What do you think the Ramsey's original plan was...

[TeaTime]

What if Parent A was caught doing something with JonBenet enraging Parent B and Parent B winds up striking JonBenet on the head? Wouldn't Parent A feel like he/she had to get their hands dirty too?

That was my very first thought as a possible reason for them to orchestrate the staging but it seems unlikely.

The GJ thought the parents helped a third person. There was only one other person and I think he did it all.

 

[CircuitGuy]

I enjoyed reading this thread. I think they came up with staging, RN, and cover story all in a few stressed-out hours in the middle of the night. Because of this the RN and rest of the coverup make no sense.

A few ideas on this thread I disagree with:

• The Ramsey's planned to move the body after calling the police - Even if they were stressed out, thinking stupidly, used to getting their way, etc, I see them as doing whatever they were going to do FIRST before calling the police. If they were going to dispose of the body and other evidence, it would be much easier to do so before the cops were involved. Even if the cops had totally left them alone and been on the lookout around town, it would still be harder than before the cops were looking. Most of the note is about why NOT to call the cops.
• The police would have noticed if they smelled of alcohol - Unless they were wasted and reeked of alcohol, I don't think the cops would have noticed.
• Because JR was a CEO he was used to everyone doing what he said - Not everyone. Being a CEO is an enormous responsibility of making things work for investors, customers, regulators, etc. I don't think he would assume the police would do everything he said.

I suspect the 80 min when JR was unaccounted for he was fixing parts of the staging or hiding evidence that he forgot to do before calling the police. He was not executing any key parts of a plan.

The RN could have given them a reason not to call the police and go to remote places (the exhausting delivery).They could have taken the body to a remote place. If the police caught them, they could say this was the exhausting delivery and the kidnappers killed her. I wonder if they considered this and abandoned it, either deciding it would be too complicated or just panicking and calling 911 to bring things to a head.

In any case, I imagined it a hastily planned thing, not thought out. I imagine them upset, possibly using prescription drugs and/or alcohol in modest amounts, tired, and not thinking right. The RN doesn't make much sense. Its only purpose is to point to people outside the family, such as disgruntled employees. I imagine after hours of the police being there, they starting thinking of how bad this plan was. Just saying it was a home invasion with no RN would have made more sense. The RN worked in throwing off some investigators. It worked only by the writer's good luck, not due to master planning.

 

[Gigitmdy]

One of the big factors for me believing it was Burke and John knew it was the 911 tape with John saying "we're not speaking to you." As if he and Patsy made the gruesome discovery and were in high gear. But this is the first time John talked to Burke about it. And Burke saying "what did you find?"

 

[Ambitioned]

One of the big factors for me believing it was Burke and John knew it was the 911 tape with John saying "we're not speaking to you." As if he and Patsy made the gruesome discovery and were in high gear. But this is the first time John talked to Burke about it. And Burke saying "what did you find?"

And Patsy saying. "What did you do? help me Jesus." She didn't say, "What did I do?"

 

[CircuitGuy]

One of the big factors for me believing it was Burke and John knew it was the 911 tape with John saying "we're not speaking to you." As if he and Patsy made the gruesome discovery and were in high gear. But this is the first time John talked to Burke about it. And Burke saying "what did you find?"

And Patsy saying. "What did you do? help me Jesus." She didn't say, "What did I do?"

That RN took hours to formulate and print. So any conversation captured at the end of the 911 call took place hours after the crime. The type of dialog mentioned here makes more sense after she died but before the coverup.

It's off topic for this thread, but I doubt the phone picked up any conversation at the end. If find other things telling about the call:

• She sounded frantic for the police to hurry yet hung up the phone. I would expect someone eager for police help would stay on the line.
• Usually when people encounter a rare crime, they think it must not be real. At many shootings I've heard people at first think it must be an act. There was no suggestion whatsoever of "this has to be some kind of child prank or something."
• There is no mention of concern the perpetrator may still be nearby.
• There is no mention of working with the kidnappers and avoiding doing something that might anger them.

Getting back to the topic, I consider all of these mistakes to be part of a poorly-constructed plan. After thinking about it as much as we have, they probably would have fixed some of these mistakes.

I think the original plan was to make as many false clues as possible to point to anyone and everyone outside the house: a random rapist/murderer, a disgruntled employee, a politically-motivated "terrorist", someone with a personal grudge, anyone but them. I doesn't make logic sense that the same RN would point in different directions. I think this was panicked and not well thought out.

