What Is the Defense Strategy?

[SoCalSleuth]

I agree. PTSD does not fit with ICAs actions or character flaws. I don't believe it will carry much weight.
I have PTSD from a very traumatic event which I still have a hard time coping with, yet I don't lie, steal or kill.

So sorry to hear about your ptsd.

 

[SoCalSleuth]

SoCalSleuth, I'm so sorry for what your SO is going through ~ and it sounds like (former navy seal) that it was probably caused by something that happened while defending our country. Please give your SO my sincere thanks.

I, also, have two family members who are being treated for PTSD (and one has traumatic brain injury on top of the PTSD from his injury in the Iraq theatre) so I really empathize with you on many levels.

You are so right to point out that PTSD wouldn't make anyone steal and lie (and I sure haven't seen any evidence of that in my two loves) but I can sure see that it causes huge, really huge, character shifts. While I wouldn't be able to say PTSD makes anything happen ~ I think their hyper-drive to protect themselves allows these behaviors (subconsciously?) to surface. I'm sure, too, there are different degrees of PTSD so, naturally, some of those expressed behaviors could be either subtile or huge.

If this is a defense that Casey's team will be using, it makes me sick to my stomach. This is a hero's disease, a survivor's disease. It is not a convenient diagnosis that should be used to excuse immoral acts . . . they are belittling all those who struggle with it on a daily basis.

He has permanent physical disabilities too so I can empathize with you as well. Huge character shifts is putting it mildly!! But I haven't read anything in the literature that would attribute the behaviors I previously mentioned to ptsd. The character shifts, so to speak, go to things like anger, irritability, etc.. --not a change in morals. PTSD sufferers cleary still recognize right from wrong.

 

[janine]

They feed off each other. They literally have alienated everyone around them. I think CA was crying because she knows KC is at the end of another hallway. jmo

Hi- just a thought. Do you think CA was crying because she once again sat through an entire day worth of hearings and not one single time did her daughter, the same daughter CA is risking everything for, ever look at he,r or acknowledge her in any way shape or form? Maybe CA had just had it and let her emotions go. I guess supporting a self entitled waste is not very fulfilling.

I think that has to be like being slugged in the gut by her daughter every day. Not even a glance over to her. CA looks like a puppy just begging for a crumb and...nothing. I could be wrong.

Just a thought.

 

[katydid23]

Thanks, it's a pretty frustrating & exasperating time for me--but obviously much worse for him. The diagnostic criteria for PTSD is the same regardless of the "trauma" that caused it. The gamut of symptoms are also the same, although not everyone has the same symptoms. BTW, lying is not a symptom.

I know that Casey does NOT suffer from PTSD. I just think that her DT is going to try and say she does.

 

[MissJames]

Do you think though, MissJames, that we haven't really seen much of CA or GA in the last year or so? Every once in a while we see a bit of a blip of them in a hearing or in a news clip - but we really don't know what she does or thinks or how often she cries when she is sitting in that house, the same house where little Caylee ran down to hall to and from her bedroom. Or when she looks out of her kitchen window, and sees the pool. Are you thinking she doesn't grieve?

That's really hard for me to believe.

I guess what I'm talking about is the kind of grief that is physical and uncontrollable.Its more than being sad,or weepy. The video of Cindy with Michele Bart,around the time they were going to hold that big press conference,and Mark NeJame quit,Cindy looked devastated and was unable to pull it together.That's what I'm talking about.
I really think Cindy learned the truth just before that video was made.
I just know I could not sit through public discussions of my son's death without showing grief at some point. I have adult children,as well as young kids and it just wells up them and is quite obvious. Anger is definitely a part of it,but just a part.Aside from that one video and the time GA threw up talking to LE,I really haven't seen anything but anger.

