What Shirt Was JB Wearing When She Was Killed?

[AlGx]

Was the red turtleneck taken into evidence?

 

[otg]

Was the red turtleneck taken into evidence?

I suggest anyone new to the case bookmark the following link:
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-inventory.htm

Also, at the bottom of the following page is a list of each of the SWs (titled "Links to Search Warrants") that can be opened to see the warrant and the actual list handwritten by the officers:
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-panic911.htm

 

[archieil]

I am more interested in a list of things which were destroyed, moved to someone else.

Some parents are keeping their children things till death.

 

[archieil]

hmm..

I just noticed that she could wear:
pink turtle neck
pink Barbie nightgown
or white sth

I think she was wearing pink Barbie nightgown (pre-death) and she was killed near naked.

 

[UKGuy]

I called Columbo on this one, he said he phoned Patsy and requested One last question?

Columbo: Maam what did JonBenet wear to bed on Christmas Eve?

Patsy: Her Pink Pajama Set.

Columbo: OK Maam, so how come she was wearing a White Gap Top when discovered?

Patsy: Well because she was sleeping when we returned from the Whites, and when I was putting her to bed I could not find her Pink Pajama Bottoms, so I dressed her in Burke's longjohns and left the Gap Top on Her, it saved some time.

Columbo: You say the Pink Pajama Bottoms are missing Maam, is this how Jonbenet would have dressed herself for bed?

Patsy: Probably, she did wear them the previous night .

Columbo: Thank you Maam, that's interesting, I wonder why the Pink Bottoms should be missing but not the Pink Top?

So its likely JonBenet wore her Pink Pajama set, but was redressed in her Pink Barbie Gown as part of a bedroom staging, but this was abandonded for a wine-cellar staging that included redressing JonBenet with a tweak regarding the Gap Top.

Assuming it was Patsy, just why would she opt for Burke's longjohns and those size-12's? Yet put the Gap Top back on JonBenet, when she could have said: I just put the Pink Pajama Top on her then found Burke's longjohns?

Nope Patsy is saying the absence of the Pink Pajama Bottoms prevented her from placing the Pink Pajama Top on JonBenet, so instead of fetching another clean set of pajamas Patsy decides anything will do, including size-12's.

Something does not add up here !

.

 

[Cottonstar]

I called Columbo on this one, he said he phoned Patsy and requested One last question?

Columbo: Maam what did JonBenet wear to bed on Christmas Eve?

Patsy: Her Pink Pajama Set.

Columbo: OK Maam, so how come she was wearing a White Gap Top when discovered?

Patsy: Well because she was sleeping when we returned from the Whites, and when I was putting her to bed I could not find her Pink Pajama Bottoms, so I dressed her in Burke's longjohns and left the Gap Top on Her, it saved some time.

Columbo: You say the Pink Pajama Bottoms are missing Maam, is this how Jonbenet would have dressed herself for bed?

Patsy: Probably, she did wear them the previous night .

Columbo: Thank you Maam, that's interesting, I wonder why the Pink Bottoms should be missing but not the Pink Top?

So its likely JonBenet wore her Pink Pajama set, but was redressed in her Pink Barbie Gown as part of a bedroom staging, but this was abandonded for a wine-cellar staging that included redressing JonBenet with a tweak regarding the Gap Top.

Assuming it was Patsy, just why would she opt for Burke's longjohns and those size-12's? Yet put the Gap Top back on JonBenet, when she could have said: I just put the Pink Pajama Top on her then found Burke's longjohns?

Nope Patsy is saying the absence of the Pink Pajama Bottoms prevented her from placing the Pink Pajama Top on JonBenet, so instead of fetching another clean set of pajamas Patsy decides anything will do, including size-12's.

Something does not add up here !

.

Q: The pink elephant in the wine cellar is?

A: The pink barbie nightgown

Why do you think it’s included in the crime scene? Take a guess.


Also, if she was wearing the white silver sequin star shirt when she died than where is the urine stain on the front of it?

Proof she was changed after death. Proof of the cover-up.


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[UKGuy]

Q: The pink elephant in the wine cellar is?

A: The pink barbie nightgown

Why do you think it’s included in the crime scene? Take a guess.