 

[Miz Adventure]

That RN took hours to formulate and print. So any conversation captured at the end of the 911 call took place hours after the crime. The type of dialog mentioned here makes more sense after she died but before the coverup.

It's off topic for this thread, but I doubt the phone picked up any conversation at the end. If find other things telling about the call:

• She sounded frantic for the police to hurry yet hung up the phone. I would expect someone eager for police help would stay on the line.
• Usually when people encounter a rare crime, they think it must not be real. At many shootings I've heard people at first think it must be an act. There was no suggestion whatsoever of "this has to be some kind of child prank or something."
• There is no mention of concern the perpetrator may still be nearby.
• There is no mention of working with the kidnappers and avoiding doing something that might anger them.

Getting back to the topic, I consider all of these mistakes to be part of a poorly-constructed plan. After thinking about it as much as we have, they probably would have fixed some of these mistakes.

I think the original plan was to make as many false clues as possible to point to anyone and everyone outside the house: a random rapist/murderer, a disgruntled employee, a politically-motivated "terrorist", someone with a personal grudge, anyone but them. I doesn't make logic sense that the same RN would point in different directions. I think this was panicked and not well thought out.

I agree with all of that.

 

[icedtea4me]

That was my very first thought as a possible reason for them to orchestrate the staging but it seems unlikely.

The GJ thought the parents helped a third person. There was only one other person and I think he did it all.

The only counts which are known for each John (9 counts) and Patsy (9 counts) in the 18 page indictment are counts IV(a) and VII. What each was charged with in counts I, II, III, IV, IV(b), V, and VI is not known, but common sense dictates that the charges in counts I, II, and III are going to be far more serious than what's in IV(a) and VII.

 

[observation]

The only counts which are known for each John (9 counts) and Patsy (9 counts) in the 18 page indictment are counts IV(a) and VII. What each was charged with in counts I, II, III, IV, IV(b), V, and VI is not known, but common sense dictates that the charges in counts I, II, and III are going to be far more serious than what's in IV(a) and VII.

So your point is that these charges don't matter???? Yes, they do and we found out in 2013.


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[icedtea4me]

So your point is that these charges don't matter???? Yes, they do and we found out in 2013.


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Oh, they matter, but counts I, II, and III matter more due to the seriousness of their nature.

 

[Rott Mom]

IMO - their original plan was just what they did - protect BR - no matter how outlandish the cover-up was. They had money and power and thought they were above the law. I hate to say this, but it worked for the R's for twenty years now. They haven't fooled us.

 

[HarmonyE.]

IMO - their original plan was just what they did - protect BR - no matter how outlandish the cover-up was. They had money and power and thought they were above the law. I hate to say this, but it worked for the R's for twenty years now. They haven't fooled us.

Agree. There was no plan beyond - how do we make this look like someone came in and did this to our child? Patsy went to town trying to make it sound like her vision a of Hollywood version of a kidnapping, complete with terrorists, attache cases, electronic monitoring devices and bad-*advertiser censored* movie quotes. While (IMO) John got to work on a totally different version of events; in his version it was a sexual sadist who beat and tortured the child, but one with a tender enough heart to wrap her in a clean blanket with her favorite nightgown nearby. No wonder he wasn't really angry at the killer. Just wanted to understand him.

It seems pretty clear that the stagers did not work out a plan together. They were on completely different pages, which ultimately helped them greatly by confusing LE that much more.

 

[andreww]

Agree. There was no plan beyond - how do we make this look like someone came in and did this to our child? Patsy went to town trying to make it sound like her vision a of Hollywood version of a kidnapping, complete with terrorists, attache cases, electronic monitoring devices and bad-*advertiser censored* movie quotes. While (IMO) John got to work on a totally different version of events; in his version it was a sexual sadist who beat and tortured the child, but one with a tender enough heart to wrap her in a clean blanket with her favorite nightgown nearby. No wonder he wasn't really angry at the killer. Just wanted to understand him.

It seems pretty clear that the stagers did not work out a plan together. They were on completely different pages, which ultimately helped them greatly by confusing LE that much more.

My scenario is a bit different. Burke and JB playing doctor in the basement. Burke uses the paint brush as an examination tool and tears the hymen. JB screams and Burke immediately cracks her over the head with the flashlight. He pokes her with the train track thinking she is faking unconsciousness. From there the coverup begins. I truly believe that John didn't become involved until later that morning when he started to piece together what had happened.

 

[HarmonyE.]