CA said on the witness stand that she thought Caylee was still alive. If true ,she doesn't seem too concerned about where she is or who she's with. Just another odd layer to this very odd family that doesn't reconcile with grieving IMO.
I have attended support groups for grieving families of children as well as a group that included families who's loved ones were murdered ,killed by drunk drivers and teen suicide. I've just never seen anyone like the A's.

I haven't seen anything on their part that actually shows love and concern for Caylee ,since the 31st night.Only CYA for themselves and ICA. They never looked for her and never wanted anyone else to look for her. They have not supported anyone trying to help get justice for Caylee. I don't doubt there are things they miss about having Caylee,but I still don't think it's real grief or they wouldn't be behaving as they are. But that's just me.:innocent: and just my own opinion and experience.

 

[MissJames]

I agree. PTSD does not fit with ICAs actions or character flaws. I don't believe it will carry much weight.
I have PTSD from a very traumatic event which I still have a hard time coping with, yet I don't lie, steal or kill.

I hope you and your son get true justice :hug:

Many of us have what is known as "complicated" grief,due to the circumstances surrounding an event or loved one's death. The A's is super complicated,but they've chosen to make it even more so by their own actions. JMO

 

[pip]

Cindy knows good and well that Caylee is deceased, and has all along. My radar was alerted when she started saying 'I believe Caylee is still alive', not because I feel she is delusional or in denial, but because this is defense strategy in action. Building the scenario as it will relate to Cindy's overpowering, overbearing mothering skills. Defense will highlight ICA's mother Cindy as blind to obvious facts and distorted reality, as she stormtroops right over people with her own version of reality, which after enduring a lifetime of this behavior from Cindy, ICA develops PTSD (in conjunction with other family 'traumas').
Funny thing is, fits Cindy to a T, but I don't believe it caused PTSD in ICA..just lots of animosity and power struggle between the two. None of which is an excuse for murder.
Remember, this PTSD defense was already in the works dating back to at least June, 2010 when the DT tried to have expert visits to the jail kept secret.

 

[Feebot]

My husband died very suddenly. He went to work and never came home. I was devistated aand pretty much paralyzed as far as day to day activites for a long time. Even now after 15 years I still feel the pain. My point is that NEVER did Casey show any grief. CA does show some grief, but somehow I think her grief is more for "what could have been."

 

[MissJames]

That was a sad representation on jb part....then when he would try to out smart the good doctor....then say "layman" terms --- like all of a sudden he is above? It was sad...don't blame the good doctor for being frazzeled...I was myself---I also don't think he testifies all that much---but then you can only state the truth and scientific fact so many times and have someone contradict you....tell you it was like watching one of my moms doctors (first time they met)---try to access her in the midst of dementia---she could talk circle ease the best ever!---after that first appointment he said he needed and asprin....I had already taken mine---I'd been around the talk --- but it is frustrating to try to get someone to listen and the mind block....I felt the same frustration watching jb....it was sad and pathetic....and the paranoia over their computer screens....well went down that path with mom too....:maddening:

Oh yes,spent the last 6 years on that path,also. Completely get the circular conversations and paranoia. It wouldn't be so bad if they were in a happy place .Dad died last June,but he was gone long before that .
Odd how we can relate it to the Dt :crazy: but there are similarities :waitasec:

 

[MissJames]

I have to wonder if the SA has an expert in Sociopaths, just sitting there patiently waiting in the wings .........

I just bet they do :dance:

Do you think the SA will depo the DT drs that are being added ?

 

[faefrost]

I have to wonder if the SA has an expert in Sociopaths, just sitting there patiently waiting in the wings .........

This is the State Prosecutors office. I'm betting they have a forensic psych specialist on speed dial. They probably sent him the case file back in August or September 2008.

