What have you guys...

[sissi]

I wonder about the leverage needed to apply that blow? Could one be standing and hit someone that hard on the floor? Looks almost like the kind of wound one sees in people who were kicked by a horse.Who was the guy, Spitz?, who demonstated the hit? Where did he place the "object", on a table or on the floor, does anyone remember?

 

[wenchie]

It made me think of tire iron/baseball bat. If it was the flashlight (and it probably was), it would have had to be slammed with incredible rage and strength. Someone was probably in a fugue state when they did it.

The garotte (IMO) was added later to make it look like a sexual crime, but more importantly - to make it NOT look like an accident. Just a blow to the head would have immediately made LE look to one of the parents.

Another point that's always seemed obvious to me was Patsy's appearance that morning. Patsy wears "full" makeup, not just a little mascara and lipstick.

Now.....maybe there are high school-age girls who can do on that upon just waking up - but by the time you're in your late thirties - and having at most 6 hours sleep the night before after running around all day - it's highly unusual.

Most people need a shower or coffee or both before they can go through those machinations. Yet - she did hair, clothes and makeup before she even went downstairs. All this, when she was going to be travelling on a private plane and only her immediate family would be seeing her.

Now exactly incriminating - but added to all the other odd things - it adds up to her having been up all night.

 

[Seeker]

If the flashlight was used and it created that crack in her skull (8 1/2") due to the sheer force of the impact, why isn't the glass on the flashlight itself cracked?

Try an experiment sometime and you'll see the glass in the flashlight fracture as well. Just dropping the thing can cause major cracks in the lense, yet the BPD wants everyone to believe enough force to create a crack in a skull (which is a hellofalot more than just dropping it) wouldn't crack the lense as well?

 

[sissi]

I can't imagine that if she were involved in any way, knowing her child was dead that her makeup wouldn't have been a smeared mascara mess, and she wouldn't have had the composure to put it back on in such a nice fashion.
I'm older than Patsy, and wouldn't get the mail in,or open the door for my grown children without the whole deal, foundation, blush, shadow, mascara and lipstick. Christmas morning, no, I would never make them wait so long to go downstairs, not when they were little, so there are pictures everywhere of some homely woman with my children.

 

[wenchie]

I'm not locked in on that one. It could be, as some have mention here - a hard slam against something in the bathroom. The flashlight could have simply been used to assist in the hiding of the body in the basement and the staging - without waking the family.

I've just not seen one iota of evidence of an intruder in that home.

 

[sissi]

If the flashlight was used and it created that crack in her skull (8 1/2") due to the sheer force of the impact, why isn't the glass on the flashlight itself cracked?

Try an experiment sometime and you'll see the glass in the flashlight fracture as well. Just dropping the thing can cause major cracks in the lense, yet the BPD wants everyone to believe enough force to create a crack in a skull (which is a hellofalot more than just dropping it) wouldn't crack the lense as well?

Good point ,Det. Seeker!

 

[tezi]

I think that the skull fracture could have come from the edge of the bathtub. JMO

 

[sissi]

I think that the skull fracture could have come from the edge of the bathtub. JMO

But how? She would have had to be hanging completely upside down with the back /top of her head positioned for impact. Have you looked at the area where the bone was displaced? Then she couldn't have been "swung" into it, she would have had to be dropped..or pile driven into it. IMO that would have broken her neck, as well.

 

[wenchie]

Her makeup wasn't smeared during their one-way press conference. It was very heavy, and very perfect. During her "I loved that child with my whole heart" speak, she didn't shed any tears.

Patsy's a real oddity. And yes - I can see her, on realizing that she had done serious damage to her child - immediately thinking of herself, her reputation, and her social standing.

So now I've heard of two women in this universe who can get up at 5:00 and within 15 minutes (with no coffee) can be completely dressed and made up.

That's two. I'd be very interesting in hearing from any others.

 

[wenchie]

Yes.....the crack looks like it's right across the top of the head. It could have happened from someone being violently thrown down on the floor and then yanked back up again, hitting the head on the sink or toilet. OR.....just being thrown violently into the tub sideways.

It's just so horrible to think about..........

 

[sissi]

Yes.....the crack looks like it's right across the top of the head. It could have happened from someone being violently thrown down on the floor and then yanked back up again, hitting the head on the sink or toilet. OR.....just being thrown violently into the tub sideways.

It's just so horrible to think about..........

Yes it is!
If a neighbor on questioning told me about negative energy and then suggested she didn't want to get involved and then told of the scream, I ,if a cop, would be interested in her house and outbuildings. Did she have a shed or garage, did anyone look? Who were the twins that lived with her, how quickly did she vacate Boulder after the murder? So much was neglected IMO. Sounds like Jonbenet was a living pinata. Horrible!

 

[wenchie]

I read DOI a few years ago, but I have to admit that I skimmed through parts of it. It sounded like so much PR bull, a lot of it designed to confuse the real FACTS of the case.

Refusing to take a lie detector test, and calling it "voodoo science"? Why would a totally innocent person be afraid of a lie detector test?

I could go on and on about this - and probably will, as time goes by.

 

[Jayelles]

I would put Wecht and Singlulair on your must reads.

SERIOUSLY???

