What's eating you alive re this case?

[BBB167893]

Hello everyone,

I've been watching this forum for quite some time. This case has intrigued me so much that I even read the book by Steve Thomas, which is something for which I normally don't have time to do. This is one of my few posts so I am not sure if I'm posting it in the correct thread or whether I shouldn't have created a separate thread for it.
Anyway, I would like to ask you a very hypothetical question about the case. It's just a hypothetical conjecture about which I have been wondering. If you were able to travel back in time and return back to your original timeline without altering it by your actions during the back-in-time journey, do you think you would be able to solve this case? If so, how? Let's suppose you could take anything with you for the journey back in time and bring anything with you when coming back to your original timeline. However, you can't tell anyone about your possibility of travelling back in time! What evidence would you bring with you in order to be able to take this case to court and finally solve it once and for all?

Thank you in advance for your reactions to my question. Looking forward to them!

Two things: a camera and a sledgehammer. A camera to catch the killer in the act; a sledgehammer to dispense a little hard justice.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

What bothers me most is that this case was so bungled that I feel like they destroyed all the evidence that would solve it. I keep hoping they will go back again and again for more dna as the technology gets better. I know the killer will be found some day. It makes me sad they weren't found before Patsy died.

 

[andreww]

What bothers me most is that this case was so bungled that I feel like they destroyed all the evidence that would solve it. I keep hoping they will go back again and again for more dna as the technology gets better. I know the killer will be found some day. It makes me sad they weren't found before Patsy died.

Exactly what evidence was destroyed? I agree, Boulder police weren't at the top of their game, but I don't think any substantial evidence was destroyed. It may have been slightly compromised but at the end of the day, all the evidence was still there. It was actually the Ramsey's that spread the word of police incompetence, and the public bought in to it because people naturally like to complain about cops. The only thing the cops didn't do that actually had an effect on the case was they didn't immediately separate and interrogate the parents, but that was more because of Alex Hunter than anything.




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[andreww]

Two things: a camera and a sledgehammer. A camera to catch the killer in the act; a sledgehammer to dispense a little hard justice.

Obviously you are unfamiliar with the laws of time travel Dave. Your "justice" certainly would have altered the space-time continuum.


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[Ellie9]

Exactly what evidence was destroyed? I agree, Boulder police weren't at the top of their game, but I don't think any substantial evidence was destroyed. It may have been slightly compromised but at the end of the day, all the evidence was still there. It was actually the Ramsey's that spread the word of police incompetence, and the public bought in to it because people naturally like to complain about cops. The only thing the cops didn't do that actually had an effect on the case was they didn't immediately separate and interrogate the parents, but that was more because of Alex Hunter than anything.




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I agree lately with this, but I feel like the child's body was compromised as a place for good evidence. She was moved too much, John removed the tape, they can't have a real picture of how she was found because if John was involved with staging or the crime he easily could have lied about how he found her. Then of course fiber evidence and DNA evidence is messed up with her body and clothing because they put some other family blanket on her from the living room I think.


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[andreww]

I agree lately with this, but I feel like the child's body was compromised as a place for good evidence. She was moved too much, John removed the tape, they can't have a real picture of how she was found because if John was involved with staging or the crime he easily could have lied about how he found her. Then of course fiber evidence and DNA evidence is messed up with her body and clothing because they put some other family blanket on her from the living room I think.


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She was moved too much, John removed the tape, they can't have a real picture of how she was found

Yes John moved her, but lets consider this; wherever he found here, it was likely not the original murder scene anyway. Jonbenet had in all likelihood been moved several times following the head blow. The crime scene was already majorly compromised by all the staging that had gone on before LE's arrival.

Then of course fiber evidence

The fibre evidence was intact. Patsy's fibres were on the duct tape that never left the basement. John's fibres from the sweater he wore the previous night were found on the body as well. Moving the body did not disturb any of this. If John had not removed the duct tape, then some fibre evidence from Patsy would have been nullified, but thankfully that didn't happen.

and DNA evidence is messed up

This is not a DNA case. The likely suspect are all extremely close to the victim, so their DNA is not overly significant. But as far as we know, no evidence was destroyed by moving the body.