My scenario is a bit different. Burke and JB playing doctor in the basement. Burke uses the paint brush as an examination tool and tears the hymen. JB screams and Burke immediately cracks her over the head with the flashlight. He pokes her with the train track thinking she is faking unconsciousness. From there the coverup begins. I truly believe that John didn't become involved until later that morning when he started to piece together what had happened.

JBR was afraid of that basement and having seen the newly released video, I'd be terrified of it too. I can't see her voluntarily doing anything down there. Could Burke have forced her down there? Possible, but the hymen was not torn or damaged that night. Whether from assault or other injury, it was older. The "sexual assault" was most likely part of the staging.

 

[Miz Adventure]

I really don't think that JR was sexually molesting his daughter. I get 'vibes' from people and my instincts tell me he was probably just a typical loving father. I could be wrong of course. He most definitely had a hand in the 'cover up' though.

I still believe that BR did both parts of the crime, Patsy wrote the note and the couple staged the murder to look as though an intruder had been in their home.

It still amazes me how many people swallowed their intruder story (and still do).

 

[andreww]

JBR was afraid of that basement and having seen the newly released video, I'd be terrified of it too. I can't see her voluntarily doing anything down there. Could Burke have forced her down there? Possible, but the hymen was not torn or damaged that night. Whether from assault or other injury, it was older. The "sexual assault" was most likely part of the staging.

Remember, it was the Ramsey's that said she was terrified of the basement so take that with a grain of salt. If you look at the theory of what likely happened you see the Ramsey's trying to distance themselves from all the evidence that supports that theory. The pineapple, the flashlight, the size 12s, the basement, etc.

 

[andreww]

I really don't think that JR was sexually molesting his daughter. I get 'vibes' from people and my instincts tell me he was probably just a typical loving father. I could be wrong of course. He most definitely had a hand in the 'cover up' though.

I still believe that BR did both parts of the crime, Patsy wrote the note and the couple staged the murder to look as though an intruder had been in their home.

It still amazes me how many people swallowed their intruder story (and still do).

John Ramsey was anything but a loving father. Stories from housekeepers attest to the fact that neither child received any affection from either parent. In photos and Christmas newsletters they appeared like a loving family, in reality they seemed to be neglectful. On JBs last day of life, Christmas day, Daddy takes off all day and mommy works on her hair. The kids are left to fend for themselves.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Remember, it was the Ramsey's that said she was terrified of the basement so take that with a grain of salt. If you look at the theory of what likely happened you see the Ramsey's trying to distance themselves from all the evidence that supports that theory. The pineapple, the flashlight, the size 12s, the basement, etc.

Well, her body was in the basement so it makes sense they'd want to distance themselves from it, no matter where the activities took place. As for her fear of that disaster of a basement, yes, the Ramseys could be lying, but it clearly was Burke and Patsy's crazy domain, there is no visual evidence that it was her play area. And your entire premise that Burke violently sexually assaulted her that night is not supported by the evidence.

 

[UKGuy]

Well, her body was in the basement so it makes sense they'd want to distance themselves from it, no matter where the activities took place. As for her fear of that disaster of a basement, yes, the Ramseys could be lying, but it clearly was Burke and Patsy's crazy domain, there is no visual evidence that it was her play area. And your entire premise that Burke violently sexually assaulted her that night is not supported by the evidence.

HarmonyE,
We know the R's are lying, they have been caught out so many times, from JR reading to JonBenet, to BR being sound asleep.

In the latest version of events BR returns downstairs, telling us that JonBenet was in her bedroom.

I reckon BR and JonBenet were sharing a bedroom and stuff happened.

The rest is staging.

.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Remember, it was the Ramsey's that said she was terrified of the basement so take that with a grain of salt. If you look at the theory of what likely happened you see the Ramsey's trying to distance themselves from all the evidence that supports that theory. The pineapple, the flashlight, the size 12s, the basement, etc.

I don't recall what the Ramseys said about JB and the basement, but their ex-nanny Linda Wilcox said this to Peter Boyles:

No one was ever down there much except maybe Burke. Burke was there occasionally. He had his train set down there. He was the only one who played down there. Patsy hardly ever went down there. She'd go down to get whatever she needed, she didn't like to go down there. It freaked JonBenet out. It was cold, it was damp, it was cluttered, it was dark. Pretty much the household help were the only ones who went down there.

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/07211998lindawilcoxon-pb.htm


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[HarmonyE.]

Cold, damp, cluttered and dark. And Burke enjoyed it down there...