What's eating you alive re this case?

[OliviaG1996]

Not found? Oh, they disposed of it! As well they disposed of grandma Nedra`s puple galoshes. That left the high tech print in the basement. Oh, you say I do not bring the fact to my opinion. Wait a minute, LE was asking Patsy if she had pink/purple gloves. It was purple galoshes!

I said you don't bring facts to your opinion? That's news to me. I sense you are getting a little sarcastic in your posts when I'm trying to have a decent discussion, so I guess I'll stop here.

 

[tovarisch]

I said you don't bring facts to your opinion? That's news to me. I sense you are getting a little sarcastic in your posts when I'm trying to have a decent discussion, so I guess I'll stop here.

It was humor , of cause bc red turtleneck as a weapon and purple galoshes as a high tech print is the same, when there is no basis behind , I asked you for the prove of turtleneck-weapon, you said it was in the bathroom. Is it enough? Agree to stop, there is nothing to discuss.

 

[andreww]

Was the red turtleneck found on the bathroom floor the top that Patsy had wanted her to wear to the White's?


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[OliviaG1996]

Was the red turtleneck found on the bathroom floor the top that Patsy had wanted her to wear to the White's?


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This is from Patsy's BPD Interview - April 30, 1997 (BBM):

TT: What color of top did she wear to bed that night? What color top was she wearing actually to the White’s house like?
PR: Well she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little, little riff over that, cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this red sweater with her black velvet pants, cause I was wearing black velvet pants and it was Christmas and all that.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And she didn’t want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap outfit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this, kind of a . . .
TT: Kind of a crew neck?
PR: . . .crew neck and it had a little, little rhinestone, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it.
TT: Okay.
PR: So I just left that on her.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't know if this is the best place to post this, but since I can not post a new thread (maybe my post count is not high enough?), I'm going to stick it in this one.

I keep circling back to the strangulation. I know that some people think that the garrotte is evidence of staging, but why is it needed at all? It seems to unneeded.

I assume that it was a quick way to explain her death, but why not just leave the body in the WC? That seems to be just as easy. "Oh No! JB must have come down here playing a game/to look for the unopened presents/as a joke/sleepwalking/who knows why 6 year olds do what they do and been trapped! What if our baby froze to death in our own basement! What if she panicked and had a heart attack!"

What would that have changed? JR could have still snatched her up and carried her upstairs, disturbing evidence. All LE would have had then was a dead little girl, who could have died of anything, including natural causes. By strangling her and leaving the ugly rope on her neck, they instantly knew that they had a murder. True, the head injury would have still been found at autopsy, even without the strangulation, but that wouldn't happen for hours, giving both sides time to figure out what to do.

I just don't get why she was strangled at all. They had to have known she was dying and would be gone before the police were ever called, or even thought that she was already dead. Why not just wrap her little body in that blanket and leave it in the WC? Was the act of strangulation itself important?

For the record, I do think that Pansy hit her in an act of rage, and she and JR staged the scene together. I go back and forth about whether the previous vaginal trauma was from an outside person (not an intruder that night) or innocent play with her brother.

For my money, Inthemadhouse, the garrote was not just to give an obvious means of death, but to make it obvious WHAT KIND of killer did it.

 

[BBB167893]

Not necessarily. Who says you can't grab someone by the collar and not leave a scratch on the shirt/clothing in question? Certainly it can leave the area it was grabbed a little wrinkly, and who's to say the article of clothing in question wasn't? I haven't heard anything stating the Barbie nightgown/red turtleneck sweater was left in pristine condition, have you?



I found Kolar's reasoning behind why the cord was used in the cover-up perfect because if JR and PR found JBR unconscious with marks indicating strangulation on her neck, there's no way they could tell police that this was an accident. What better way to show police that this crime wasn't an accident? Cover-up what their other child (in my opinion) had done and make it look like an intruder had done everything.



A yellow raincoat was not found balled up on JBR's bathroom floor. It wasn't next to her body in the wine cellar, either.

You didn't take the bait, OliviaG1996.

 

[tovarisch]

For my money, Inthemadhouse, the garrote was not just to give an obvious means of death, but to make it obvious WHAT KIND of killer did it.