All that said, the only way that I can say the cops really screwed up was by not finding that body. If they had found her early that morning a time of death would have been far more accurate and probably more damning for the Ramsey's. I also believe that John and Patsy would have been takin directly for interviews if she had been found. They probably would have hidden behind attorneys anyway, but you just never know.

 

[Ellie9]

Yes John moved her, but lets consider this; wherever he found here, it was likely not the original murder scene anyway. Jonbenet had in all likelihood been moved several times following the head blow. The crime scene was already majorly compromised by all the staging that had gone on before LE's arrival.



The fibre evidence was intact. Patsy's fibres were on the duct tape that never left the basement. John's fibres from the sweater he wore the previous night were found on the body as well. Moving the body did not disturb any of this. If John had not removed the duct tape, then some fibre evidence from Patsy would have been nullified, but thankfully that didn't happen.



This is not a DNA case. The likely suspect are all extremely close to the victim, so their DNA is not overly significant. But as far as we know, no evidence was destroyed by moving the body.

All that said, the only way that I can say the cops really screwed up was by not finding that body. If they had found her early that morning a time of death would have been far more accurate and probably more damning for the Ramsey's. I also believe that John and Patsy would have been takin directly for interviews if she had been found. They probably would have hidden behind attorneys anyway, but you just never know.

Good points on everything. I just wanted to explain the DNA. The reason it bothers me is because the odd DNA likely from that extra blanket exonerated them. Without all that maybe they could have gone to trial.

I agree that everything I said basically points to John finding the body late and not the cops themselves. I guess this one thing I find really major, but you're right in that there is still plenty of evidence against them on the body even though it wss compromised in other ways.


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[ScarlettScarpetta]

Exactly what evidence was destroyed? I agree, Boulder police weren't at the top of their game, but I don't think any substantial evidence was destroyed. It may have been slightly compromised but at the end of the day, all the evidence was still there. It was actually the Ramsey's that spread the word of police incompetence, and the public bought in to it because people naturally like to complain about cops. The only thing the cops didn't do that actually had an effect on the case was they didn't immediately separate and interrogate the parents, but that was more because of Alex Hunter than anything.




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The police were incompetent.. The Ramseys did not have to spread any word. There was not proper procedure followed from the beginning. There was no control of the Kidnapping scene nor the murder scene. The Police bungled this and who knows what else was destroyed by the trampling and in and out of people.
I don't naturally complain about cops. I think their job is the toughest in the world and there are many many great cops and investigators.. But in this case.. It is ridiculous the amount of incompetency in this case.

I know that the rabbit hole in his case is to just keep dogging the people that people like to hate. But that does not prove the case. All it does even if you believe it is the R's is prove how badly this case was bungled.

I think in the end that DNA will show the truth. I hope we don't have to wait too much longer.

All the crazy fantasy theories that have all kinds of made up details that read like science fiction aren't helpful. They are just juvenile.

This case matters to me and I want justice for JBR. I think most people just want to see an R hang.

 

[andreww]

The police were incompetent.. The Ramseys did not have to spread any word. There was not proper procedure followed from the beginning. There was no control of the Kidnapping scene nor the murder scene. The Police bungled this and who knows what else was destroyed by the trampling and in and out of people.
I don't naturally complain about cops. I think their job is the toughest in the world and there are many many great cops and investigators.. But in this case.. It is ridiculous the amount of incompetency in this case.

I know that the rabbit hole in his case is to just keep dogging the people that people like to hate. But that does not prove the case. All it does even if you believe it is the R's is prove how badly this case was bungled.

I think in the end that DNA will show the truth. I hope we don't have to wait too much longer.

All the crazy fantasy theories that have all kinds of made up details that read like science fiction aren't helpful. They are just juvenile.

This case matters to me and I want justice for JBR. I think most people just want to see an R hang.

Dave, I'm not denying incompetence on behalf of BPD, that is obvious. But, what evidence was actually destroyed? I'm trying to think of one thing where we've said "ah jeez, we can't use that anymore", and I can't. Of course the Ramsey's tried to use their inept behaviour to their advantage, suggesting LE had actually left the flashlight and boot print, but that really didn't pan out either.

People forget that this was reported as a kidnapping and that required a lot of cops in the house. It needed to be searched, wire taps needed to be set up, John needed to be briefed, etc. Numerous cops needed to be in the house. I think it is unfair to believe that the house should have been treated as a murder scene from the get go.

