn't real.

I'd just like to know what, in your opinion, makes the note real?

 

[BlueCrab]

Maybe you can explain, if its a bogus RN, why would the author use threats of extreme and unusual violence (fact), while presenting the idea that violence comes easy (fact)?

Holontoyourhat,

It's not hard to determine the ransom note to be fake (in addition to the childish wording).

First, the note and the body were both left in the house. Therefore, the threats of violence were moot and there was no kidnapping.

Second, the killer tried to hide the sexual assault by cleaning up JonBenet and putting clean underwear on her. Therefore, the finger of guilt points to a Ramsey -- the only person who would benefit if the sexual assault was successfully hidden.

BlueCrab

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

HOTYH,
You seem really intent on believing the ransom note is real, and I'm wondering what makes you feel that way?

To me, NOTHING in that note turned out to be real.

I guess one could say that he/she/they DID use extreme violence to kill her, but in the note, that was all conditional. What I mean is- If you do THIS, we will do THAT... so even that isn't real.

I'd just like to know what, in your opinion, makes the note real?

Guess what, the ransom note is real. Its written on real paper, using a real pen, by a real criminal and everything. The author was obviously focusing on JR and not calling the cops.

Since the R's never actually complied with the terms of the RN, its impossible to determine if the perp would have called between 8 and 10. Another poster said there was in fact a hang-up call between 8 and 10. Hang-up calls are relatively rare, so I'd consider that very significant.

If the R's complied with the note, paid 118K, and later found their daughter in the basement, it would be right up there with L & L. Its possible the perp was going for 'infamous' but didn't quite get there.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holontoyourhat,

It's not hard to determine the ransom note to be fake (in addition to the childish wording).

First, the note and the body were both left in the house. Therefore, the threats of violence were moot and there was no kidnapping.

Second, the killer tried to hide the sexual assault by cleaning up JonBenet and putting clean underwear on her. Therefore, the finger of guilt points to a Ramsey -- the only person who would benefit if the sexual assault was successfully hidden.

BlueCrab

The perp left the RN in a conspicuous place, where it could not be missed. The perp hid JBR in perhaps the most remote place in the house. How much time elapsed between finding the note and JBR? 7 hours?

The threats of violence, and the expressions that indicated to the reader that violence comes easy, appear to have been a scare tactic to dissuade JR from calling the cops. If JBR were already dead, then the threats of violence would be bluffs by the perp in an attempt to extort 118K from JR. Not exactly a moot point.

Why would the R's point to themselves by 'cleaning up' or 'redressing' JBR while cleverly writing a vicious RN pointing away from themselves? This makes no sense. What does make sense is a foreign author, therefore not worried about leaving a ton of handwriting evidence behind.

 

[Nehemiah]

The perp left the RN in a conspicuous place, where it could not be missed. The perp hid JBR in perhaps the most remote place in the house. How much time elapsed between finding the note and JBR? 7 hours?

The threats of violence, and the expressions that indicated to the reader that violence comes easy, appear to have been a scare tactic to dissuade JR from calling the cops. If JBR were already dead, then the threats of violence would be bluffs by the perp in an attempt to extort 118K from JR. Not exactly a moot point.

Why would the R's point to themselves by 'cleaning up' or 'redressing' JBR while cleverly writing a vicious RN pointing away from themselves? This makes no sense. What does make sense is a foreign author, therefore not worried about leaving a ton of handwriting evidence behind.

HOTYH, what do you think the motive was?

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

I claim this because John did indeed go along with the note that was already written. There was only so much time before they had to call the cops so the Ramseys had to leave much of the evidence, including the 3-page ransom note, as it was.

BlueCrab

Oh come on now BlueCrab, it would have taken him all of 15 minutes to rip up that ridiculous kidnapping note and write a short hate note and delay making the 911 call until 6.12 am. He could have even delayed the call a whole hour to give him more time to stage a better coverup.

 

[aussiesheila]

Nuisanceposter,

It's only a guess of course but, IMO, John saw the note and discovered JonBenet's body hours before Patsy called 911. There's convincing evidence John had been in the basement prior to the 911 call, even though John denies it. However, time was running out so he left the note as it was. There were more important things to do. After they found the body (probably around 2:00 AM or so), I would guess that most of John's time was used up in calling his attorney and other friends to get advice and to develop a plan on how to get the coverup safely off the ground.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab, do you think he read the note out to his attorney? Just to check it sounded OK?