Exactly! I`m seeing the same thing, only from different prism. WHAT KIND and don`t underestimate us, John.

 

[tovarisch]

You didn't take the bait, OliviaG1996.

Right. She stopped on time. BC next I would be pulling out Dr Spitz`s "button" theory.

 

[OliviaG1996]

Right. She stopped on time. BC next I would be pulling out Dr Spitz`s "button" theory.

I'm back. What about his "button theory"?

 

[tovarisch]

I'm back. What about his "button theory"?

Our respectable Dr. Spitz claimed that JB`s abrasion on her face ( the ugly one, some call it the stun-gun ) was cause by the button. How about it? Great or not? It`s in addition to the turtlrneck, we all know that red t/neck did not have a buttons.

 

[OliviaG1996]

Our respectable Dr. Spitz claimed that JB`s abrasion on her face ( the ugly one, some call it the stun-gun ) was cause by the button. How about it? Great or not? It`s in addition to the turtlrneck, we all know that red t/neck did not have a buttons.

Nowhere does Dr. Spitz claim that the mark on her face was caused by a button on the shirt JBR was wearing during the initial attack:

<SNIPPED>
Erin Moriarty: "How sure are you that it's not a stun gun?"
Dr. Werner Spitz: "Well I'm a hundred percent sure because stun gun injuries don't look that way."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Dr. Werner Spitz, a nationally known pathologist who has worked on major cases including the assassination of J.F. Kennedy."
Dr. Werner Spitz: "Are you telling me that this looks to you like the other one, the one that JonBenet has? They don't look like that to me at all. A stun gun injury is an electrical burn, it's a burn essentially. And these don't look like burns."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Instead, Spitz believes the large dark mark on JonBenet's face was left by a snap on a piece of clothing"
Dr. Werner Spitz: "You know like the snaps they have on blue jeans for instance. If you look at this one below the ear, this thing here. If you look at it closely with a magnify glass you will see within this brownish mark is a boat shaped structure which is missing with any of the other injuries."
48 Hours Investigates - Searching for a Killer, October 4, 2002

 

[tovarisch]

Nowhere does Dr. Spitz claim that the mark on her face was caused by a button on the shirt JBR was wearing during the initial attack:

Yes, I`ve said in addition to the original shirt-weapon.

He even saw boat shaped imprint in the middle of imprint, which I consider an ear of a button ( I do not how to name it correctly where you put thread through),like metal buttons have this ear.
It means button was applied with it`s back side to her face. How about it? Do you find it believable?

 

[OliviaG1996]

Yes, I`ve said in addition to the original shirt-weapon.

He even saw boat shaped imprint in the middle of imprint, which I consider an ear of a button ( I do not how to name it correctly where you put thread through),like metal buttons have this ear.
It means button was applied with it`s back side to her face. How about it? Do you find it believable?

By a "snap" button, I believe he meant one of these kinds of buttons:

​

Not these kinds, which you may have been thinking of:

​

And, yes, I do find it believable.

 

[tovarisch]

By a "snap" button, I believe he meant one of these kinds of buttons:

View attachment 76832​

Not these kinds, which you may have been thinking of:

View attachment 76833​

And, yes, I do find it believable.

Oh, that was great, thank you. I think it`s on the top left on the first picture, metal with an ear.
OK, somebody took button (out of the pocket?)
and applied with it`s back side to her face. With the pressure.
That`s what you think?
And I`m serious now, I`m trying to come to the reasonable scenario. I`m not sarcastic to let you know.

 

[OliviaG1996]

Oh, that was great, thank you. I think it`s on the top left on the first picture, metal with an ear.
OK, somebody took button (out of the pocket?)
and applied with it`s back side to her face. With the pressure.
That`s what you think?
And I`m serious now, I`m trying to come to the reasonable scenario. I`m not sarcastic to let you know.

No, I think it's possible JBR fell onto a sweater (whose, I'm not sure) when she was struck on the head and her face landed on the button. The Ramseys were notorious for leaving clothes on the floor, so this is not a stretch of the imagination. Somehow, whether she fell on it or not, JBR's face came into contact with the sweater (if the mark on her face was in fact from the button). Another possibility I've thought of for the origin of the mark was that she fell on a Lego toy, but I've been told the dimensions of Legos don't add up to the dimension of the mark on her face.