 

[Wagara]

Cindy knows good and well that Caylee is deceased, and has all along. My radar was alerted when she started saying 'I believe Caylee is still alive', not because I feel she is delusional or in denial, but because this is defense strategy in action. Building the scenario as it will relate to Cindy's overpowering, overbearing mothering skills. Defense will highlight ICA's mother Cindy as blind to obvious facts and distorted reality, as she stormtroops right over people with her own version of reality, which after enduring a lifetime of this behavior from Cindy, ICA develops PTSD (in conjunction with other family 'traumas').
Funny thing is, fits Cindy to a T, but I don't believe it caused PTSD in ICA..just lots of animosity and power struggle between the two. None of which is an excuse for murder.
Remember, this PTSD defense was already in the works dating back to at least June, 2010 when the DT tried to have expert visits to the jail kept secret.

Does anyone know when the last time is that CA stated that Caylee was still alive? I wouldn't even know how to go about finding the information but your guys are so good...!

 

[logicalgirl]

I guess what I'm talking about is the kind of grief that is physical and uncontrollable.Its more than being sad,or weepy. The video of Cindy with Michele Bart,around the time they were going to hold that big press conference,and Mark NeJame quit,Cindy looked devastated and was unable to pull it together.That's what I'm talking about.
I really think Cindy learned the truth just before that video was made.
I just know I could not sit through public discussions of my son's death without showing grief at some point. I have adult children,as well as young kids and it just wells up them and is quite obvious. Anger is definitely a part of it,but just a part.Aside from that one video and the time GA threw up talking to LE,I really haven't seen anything but anger.

CA said on the witness stand that she thought Caylee was still alive. If true ,she doesn't seem too concerned about where she is or who she's with. Just another odd layer to this very odd family that doesn't reconcile with grieving IMO.
I have attended support groups for grieving families of children as well as a group that included families who's loved ones were murdered ,killed by drunk drivers and teen suicide. I've just never seen anyone like the A's.

I haven't seen anything on their part that actually shows love and concern for Caylee ,since the 31st night.Only CYA for themselves and ICA. They never looked for her and never wanted anyone else to look for her. They have not supported anyone trying to help get justice for Caylee. I don't doubt there are things they miss about having Caylee,but I still don't think it's real grief or they wouldn't be behaving as they are. But that's just me.:innocent: and just my own opinion and experience.

I guess I have had a personal epiphany on this board. And it has been because I find myself very cautious about making judgments about what other people are feeling. It is not that I feel critical of other people who can - at all - I know that is definitely not what I feel when I read comments in various threads.

But as I bring myself to the edge of that particular cliff - I cannot make myself make the leap. And it is about me. I am one of those weird people who seems incapable of expressing public grief. I've certainly had more than my share of personal losses and tragedies, yet I am the one with the stoic face who calls the police, calls the morgue, does the cleanup, comforts other survivors. That does NOT make me the hero but it is because I have gone to a "different place" and will appear almost normal.

During a particular difficult time a friend said to me, " I sure wish I could be like you, nothing bothers you" and I almost quipped "Gee, could you call my therapist because she thinks I am suicidal."

In private times, away from "the eyes" I am inconsolable and carry grief for what feels like forever. Sorry if this seems too personal.

So while I know some see me as a Cindy supporter - that is not true. I just want to be absolutely sure before I say she is everything she appears to be. To me, words spoken or written are there forever and can't be taken back (from karma).

Hope that answers why I question some of your thoughts. It is not that I am being critical of what you are saying - it is that I want more information as to why you are so sure.

 

[LancelotLink]

Does anyone know when the last time is that CA stated that Caylee was still alive? I wouldn't even know how to go about finding the information but your guys are so good...!

Last time I can recall was the 911 hearings earlier this year.

 

[MissJames]

I guess I have had a personal epiphany on this board. And it has been because I find myself very cautious about making judgments about what other people are feeling. It is not that I feel critical of other people who can - at all - I know that is definitely not what I feel when I read comments in various threads.