Also, if she was wearing the white silver sequin star shirt when she died than where is the urine stain on the front of it?

Proof she was changed after death. Proof of the cover-up.


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Cottonstar,

Q: The pink elephant in the wine cellar is?

A: The pink barbie nightgown

Why do you think it’s included in the crime scene? Take a guess.

Could be one of many reasons why its included, e.g. staging, forensic disposal, last minute mistake?

It definitely did not arrive due to static cling, since it is bloodstained ! Not discounting BR's touch dna too.

It's not quite the pink elephant you suggest since finding JonBenet at the same location reduces its relevance.

1. Is it staging : unlikely since it is inconsistent with the R's version of events.

2. Is it forensic disposal : possibly but not the hand of the same person who removed the size-6 underwear and her pink pajama bottoms.

3. Is it a last minute mistake : Probably especially when you consider only the stager(s) of the wine-cellar knew of its existence, otherwise why did the pink barbie nightgown not exit via the same route as the pink pajama bottoms, size-6 underwear and the remaining size-12 underwear, simples?

Also, if she was wearing the white silver sequin star shirt when she died than where is the urine stain on the front of it?

Proof she was changed after death. Proof of the cover-up.

Depends on the length of the Gap Top, no urine stain is not conclusive, its only circumstantial.

I agree she was changed, as I suggested, she was changed from some prior staging, most likely a staged bedroom crime-scene, where she wore the pink barbie nightgown?

For those who are guided by aspects of undoing in the JonBenet case might consider the disposal of the pink barbie nightgown and JonBenet being redressed in the Burke's longjohns suggests the desire to remove any vaginal intrusion from public view in an attempt to normalize the wine-cellar crime-scene, as per an abduction?

JonBenet 101:

1. Someone assaulted JonBenet.

2. Someone whacked JonBenet on the head.

3. Someone asphyxiated JonBenet.

4. Someone staged JonBenet in her bedroom.

5. Someone staged JonBenet in the wine-cellar.


Someone in 1, 2 and 3 can be different from the someone in 4 and 5 and those in the latter need not be one and the same person.

This allows for JDI with Patsy covering, similarly for BDI.

Its difficult to use the same assumptions to arrive at PDI, as the staging conflicts with the forensic evidence, i.e. lack of staging consistency.

So if you do not think BR was mature enough to be involved in a sexual homicide, then it looks suspiciously like JDI, particularly given JR's recent actions regarding his story to Dr Phil regarding the flashlight and putting BR in front of the camera?

 

[kaykay543]

The turtle neck shirt was not wet. In another thread (sorry I can’t remember which one) an interview (I believe with a Ramsey attorney) with Steve Thomas is posted. In it he finally admits that he had no proof or real knowledge that the turtle neck was wet. It was an assumption he made. I lost a little bit of respect for him after reading that.

 

[UKGuy]

The turtle neck shirt was not wet. In another thread (sorry I can’t remember which one) an interview (I believe with a Ramsey attorney) with Steve Thomas is posted. In it he finally admits that he had no proof or real knowledge that the turtle neck was wet. It was an assumption he made. I lost a little bit of respect for him after reading that.

kaykay543,
If you read Thomas' book, he makes a lot of assumptions to arrive at PDI. This officer said X, another officer said Y and one cited forensic evidence, etc, but Steve Thomas rarely offers references, so you have to trust his judgement.

I reckon he made the best of a bad job, it affected his health, he was formerly a narcotics officer drafted to investigate a homicide, go figure?

Kolar makes similar leaps of judgement in his book, all the JonBenet authors have to do it as they cannot reveal evidence not yet in the public domain.

Do you think JonBenet was wearing the Turtleneck that night, if so why?

.

 

[Cottonstar]

Kolar once stated on one of Tricia’s True Crime radio podcasts from 2013 that JonBenet came home wearing the red turtleneck sweater. His utterance was most likely a mistake, but, perhaps a slip. This particular episode has disappeared since.

Nevertheless, it’s most likely that JB was not wearing the white sequin star GAP shirt when she was killed/voided. If you look at the photos of her bloomies and leggings you can clearly see that the urine stains run up all the way to the top edges of both items. In other words, if she was on her stomach when she voided, you most likely would see the urine would have also stained the bottom of her shirt if she was wearing it at the time. There is no mention of urine on her white shirt.