 

[tovarisch]

No, I think it's possible JBR fell onto a sweater (whose, I'm not sure) when she was struck on the head and her face landed on the button. The Ramseys were notorious for leaving clothes on the floor, so this is not a stretch of the imagination. Somehow, whether she fell on it or not, JBR's face came into contact with the sweater (if the mark on her face was in fact from the button). Another possibility I've thought of for the origin of the mark was that she fell on a Lego toy, but I've been told the dimensions of Legos don't add up to the dimension of the mark on her face.

Lets stay in the DR`s theory limits, for now. Let take it seriously. DR was confident he saw a button imprint. Why Dr was confident. Because he saw a boat shaped structure inside the abrasion which consistent with the "ear" of a button. Ear is on the back side of a button. If button is sown to the sweater it`s back side would be sown to the sweater. If a button sown to the sweater, jeans... you cannot to come into contact with backside of the button. That`s my understanding. What you can imagine as boat shaped structure in the very middle of a round object that made DR say It`s a button!?

 

[OliviaG1996]

Lets stay in the DR`s theory limits, for now. Let take it seriously. DR was confident he saw a button imprint. Why Dr was confident. Because he saw a boat shaped structure inside the abrasion which consistent with the "ear" of a button. Ear is on the back side of a button. If button is sown to the sweater it`s back side would be sown to the sweater. If a button sown to the sweater, jeans... you cannot to come into contact with backside of the button. That`s my understanding. What you can imagine as boat shaped structure in the very middle of a round object that made DR say It`s a button!?

I haven't read Dr. Spitz refer to the area of the "boat shaped structure" as being the "ear", or backside, area of the button. The "boat shaped structure", or design, is not on the backside of a button, it's in the front, otherwise we wouldn't be able to see it unless the clothing was inside-out.

 

[tovarisch]

I haven't read Dr. Spitz refer to the area of the "boat shaped structure" as being the "ear", or backside, area of the button. The "boat shaped structure", or design, is not on the backside of a button, it's in the front, otherwise we wouldn't be able to see it unless the clothing was inside-out.

I do not know who is right out of two of us, but I would think it was button with boat shaped design it would have been big deal for LE. Button with designed imprinted on her cheek? And nobody`s exited about it? I don`t think so. I think what DR meant-- average plain button with the recognizable structure of an "ear".

Design or not, button or not ,how it was applied unknown. But rather violently. Dr said button and went home. And we are debating his button all evening long. And nothing we got.
It`s becoming late in my village. It was nice talking to you. Till next time, bye.

 

[CorallaroC]

This is from Patsy's BPD Interview - April 30, 1997 (BBM):

TT: What color of top did she wear to bed that night? What color top was she wearing actually to the White’s house like?
PR: Well she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little, little riff over that, cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this red sweater with her black velvet pants, cause I was wearing black velvet pants and it was Christmas and all that.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And she didn’t want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap outfit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this, kind of a . . .
TT: Kind of a crew neck?
PR: . . .crew neck and it had a little, little rhinestone, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it.
TT: Okay.
PR: So I just left that on her.

RedBBM

Wanted to comment on Olivia's post which contains a portion of the PR/BPD 4/97 interview. Note the simple question asked: "What color of top did she wear to bed that night?"

After a long diversion, PR finally admits to it being a white top, but feels the need to describe the NECKLINE. Wonder why she would have said that? I went back to the original transcript of the interview just to make sure there had not been any previous questions asked about necklines, or possible strangulation with clothing etc. So this is another oddity IMO.

 

[mochii]

Hi guys, I'm sorry to butt into the conversation here. But I have been wondering if the button had been from the alleged boot? This is an example image of a hi-tec boot. Looks very standard, imo.



I've attached an image, if you look toward the top you can see two buttons at the top of the shoe. Below is a linked image of the mysterious mark on JB's face ***(autopsy photo, warning!)***

the mark on JB's face.

They are similar in shape and size. Purely speculation, but it could be possible that the killer used their legs/feet as leverage or to hold her down, during the actual murder. Thus, causing the abrasion.