 

[aussiesheila]

Holontoyourhat,

It's not hard to determine the ransom note to be fake (in addition to the childish wording).

First, the note and the body were both left in the house. Therefore, the threats of violence were moot and there was no kidnapping.

Second, the killer tried to hide the sexual assault by cleaning up JonBenet and putting clean underwear on her. Therefore, the finger of guilt points to a Ramsey -- the only person who would benefit if the sexual assault was successfully hidden.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

What makes you say the killer cleaned up the body? I am not aware of any evidence that points conclusively to this.

What makes you say the killer put clean underwear on her? I thought the panties and longjohns on the body were both stained with urine.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Oh come on now BlueCrab, it would have taken him all of 15 minutes to rip up that ridiculous kidnapping note and write a short hate note and delay making the 911 call until 6.12 am. He could have even delayed the call a whole hour to give him more time to stage a better coverup.

Calling the crime something besides a 'kidnapping for ransom' would be a much better 'coverup', because then its not an automatic FBI invitation. Why would anyone leave handwriting and invite the FBI. That doesn't make any sense. There was no coverup.

 

[aussiesheila]

Calling the crime something besides a 'kidnapping for ransom' would be a much better 'coverup', because then its not an automatic FBI invitation. Why would anyone leave handwriting and invite the FBI. That doesn't make any sense. There was no coverup.

I hadn't thought of that, Holdontoyourhat, yes of course it wouldn't make any sense to leave a 'kidnap ransom' note if it means an automatic FBI invitation. Even if Burke had written a ransom note, I'm sure John would have realised it would be foolish to leave such a note and would have made sure he spent another 15 minutes writing a short 'hate' note.

In other words, neither the theory that Burke killed JonBenet and wrote the note nor the theory that Patsy killed JonBenet and John wrote the note make any sense whatsoever, and so both are most unlikely to be true.

 

[sandraladeda]

I don't think one can assume that everyone in the USA, in 1996, including JR and PR would know that kidnapping is an "automatic FBI invitation".

 

[K777angel]

The perp left the RN in a conspicuous place, where it could not be missed. The perp hid JBR in perhaps the most remote place in the house. How much time elapsed between finding the note and JBR? 7 hours?

The threats of violence, and the expressions that indicated to the reader that violence comes easy, appear to have been a scare tactic to dissuade JR from calling the cops. If JBR were already dead, then the threats of violence would be bluffs by the perp in an attempt to extort 118K from JR. Not exactly a moot point.

Why would the R's point to themselves by 'cleaning up' or 'redressing' JBR while cleverly writing a vicious RN pointing away from themselves? This makes no sense. What does make sense is a foreign author, therefore not worried about leaving a ton of handwriting evidence behind.

First of all, your first mistake is BELIEVING Patsy Ramsey that she "found" a note on the stairs. That is a huge assumption. As there were no video cameras present to confirm her claim, we must take it with a grain of salt. As well as taking into account the fact that she'd been caught in lies regarding this case. Which of course makes everything she says suspect.

Secondly, the "threats" of violence in that note made the experts laugh. It was clearly someone writing trying to appear as someone who was tough. Writing what they THOUGHT a tough kidnapper would write. But no one writes long, rambling kidnap for ransom notes like that. The sheer length of the note (letter) was a huge red flag that it was bogus. ("thou doth protest too much Patsy!)

"IF" JonBenet were dead? Huh? She WAS dead! And she was dead when the note was written. The note was written BECAUSE she was dead!
"How do I explain this horrific accident turned deadly???"
There was no extortion.
No money was ever sought. Period. To this day.

The Ramsey's didn't "point to themselves" on purpose by wiping her down (according to the coroner) - but a case is built on FACTS. And it is a FACT that she was molested, wiped down, panties pulled back up, redressed, laid on a blanket and covered/wrapped up like a baby.
NOT something a dangerous predator pedophile kidnapper who doesn't bother to take the child out of the home person would do. Because they DON't EXIST!
There is only so much ANY criminal or killer can do to cover up their crime.
To ask why they did something that would "point to them" - well it's because THEY DID THE CRIME!! AND COVER-UP! (duh)

This was no "foriegner" who committed this crime and cover-up.
The note was written as the experts have said, by an educated caucasian woman who was panicked. Period.
And Patsy's signature is all over that note in her linguistics and style not to mention that her disguised handwriting, try as she might, could never be eliminated as authorship. Hmmm.... and given those things she just also happened to be IN THE HOUSE that night by her own admission!
Out of the 6 BILLION people on the planet.

