What do you think the Ramsey's original plan was...

[BoldBear]

The Run Fantasy

The motives were to get from one moment to the next. John wanted to get the family out of Colorado. That means extraction and a legal battle from another state. The fact that he's a pilot could have also been on his mind. Cross to South of the border and find some place out of reach. $118,000 is fairly good bribe and gas money. Without the cash, such a run would have been a lot harder but possible. It all depends upon what type of connections John had in his business. It may have been a fantasy, but it did leave escape options open...so one moment to the next.

 

[Userid]

If RDI, and I am leaning that way, I agree with your theory that JBR was supposed to be in that suitcase and dumped either on the way to get the ransom money or on the way home. I wonder why there was a rush to do all of this that morning. I know they were getting ready to go to MIchigan to meet with JR's kids for a second Christmas, but someone could have delayed it by a day, saying someone had a virus or something along those lines. What was the hurry?

The suitcase is interesting to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that the contents of the suitcase were a children's book and a blanket, right? Now, why the heck would those items be chosen. To "weigh down" the suitcase to make it appear as if there is money in it crossed my mind, but that doesn't make sense. The other thought that crossed my mind was, initially, the R's were planning on staging a run-away -- because those are items that a little girl would pack if she was running away, perhaps.

 

[Afterimage]

I thank all of you for your posts. All of them are good and possible based on what we have to work with. I just don't know what their original plan was, however I do believe the following...

0. In the months before the murder...BR was molesting JB. (mostly digital penetration).
1. BDI. He was mad that JB took a piece of his pineapple out of his bowl. (and after being jealous of JB all day he hit his breaking point). He grabbed the flashlight or a baseball bat and whacked her. But, I don't think he intended to kill her. I do think it was an accident.
2. Now...here is where everything starts to diverge. There are so many different possibilities and we just don't know what happened and can only speculate. I think after trying to rouse JB with the train tracks and not getting a response, he told Patsy what happened.
3. I think that PR was freaking out at this point (screamed at seeing JB body). JR would have woken up then, or PR woke him up and told him what happened. I think she was really hysterical at this point. Her daughter was dead (or dying) on the floor. I don't think JR slept through all this. He had to be involved from this point on.
4. They sent B to bed and told him to stay there. During this next 30 min to 1 hour, they were deciding what to do. This accounts for the time between the head blow and the strangulation. They probably thought that JB died of a broken neck and had no idea of the massive head injury.
5. They decided to stage the crime. I think that both PR and JR took JB down to the area just outside the wine cellar and staged the sexual abuse by using the broken paint brush handle, then JR strangled her. They then staged the strangulation by wrapping the ligature around her neck and placing the paint brush handle in it.
6. PR then wrote the ransom note..but I think JR was present with P and may have even dictated (all or parts of it) to her.
7. They then called 911.

But out of most of our theories a few things stand out in all of them.

1. There was something majorly wrong with the surviving members of that family.
2. Burke was involved and he started the whole chain of events.
3. J and/or P decided to cover up what really happened...and avoided responsibility at all cost.
4. They were fortunate that they could afford a stellar defense team and that the DA had no interest in pursuing the prosecution of the crime.

There is so much you can talk about in this case...it never ends.

 

[chlban]

But why, if JR found JonBenet in the basement, would he not have called police to her location immediately? If he didn't know what had happened, why would he play along and not just cooperate fully with police in the first place?

I think once he read the RN, and knew Patsy had written it, he clearly knew something horrible had happened. He could have found the body, been afraid to alert the police, not knowing the whole story, then thought about it more and decided to just go ahead and let it be known where it was.
I mean if you find a RN written by your wife, your daughter is "missing" and you then find her body, you clearly know there is a whole lot of bad going on and if you are still unclear exactly what transpired, that you might give the whole scenario some thought before reacting publicly.

On the heels of the BDI theory taking hold and taking over after the CBS show, I got to thinking of one other option that I guess combines my long held PDI with BDI. Maybe it has been discussed, and I missed it, but has anyone considered the possibility that PDI, staged it, wrote the note etc. but when finally confronted by John told him that BDI?

I personally don't think it's automatic that John would have only covered up for Burke. I think both he and Patsy were the type of people that were worried enough about appearances that he likely would have covered for Patsy. But I also would not put it past her to throw her son under the bus and convince John that is who he was protecting.