I think Wecht's book is excellent for explaining the autopsy in lay terms but I thought Singular's book was one of the worst books I have ever read. It built up and up and up with a promise of some amazing revelation at the end ... but then it just fizzled out with no revelations. It was like he was in the middle of telling a story on the phone when someone walked it and he had to hang up.

Absolutely dreadful.

 

[Jayelles]

It made me think of tire iron/baseball bat. If it was the flashlight (and it probably was), it would have had to be slammed with incredible rage and strength. Someone was probably in a fugue state when they did it.

The garotte (IMO) was added later to make it look like a sexual crime, but more importantly - to make it NOT look like an accident. Just a blow to the head would have immediately made LE look to one of the parents.

Another point that's always seemed obvious to me was Patsy's appearance that morning. Patsy wears "full" makeup, not just a little mascara and lipstick.

Now.....maybe there are high school-age girls who can do on that upon just waking up - but by the time you're in your late thirties - and having at most 6 hours sleep the night before after running around all day - it's highly unusual.

Most people need a shower or coffee or both before they can go through those machinations. Yet - she did hair, clothes and makeup before she even went downstairs. All this, when she was going to be travelling on a private plane and only her immediate family would be seeing her.

Now exactly incriminating - but added to all the other odd things - it adds up to her having been up all night.

I think one would get practiced at applying full make-up. I don't wear a lot of make-up but I do apply it every working day and it takes me just a couple of minutes. I do have two cups of coffee and breakfast before doing so - but only because I brush my teeth after having breakfast and I don't like to put my make-up on till after I've brushed my teeth.

I always shower and dress before going downstairs. The ramseys house was huge. I imagine they'd schedule their oblutions in a way that would minimise the amount of running up and down stairs.

 

[sissi]

Yes it makes the orange juice taste weird! I always did it because of possible interruptions, once downstairs there was little chance to get the opportunity to get back up for myself.

Singular's book didn't offer any revelations, it was a kind of odd book, he conjured a hypothesis but couldn't work toward a conclusion, so instead he did offer the reader a few other possibilities..like the sacrifices made on the mountain..old cults, and that Hunter didn't seem interested in talking to a man who claimed to KNOW who killed Jonbenet. I thought his book was one of the best, it gave a peek at a part of society that no one really wants to know exists. He offered strong possibilities that she was photographed for child *advertiser censored*,and, had he not included John Ramsey as taking part, he would possibly have found what he was looking for, instead he blocked his own path.

 

[tezi]

But how? She would have had to be hanging completely upside down with the back /top of her head positioned for impact. Have you looked at the area where the bone was displaced? Then she couldn't have been "swung" into it, she would have had to be dropped..or pile driven into it. IMO that would have broken her neck, as well.

Yes, more times than you want to know. Have you looked at them closely? Please don't insult my intelligence by asking me if I have looked at the photos. Obviously you think that I am a newbie to this case....I am not. I have been studying this case since it happened. I have been posting on this forum for 5+ years, and over at FFJ for over two and a half. It happened very near where I used to live. It is very possible that she was hit either on purpose or on accident, and fell against the bathtub with her head. Thus, the fracture in her skull.

Just to let you know where I stand on one issue.....I don't take Judge Carnes' declaration as being anywhere near factual or correct. Judge Carnes did not have all the available and necessary facts in order to make her decision. But, hey, why let the facts deter her????

 

[sissi]

Have ya looked..........? certainly wasn't meant to be an insult. If you think it is possible she was thrown into a tub by Patsy in a maniacal rage, that's your choice. I do not like being confrontational, it's not my style, sorry if it seemed that way. IMO they can't go forward with making a Ramsey responsible because a Ramsey didn't do it, they need to look at this case in a different light. This position is my opinion, this is a place to discuss our take on the case, correct?

Keenan ,who has all of the facts, backed Carnes in her decision!

 

[sissi]

This is at least interesting.
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg51312.html

 

[sissi]

I think the note was written by Patsy in a psychological state of dissociation and regression to a juvenile persona in the manner of MPD/DID. The note is the content of her psychosis. It seems ridiculous in the same way dreams seem incomprehensible. The note is irrational, but like dreams it has form and pattern while having a low degree of rationality.

Patsy is the author AND SUBJECT of the note. All the elements in the note, incuding the character John, have much more to do with Patsy's mind than anything in the real world.

Psychotics can't tell the difference between objects in their mind and objects in the temporal world. Patsy fused her identity with JonBenet over a period of time. That fusion accelerated near the deadline of Christmas '96. Patsy used JonBenet as an object in her psychotic fantasy
The note can be understood.

Welcome Back Brother Moon!

 

[wenchie]

At the very least, investigators could have asked friends, the housekeeper, etc. if they knew if Patsy always put on makeup before she came downstairs in the morning.

It wasn't 8:30 am when she got up - it was 5:00 am!

It was interesting enough to the police for them to take note of it, and they see people in their homes during all hours of the day and night. Patsy wears enough makeup that it was instantly noticeable.

You can see that she wears full foundation, concealer, etc. It must have been mentioned to her many times, because in their interview a weel after their daughter's death, she's made up like she's going onstage - complete with perfect lipstick - but in the special (ugh!) "Who Killed Jonbenet Ramsey" she's practically bare-faced.

Then when she's in the recent interview about John's political aspirations, she's back in full face, almost competing with Tammy Faye in that area.

Everything they do is staged.