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[UKGuy]

Kolar once stated on one of Tricia’s True Crime radio podcasts from 2013 that JonBenet came home wearing the red turtleneck sweater. His utterance was most likely a mistake, but, perhaps a slip. This particular episode has disappeared since.

Nevertheless, it’s most likely that JB was not wearing the white sequin star GAP shirt when she was killed/voided. If you look at the photos of her bloomies and leggings you can clearly see that the urine stains run up all the way to the top edges of both items. In other words, if she was on her stomach when she voided, you most likely would see the urine would have also stained the bottom of her shirt if she was wearing it at the time. There is no mention of urine on her white shirt.


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Cottonstar,
It looks like that. So what do you think she was wearing prior to being redressed?

What date was Kolars podcast I reckon I have four for 2013, it would be nice to check out what Kolar says?

Just like Steve Thomas, Kolar probably injects assumptions into his BDI, e.g. JonBenet was whacked in the breakfast bar and relocated to the basement, so he said in one of his podcasts.

.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,
It looks like that. So what do you think she was wearing prior to being redressed?

What date was Kolars podcast I reckon I have four for 2013, it would be nice to check out what Kolar says?

Just like Steve Thomas, Kolar probably injects assumptions into his BDI, e.g. JonBenet was whacked in the breakfast bar and relocated to the basement, so he said in one of his podcasts.

.

I’m not exactly sure which one it was. I looked for it last week and it has vanished. Looks like a couple of more episodes that he appeared in, have also disappeared.

I believe she was wearing the pink barbie nightgown, for reasons I can go into later.



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[UKGuy]

I’m not exactly sure which one it was. I looked for it last week and it has vanished. Looks like a couple of more episodes that he appeared in, have also disappeared.

I believe she was wearing the pink barbie nightgown, for reasons I can go into later.



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Cottonstar,
Missing podcasts, mmm, wonder if its fallout from the CBS case?

These are the Kolar podcasts:

20130205-TrueCrimeRadio-JonBenet-Special-Kolar
20130805-TrueCrimeRadio-James-Kolar
20131028-TrueCrimeRadio-The-Grand-Jury
20131230-TrueCrimeRadio-James-Kolar

Could be I've copied one or two hence the different dates, yet the file sizes differ.

.

 

[icedtea4me]

Kolar once stated on one of Tricia’s True Crime radio podcasts from 2013 that JonBenet came home wearing the red turtleneck sweater. His utterance was most likely a mistake, but, perhaps a slip. This particular episode has disappeared since.

Nevertheless, it’s most likely that JB was not wearing the white sequin star GAP shirt when she was killed/voided. If you look at the photos of her bloomies and leggings you can clearly see that the urine stains run up all the way to the top edges of both items. In other words, if she was on her stomach when she voided, you most likely would see the urine would have also stained the bottom of her shirt if she was wearing it at the time. There is no mention of urine on her white shirt.


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Anything about the urine stain having been tested on various areas? The reason why I ask is because part of the urine stain may have already been on them because it wasn't able to be laundered out.

 

[kaykay543]

kaykay543,
If you read Thomas' book, he makes a lot of assumptions to arrive at PDI. This officer said X, another officer said Y and one cited forensic evidence, etc, but Steve Thomas rarely offers references, so you have to trust his judgement.

I reckon he made the best of a bad job, it affected his health, he was formerly a narcotics officer drafted to investigate a homicide, go figure?

Kolar makes similar leaps of judgement in his book, all the JonBenet authors have to do it as they cannot reveal evidence not yet in the public domain.

Do you think JonBenet was wearing the Turtleneck that night, if so why?

.

I agree it greatly affected his life and health. I know he was trying to do the right thing. But as a detective he had to know that you can't just state things as a fact when they are assumptions. Especially in such a notorious case. I think he wanted it to be wet to prove his bed wetting theory.