 

[zencompass]

That is one impressive post, chlban !

 

[kanzz]

Is it just me? I just think it would be nearly impossible to fit a 47" long, 45# corpse into this suitcase.
I chose this photo for size comparison. So far, I've been unable to find the dimensions anywhere. The only thing I did find were mentions that the idea of putting the corpse in the suitcase was another IDI theory that the DA's office put forth.

 

[Heymom]

I think once he read the RN, and knew Patsy had written it, he clearly knew something horrible had happened. He could have found the body, been afraid to alert the police, not knowing the whole story, then thought about it more and decided to just go ahead and let it be known where it was.
I mean if you find a RN written by your wife, your daughter is "missing" and you then find her body, you clearly know there is a whole lot of bad going on and if you are still unclear exactly what transpired, that you might give the whole scenario some thought before reacting publicly.

On the heels of the BDI theory taking hold and taking over after the CBS show, I got to thinking of one other option that I guess combines my long held PDI with BDI. Maybe it has been discussed, and I missed it, but has anyone considered the possibility that PDI, staged it, wrote the note etc. but when finally confronted by John told him that BDI?

I personally don't think it's automatic that John would have only covered up for Burke. I think both he and Patsy were the type of people that were worried enough about appearances that he likely would have covered for Patsy. But I also would not put it past her to throw her son under the bus and convince John that is who he was protecting.

I'm not buying it. Put yourself into that scenario and imagine what you, as a reasonable human being, would do. You'd freak the hell out if you didn't even know your daughter was dead and then you found her body while the police were still there. Consequences be damned, you'd yell for help! Let the chips fall where they may, if my husband had staged some crime, he'd be doing time, not sitting beside me a few days later for a TV appearance.

 

[zencompass]

That's the thing though - it isn't you or me. It happened to a person who likely knew instinctively who caused J.B.'s murder. It happened to a person who
had been aware for years that his child had psychiatric problems and yet ignored this. A person who knew their home was far more full of problems than solutions and most importantly that his children were experiencing problems and suffering from them - on a daily basis.

Although I don't know you HeyMom (do love your screen name though !) I agree 100% with you that my reaction would be similar to yours and the one you
just described.

But with this case - we are talking about someone completely different than us - someone who possibly only cared about his external appearance to the world. Possibly
someone who brushed aside thoughts or even panicked family members who were anxious that the situation was such that violence could occur
any day. Someone so narcissistic that we can't even imagine. That is because we are compassionate, in my opinion. We can't think that way because
we are not "wired" that way.

This is just my opinion. If we knew the truth (or could read the G.J. report) then we wouldn't need all of these opinions! In my opinion.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Is it just me? I just think it would be nearly impossible to fit a 47" long, 45# corpse into this suitcase.
I chose this photo for size comparison. So far, I've been unable to find the dimensions anywhere. The only thing I did find were mentions that the idea of putting the corpse in the suitcase was another IDI theory that the DA's office put forth.

I agree. That is not at all an adequately sized attache case.




Drunk or not, I don't see Patsy attempting to pull off any sort of cover up without first pulling John into this. I lean towards Patsy being the parent who first found out about the crime simply because we know she never took her make up off or got undressed, but it's possible John hadn't gone to bed yet either, despite his claim. Regardless, in full-on panic mode Patsy probably couldn't have done all that needed to be done on her own. The RN is her handiwork and I agree with the poster upthread who said it's possible she was thinking of the housekeeper along with the fake foreign faction as she rambled on.




Burke is awake and heard on the 911 call. John is there too. Within minutes, however, the first officer arrives and Burke is back in bed pretending to be asleep. I can't believe John didn't know what happened before then. He was too collected. Even a full-blood Vulcan would have appeared confused, bewildered and upset if he'd just witnessed Patsy tell Burke to go back to bed and keep his mouth shut, and then turned to John and said "I'll explain later". Weird ransom note, kid told emphatically to stay silent and a few minutes later, John is just going along with it all, not knowing anything else about his daughter? I can't buy it.




John made a fateful decision at some point that night by either coming up with the cover up idea on his own or by going along with Patsy. He probably didn't write or compose the note, but that doesn't mean he wasn't working on other parts of the staging while Patsy was working on it. And given the fairly limited amount of time they had (we don't know when they found her) both of them may have needed to work separately to pull off the cover up of the century. With a little help from their friends and some hapless cops.