But as I bring myself to the edge of that particular cliff - I cannot make myself make the leap. And it is about me. I am one of those weird people who seems incapable of expressing public grief. I've certainly had more than my share of personal losses and tragedies, yet I am the one with the stoic face who calls the police, calls the morgue, does the cleanup, comforts other survivors. That does NOT make me the hero but it is because I have gone to a "different place" and will appear almost normal.

During a particular difficult time a friend said to me, " I sure wish I could be like you, nothing bothers you" and I almost quipped "Gee, could you call my therapist because she thinks I am suicidal."

In private times, away from "the eyes" I am inconsolable and carry grief for what feels like forever. Sorry if this seems too personal.

So while I know some see me as a Cindy supporter - that is not true. I just want to be absolutely sure before I say she is everything she appears to be. To me, words spoken or written are there forever and can't be taken back (from karma).

Hope that answers why I question some of your thoughts. It is not that I am being critical of what you are saying - it is that I want more information as to why you are so sure.

Geez,LogicalGirl,too personal? Not in my view.I appreciate the insight. I also don't think you are a CA supporter!

I just haven't seen anyone who could keep it hidden,but that was my experience .I can tell you that although I definitely grieved for my parents,it was very different than when I lost my child. It seems to me there is a different component when a child suffers and dies ,whether it's your own,or a stranger's.That's not to diminish anyone's grief when an adult dies,but children capture something within all of us ,like nothing else does.The younger ,more vulnerable ,they are,the harder we fall.

Also ,my opinion on the A's not truly grieving has much to do with their lies about what really happened . It just looks like they set Caylee aside in order to save ICA ,when they must know the truth. I don't see them as stoic ,doing what needs to be done. I see them as bullies who will mow down any innocent person in their way.If they can throw Amy H under the bus and try to discredit TM (as Caylee's remains lay decomposing in the woods) ,I'm just not sure they are even capable of true grief.JMO

 

[logicalgirl]

Thank you Miss James - I see your point(s).:blowkiss:

I am still seeing the Caylee/Anthony's issue and the ICA/Anthony issue as two separate things I guess.

It really wasn't surprising to me that the Anthony's accused other people in the initial 6 months because they were so sure ICA was innocent. To them if everyone was accusing ICA, then why wouldn't they accuse other people? That would only be fair (in their mind).

For me this was their public face - what they did in private concerning Caylee I have no idea at all, except what we know of them hoping/insisting she was not in fact dead.

 

[MissJames]

Thank you Miss James - I see your point(s).:blowkiss:

I am still seeing the Caylee/Anthony's issue and the ICA/Anthony issue as two separate things I guess.

It really wasn't surprising to me that the Anthony's accused other people in the initial 6 months because they were so sure ICA was innocent. To them if everyone was accusing ICA, then why wouldn't they accuse other people? That would only be fair (in their mind).

For me this was their public face - what they did in private concerning Caylee I have no idea at all, except what we know of them hoping/insisting she was not in fact dead.

And I see your's ,as well. I could be 100% wrong and I know it . It's just my opinion .I wouldn't want to be in their shoes for a million bucks.

 

[logicalgirl]

And I see your's ,as well. I could be 100% wrong and I know it . It's just my opinion .I wouldn't want to be in their shoes for a million bucks.

No me either, in the end a double tragedy and soul destroying for GA and CA no matter who or what they are.

Oh you could be quite right - I am still sitting at the table with all these pieces muttering to myself - *&%$$$# what are these people thinking and where do these pieces go.

And I'm just talking about the second layer of this case. The first layer puzzle, the one with ICA and the evidence, is sitting nicely completed over there, wrapped up nicely with a bow and tag that says - LWOP!

 

[Wagara]

I guess I have had a personal epiphany on this board. And it has been because I find myself very cautious about making judgments about what other people are feeling. It is not that I feel critical of other people who can - at all - I know that is definitely not what I feel when I read comments in various threads.