I do believe she was wearing the red turtle neck when she went to bed or got ready for bed. Patsy said she often dressed them the night before a big trip so they could just get up and leave in the morning (though I always think how uncomfortable it would be to sleep in a turtle neck!) So I think Patsy's first statement that she put it on her was the truth. I think she changed her statement later as it made it look like she was the one who re dressed Jonbenet. And it would also go against her statement that Jonbenet never woke up after the car trip. So many lies.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree it greatly affected his life and health. I know he was trying to do the right thing. But as a detective he had to know that you can't just state things as a fact when they are assumptions. Especially in such a notorious case. I think he wanted it to be wet to prove his bed wetting theory.

I do believe she was wearing the red turtle neck when she went to bed or got ready for bed. Patsy said she often dressed them the night before a big trip so they could just get up and leave in the morning (though I always think how uncomfortable it would be to sleep in a turtle neck!) So I think Patsy's first statement that she put it on her was the truth. I think she changed her statement later as it made it look like she was the one who re dressed Jonbenet. And it would also go against her statement that Jonbenet never woke up after the car trip. So many lies.

kaykay543,

I think he wanted it to be wet to prove his bed wetting theory.

Yes, it helped his PDI look more credible, from that period the R's threatened Steve Thomas with litigation against the book's publication, apparently they were not happy with some of the content, so he revised parts of book.

Where the turtleneck fits in is difficult to work out, but if JonBenet is not going to wear it early that evening why going to bed?

Patsy did redress JonBenet, she says she removed her black velvet pants and dressed her in Burke's longjohns, leaving her white top on, so not to awaken her, she also says she never noticed if JonBenet was wearing underwear!

She could have been wearing the turtleneck and Burke's longjohns, but removing the turtleneck yet leaving the longjohns does not hide that someone redressed JonBenet. So why bother?

.

 

[kaykay543]

kaykay543,

She could have been wearing the turtleneck and Burke's longjohns, but removing the turtleneck yet leaving the longjohns does not hide that someone redressed JonBenet. So why bother?


.

Here is my theory

PR has said that she would dress the kids in clothes for the next day (when she put them to bed) when they were going on trips. This way they could just get up and leave.

She changed JBR into the red turtle neck and pink pajama bottoms (the ones no one can find) And did her hair for the next day. (this is why her hair is different from the dinner) Then after whatever altercation occurred; she had to redress her again and used the white top and long johns. I think this is why she accidentally said she put her to bed in the red shirt. And then had to change her story. I think in her drug/stressed induced mind she forget to lie about the red shirt. So like ST I do think something happened in the bathroom. I cannot think of any other reason why PR said she put her to bed in the red shirt.

I do think Patsy was at her limit that night. Christmas can be very stressful. They had done a ton of running around the past few days and she had to finish getting ready for a big trip. I suspect JR was not helpful with anything.

 

[Cottonstar]

Here is my theory

PR has said that she would dress the kids in clothes for the next day (when she put them to bed) when they were going on trips. This way they could just get up and leave.

She changed JBR into the red turtle neck and pink pajama bottoms (the ones no one can find) And did her hair for the next day. (this is why her hair is different from the dinner) Then after whatever altercation occurred; she had to redress her again and used the white top and long johns. I think this is why she accidentally said she put her to bed in the red shirt. And then had to change her story. I think in her drug/stressed induced mind she forget to lie about the red shirt. So like ST I do think something happened in the bathroom. I cannot think of any other reason why PR said she put her to bed in the red shirt.

I do think Patsy was at her limit that night. Christmas can be very stressful. They had done a ton of running around the past few days and she had to finish getting ready for a big trip. I suspect JR was not helpful with anything.

There is one glaring reason why she would lie about her wearing the red turtleneck. It may be for the same reason she decided to wear her same clothes from the night before.


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[Tortoise]

Here is my theory

PR has said that she would dress the kids in clothes for the next day (when she put them to bed) when they were going on trips. This way they could just get up and leave.

RSBM

Is this a fact? Because I've seen it said before but I don't remember seeing it in any of her interviews.

 

[kaykay543]

Is this a fact? Because I've seen it said before but I don't remember seeing it in any of her interviews.

Yes it was in one of the detective interviews with PR. Sorry I don't remember which one as there are so many. As I parent I did this too when my kids were little. But I will say I would never do it with a turtle neck as to me that would be very uncomfortable to sleep in.