 

[Heymom]

That's the thing though - it isn't you or me. It happened to a person who likely knew instinctively who caused J.B.'s murder. It happened to a person who
had been aware for years that his child had psychiatric problems and yet ignored this. A person who knew their home was far more full of problems than solutions and most importantly that his children were experiencing problems and suffering from them - on a daily basis.

Although I don't know you HeyMom (do love your screen name though !) I agree 100% with you that my reaction would be similar to yours and the one you
just described.

But with this case - we are talking about someone completely different than us - someone who possibly only cared about his external appearance to the world. Possibly
someone who brushed aside thoughts or even panicked family members who were anxious that the situation was such that violence could occur
any day. Someone so narcissistic that we can't even imagine. That is because we are compassionate, in my opinion. We can't think that way because
we are not "wired" that way.

This is just my opinion. If we knew the truth (or could read the G.J. report) then we wouldn't need all of these opinions! In my opinion.

Thank you! I used this username a lot when my kids were younger and that was what I heard all day, "Hey Mom! Hey Mom! Mom! Hey Mom!"

See, I don't know if JR & PR were really all that abnormal. I think they had their flaws, yes, and being in denial about their son was one of those, unfortunately it turned out to be fatal for JonBenet. Some of what they display later on, I believe was caused by the big lie and cover-up they started that night and continue to this day (at least JR does). Selfish, caught up in his work, maybe somewhat narcissistic (many men are), but I do not believe that he could be so cold and calculating as to remain unmoved if he found his daughter lying in the cellar when he didn't know she was dead. We've had 20 years to pore over this case and watch him and her endlessly, and dissect every aspect of the case (to the extent we know it). But in the moment I just can't see that particular scenario playing out. I can see both parents realizing that they needed to save their remaining child, and risk losing their freedom (and him), and in the shock and grief, going forward with a crazy plan (probably more Patsy than John) that ended up working and buying them their freedom.

 

[Afterimage]

I agree with you HarmonyE and Heymom. Nicely said!

 

[sek4278]

I'm not wedded to one theory but cannot find any great motive for PR or JR. If BR did it, here is how it could have gone down.
Burke gets JBR into the basement, attacks her/sexual assault, she screams, he hits her with flashlight or something. PR investigates -- sends BR to bed, stages JBR. Writes note (full of drama and excess verbiage, can't be JR). She disposes of excess nylon, tape, gloves in neighbor's trash; waits for JR to wake up, goes to kitchen. JR suspects but insists on calling the police. PR calls an entourage to protect her from police, JR tries to think it out. He investigates downstairs, finds her.

I really want to say JR knew too, but I don't understand why they called the police. They could have put the boy in the car via the garage and disposed of her.

I also have trouble with BDI -- but both parents are so squeaky clean, in a way that feels genuine, not that I want to have lunch with them are anything. I just don't see either of them doing something so awful out of nowhere.

 

[BBB167893]

I'm not wedded to one theory but cannot find any great motive for PR or JR. If BR did it, here is how it could have gone down.
Burke gets JBR into the basement, attacks her/sexual assault, she screams, he hits her with flashlight or something. PR investigates -- sends BR to bed, stages JBR. Writes note (full of drama and excess verbiage, can't be JR). She disposes of excess nylon, tape, gloves in neighbor's trash; waits for JR to wake up, goes to kitchen. JR suspects but insists on calling the police. PR calls an entourage to protect her from police, JR tries to think it out. He investigates downstairs, finds her.

I really want to say JR knew too, but I don't understand why they called the police. They could have put the boy in the car via the garage and disposed of her.

I also have trouble with BDI -- but both parents are so squeaky clean, in a way that feels genuine, not that I want to have lunch with them are anything. I just don't see either of them doing something so awful out of nowhere.

I can. I had to learn the hard way that anyone is capable of anything, given the right circumstances. We, as humans, are instinctively violent. We maintain civilization by agreeing to suppress the instinct, and it doesn't always work.