But as I bring myself to the edge of that particular cliff - I cannot make myself make the leap. And it is about me. I am one of those weird people who seems incapable of expressing public grief. I've certainly had more than my share of personal losses and tragedies, yet I am the one with the stoic face who calls the police, calls the morgue, does the cleanup, comforts other survivors. That does NOT make me the hero but it is because I have gone to a "different place" and will appear almost normal.

During a particular difficult time a friend said to me, " I sure wish I could be like you, nothing bothers you" and I almost quipped "Gee, could you call my therapist because she thinks I am suicidal."

In private times, away from "the eyes" I am inconsolable and carry grief for what feels like forever. Sorry if this seems too personal.

So while I know some see me as a Cindy supporter - that is not true. I just want to be absolutely sure before I say she is everything she appears to be. To me, words spoken or written are there forever and can't be taken back (from karma).

Hope that answers why I question some of your thoughts. It is not that I am being critical of what you are saying - it is that I want more information as to why you are so sure.

I understand this myself. I read the details and watch the tapes and the A's have made me cringe time and time again. But I still have sympathy for them. While ICA may have been in the home with Caylee, I see the A's as raising Caylee rather than ICA. I equate them to parents who've had one child kill another. They went into protective mode before they truly realized how bad this was going to get.

I think they're had to rationalize this as best they can and haven't done a good job of it at all but I can understand them to a degree. My mother would have done anything for my brothers and I. The difference is her disposition would have been different than CA's. My mother wouldn't have snapped and snarled but she would have tried to find other alternatives to the accusations. She would have been straightforward rather than underhanded but she would have handed someone else over in a heartbeat. I think most mothers would.

I think Baez has led the A's down a path they can't recover from. He gave them a script early and they stuck to it until they can now see the train coming but are stuck between the tracks of their own words. I think that's where the anger is coming from and I think they already realize ICA sold them out. I can't imagine what their home or hearts feel like.

I hope ICA gets the DP. She deserves worse. I hope the A's make peace with their life without destroying everyone in their path.

 

[Solace]

Thank you Miss James - I see your point(s).:blowkiss:

I am still seeing the Caylee/Anthony's issue and the ICA/Anthony issue as two separate things I guess.

It really wasn't surprising to me that the Anthony's accused other people in the initial 6 months because they were so sure ICA was innocent. To them if everyone was accusing ICA, then why wouldn't they accuse other people? That would only be fair (in their mind).

For me this was their public face - what they did in private concerning Caylee I have no idea at all, except what we know of them hoping/insisting she was not in fact dead.

The only problem with this as I see it is that CA knew this child was dead and Sean Krauss reports this (who has since died I believe), Mark Furhman said he told them both "you know she is dead" and George shook his head yes and Cindy stared ahead.

They are trying to save their daughter by any means possible, but she pretty much knew Caylee was dead when she made the third 911 call. She can barely speak and overnight she does a complete 360 - in the phone call with KC on July 16th, Cindy is calm and almost relaxed in her speech.

She decided it was not true and they were going to find her. The interesting thing about this is, Tracy ? (Padilla's assistant) says no one, no one was looking for the child when she was in the house and this was when KC first got out when Padilla posted bail. She said KC was on the computer and at one point she sounded like she was crying and Tracy went to see her and she found her laughing at facebook and how someone said she was "hot".

Cindy was aware of everything that KC was doing while out on bond in her house - she was desperate so she would have been on oober alert. She knew. IMO

When you have someone acting the way KC did and still does, it is obvious she does not care. Cindy may have decided, in her mind, that KC is very sick and she is going to save her.

obviously, KC is a sociopath - but that is not a disease, but a disorder and not usable as a defense at trial. Some incredible disorder - No feelings whatsoever -although, there is no doubt that she is ACTUALLY crying when she saw her mother recently in court and at the 911 hearings when her brother said I love You. But the feelings are short lived and I think they were mainly directed at herself and her loss - nothing for what Cindy and Lee were actually going through because of KC.