This is not rocket science folks. :banghead:

 

[UKGuy]

The perp left the RN in a conspicuous place, where it could not be missed. The perp hid JBR in perhaps the most remote place in the house. How much time elapsed between finding the note and JBR? 7 hours?

The threats of violence, and the expressions that indicated to the reader that violence comes easy, appear to have been a scare tactic to dissuade JR from calling the cops. If JBR were already dead, then the threats of violence would be bluffs by the perp in an attempt to extort 118K from JR. Not exactly a moot point.

Why would the R's point to themselves by 'cleaning up' or 'redressing' JBR while cleverly writing a vicious RN pointing away from themselves? This makes no sense. What does make sense is a foreign author, therefore not worried about leaving a ton of handwriting evidence behind.

Holdontoyourhat,

It beats me when people do not recognize staging, even when the forensic evidence is staring them in the face!

If an intruder murdered and sexually assaulted JonBenet, then decided lets also extract some Dollars, or even if her death were an accident.

Why did he/she not remove her body from the house it was Xmas time, it was quiet she would have not been found very quickly, even if she was placed nearby.

This would have given the RN claim more validity, as it was, even the FBI did not think it was an abduction scenario, they phoned this opinion back to their local Field Office.

Now nobody knows where JonBenet was hidden, a loaded word that, but they know where she was found, and Fleet White says he never saw her there on looking.

The cleaning up and re-dressing of JonBenet acts not only to stage a crime scene but to remove evidence, this was done quite convincingly, the big mistake is to employ the staging as evidence in an after the fact theory of who did it!

This why staged crimes are so tricky they are like the magicians smoke and mirrors, intended to deceive, and sometimes it works, and Lou Smits deviant intruder theory seems like icing on the cake. Case Solved!

.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

First of all, your first mistake is BELIEVING Patsy Ramsey that she "found" a note on the stairs. That is a huge assumption. As there were no video cameras present to confirm her claim, we must take it with a grain of salt. As well as taking into account the fact that she'd been caught in lies regarding this case. Which of course makes everything she says suspect.

Secondly, the "threats" of violence in that note made the experts laugh. It was clearly someone writing trying to appear as someone who was tough. Writing what they THOUGHT a tough kidnapper would write. But no one writes long, rambling kidnap for ransom notes like that. The sheer length of the note (letter) was a huge red flag that it was bogus. ("thou doth protest too much Patsy!)

"IF" JonBenet were dead? Huh? She WAS dead! And she was dead when the note was written. The note was written BECAUSE she was dead!
"How do I explain this horrific accident turned deadly???"
There was no extortion.
No money was ever sought. Period. To this day.

The Ramsey's didn't "point to themselves" on purpose by wiping her down (according to the coroner) - but a case is built on FACTS. And it is a FACT that she was molested, wiped down, panties pulled back up, redressed, laid on a blanket and covered/wrapped up like a baby.
NOT something a dangerous predator pedophile kidnapper who doesn't bother to take the child out of the home person would do. Because they DON't EXIST!
There is only so much ANY criminal or killer can do to cover up their crime.
To ask why they did something that would "point to them" - well it's because THEY DID THE CRIME!! AND COVER-UP! (duh)

This was no "foriegner" who committed this crime and cover-up.
The note was written as the experts have said, by an educated caucasian woman who was panicked. Period.
And Patsy's signature is all over that note in her linguistics and style not to mention that her disguised handwriting, try as she might, could never be eliminated as authorship. Hmmm.... and given those things she just also happened to be IN THE HOUSE that night by her own admission!
Out of the 6 BILLION people on the planet.

This is not rocket science folks. :banghead:

I'd like to know which expert 'laughed' at the part of the ransom note threatening to 'behead' a six year old. That's a really unusual threat to aim at a child, even in a coverup ransom note.

I appreciate that you and others have a hard time characterizing the perp, but I don't. The perp used deliberate and deadly force on a child, intending to kill her. The perp writes notes that direct extreme and unusual violence at a child.

There's so many things about this case that mystifies, when you're looking at it from RDI, like why they would do it in the first place. C'mon the R's don't even have a motive, do they.

Things are simplified alot from IDI. For example, understanding how come the perp wasn't worried about leaving tons of handwriting evidence. The risk of leaving handwriting goes down with distance. It would be so risky to leave handwriting evidence if you lived in the same house, its unbelieveable that anyone would consider the R's actually having authored the note!