If that's too general, let's get specific. If I can believe that Jeffrey MacDonald gave his baby daughter a bottle after slaughtering her, I can believe this. Especially because, for all that the FORM was horrible, the SUBSTANCE was lacking. The garrote allowed the "killer" to operate without looking JB in the face, touching her, making any noise or making a bloody mess. The injuries done to her seem almost calculated to be easily hidden from sight so as not to disfigure her. Anyone see where I'm going with this?

 

[ElleElle]

I cannot wait to hear other ideas!
They had no clue the cops would camp out. They would go on with their plans & would dispose of the body. Incredibly I think they figured the cops would leave & they'd carry on with their plans. Sorta a 'keep in touch' while they flew out.
The fact that this was their desire is just so incriminating and disgusting. And so so sad for JBR

I think they were going to take her body with them to Charlevoix and they thought she would never be found; therefore, the kidnapping would of been a success.
I don't think they thought LE would've of stuck around for as long as they did, and this is why John "found the body" in the cellar. I think he panicked towards the end.
This was planned very frantically, and the thought was not fully there to plan the cover-up.

 

[ElleElle]

I was thinking the same thing. If the original plan was to get rid of the body, they would have just gotten rid of the body. It's not like there was anything that was stopping, and they had an attached garage to the house. They could have just disposed of the body in the middle of the night, got back home, then called the police.

Now I'm beginning to think why they didn't just do this in the first place. Why go through all this trouble? You still could have staged the kidnapping. Was a proper burial the priority? Even at the risk of getting caught?

I also wonder if at some point, the body wasn't in the crawl space of the basement. This would have been the more logical place to hide a body, if you didn't want it to be found. I wonder if the body was moved while the cops where there (upstairs). Or if the wine cellar was chosen because it was perceived to be more "air-tight" to hide any smell.

BBM ~ Wine cellars also tend to be naturally cooler, hence to slow down decomposition.

 

[ElleElle]

If it wasn't for the (farfetched) ransom note then I think the police would have found her body because there would have been a thorough search of the house.

I have changed my mind several times about the scenario. Lately I have been pondering whether J.R. was aware of anything before he saw the r.n.

I think that possibly PR found the body, panicked and wrote the long r.n. I think that J.R. may not have had anything to do with it. When Patsy showed him the
r.n. then he insisted on calling the police immediately.

The first time J.R. "disappeared" was possibly when he located the body for the first time and he returned looking "distressed". I think he figured it out quickly enough.

Just my opinion of the day. My opinion may change and likely will!

Until those Grand Jury findings and all of the evidence they saw/heard is unsealed, it's difficult (for me anyway !)

Phoning people to come over was an idea that worked for the R's - create confusion and distraction. Police had to take the possibility of a kidnapping seriously so
that is why the house was not thoroughly searched. The r.n. and the confusion with people coming and going was a bizarre idea - and it ultimately worked.

Also, being Boulder, a not very high violent crime community, and to add the day after Xmas, they probably thought there are no seasoned LE around to properly investigate.

 

[Tortoise]

I think they were going to take her body with them to Charlevoix and they thought she would never be found; therefore, the kidnapping would of been a success.
I don't think they thought LE would've of stuck around for as long as they did, and this is why John "found the body" in the cellar. I think he panicked towards the end.
This was planned very frantically, and the thought was not fully there to plan the cover-up.

I can't see this being their plan. Do you think they thought it would not look suspicious if they just went ahead with a planned vacation, while their daughter was purportedly in the hands of a kidnapper in CO?

 

[Me66]

Other than "let's make it look like someone else did it" I doubt that much planning happened at all. There are too many silly things - the note, not removing the body before they called LE, using items from obscure places in the home etc. I think that they would have been panicked and making it up as they went along, adding bits and pieces that seemed to fit their agreed story of IDI.

 

[zencompass]

Also, being Boulder, a not very high violent crime community, and to add the day after Xmas, they probably thought there are no seasoned LE around to properly investigate.

Good thinking Elle Elle! They truly "lucked out" with this.

 

[Heymom]

I think they were going to take her body with them to Charlevoix and they thought she would never be found; therefore, the kidnapping would of been a success.
I don't think they thought LE would've of stuck around for as long as they did, and this is why John "found the body" in the cellar. I think he panicked towards the end.
This was planned very frantically, and the thought was not fully there to plan the cover-up.

Is this Elle from FFJ?