But again, my main point, was any evidence actually lost?


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[DeeDee249]

Dave, I'm not denying incompetence on behalf of BPD, that is obvious. But, what evidence was actually destroyed? I'm trying to think of one thing where we've said "ah jeez, we can't use that anymore", and I can't. Of course the Ramsey's tried to use their inept behaviour to their advantage, suggesting LE had actually left the flashlight and boot print, but that really didn't pan out either.

People forget that this was reported as a kidnapping and that required a lot of cops in the house. It needed to be searched, wire taps needed to be set up, John needed to be briefed, etc. Numerous cops needed to be in the house. I think it is unfair to believe that the house should have been treated as a murder scene from the get go.

But again, my main point, was any evidence actually lost?


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In a case like this, the whole house is "evidence". Simply because they did NOT know exactly where the crime occurred (which room certainly- but at that early stage it was still considered a kidnapping. Only the FBI, there early that morning, saw it for what it was- a crime committed in the home likely by people in the home. They told police "You're going to be finding her body". This was after they reviewed the ransom note as well as observing the parents. This wasn't their first rodeo. They knew the signs. Why do you think they were sent away? The "word" came down to "treat these people (the Rs) like victims and not like suspects. The FBI thought they were suspects. So they had to go. After it was found to actually BE a body found in the home, the FBI CASKU unit was no longer applicable, so local police had to take over. SO the "evidence lost' IMO was that of a pristine crime scene- and an untouched body. Several people touched that body, not only JR or the stagers. FW touched the tape. And let's not forget Det Arndt allowed that blanket to be thrown over her, as well as picking her up and moving the body herself -moving her from the foyer where JR put her, to the living room rug (under the Christmas Tree!) violating every police protocol. Had the crime scene been untouched, and the body allowed to remain in situ in the basement, we'd know how she was originally placed, whether her legs or wrists were bound (although forensics tells us they were not) and JR would not have had the opportunity to handle her, nor would Patsy have been allowed to lie on top of her, muddying the waters as far as the fibers found on her.

 

[andreww]

In a case like this, the whole house is "evidence". Simply because they did NOT know exactly where the crime occurred (which room certainly- but at that early stage it was still considered a kidnapping. Only the FBI, there early that morning, saw it for what it was- a crime committed in the home likely by people in the home. They told police "You're going to be finding her body". This was after they reviewed the ransom note as well as observing the parents. This wasn't their first rodeo. They knew the signs. Why do you think they were sent away? The "word" came down to "treat these people (the Rs) like victims and not like suspects. The FBI thought they were suspects. So they had to go. After it was found to actually BE a body found in the home, the FBI CASKU unit was no longer applicable, so local police had to take over. SO the "evidence lost' IMO was that of a pristine crime scene- and an untouched body. Several people touched that body, not only JR or the stagers. FW touched the tape. And let's not forget Det Arndt allowed that blanket to be thrown over her, as well as picking her up and moving the body herself -moving her from the foyer where JR put her, to the living room rug (under the Christmas Tree!) violating every police protocol. Had the crime scene been untouched, and the body allowed to remain in situ in the basement, we'd know how she was originally placed, whether her legs or wrists were bound (although forensics tells us they were not) and JR would not have had the opportunity to handle her, nor would Patsy have been allowed to lie on top of her, muddying the waters as far as the fibers found on her.

Thanks for your post, I appreciate you efforts. However you still fail to point out a single piece of evidence that is gone and cannot be used. The duct tape for instance. Yes Fleet touched it, and maybe his DNA is on it, but unless you are considering Fleet as a suspect, nothing has been lost.

And yes the FBI suspected things wouldn't end well, but what was BPD supposed to do at that point, empty the house?

Again, BPD did screw some things up, but I just don't think the blame for this case should fall square on their shoulders. I feel that even if BPD had done everything by the book we'd still be sitting where we are today.


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[THE BUNK]

What bothers me most is that this case was so bungled that I feel like they destroyed all the evidence that would solve it. I keep hoping they will go back again and again for more dna as the technology gets better. I know the killer will be found some day. It makes me sad they weren't found before Patsy died.

1. If the case was bungled by the police that more lends to evidence proving the Ramseys guilt being destroyed or misplaced. The evidence allegedly proving the Ramseys innocence (the ransom note, the DNA) have interestingly not been destroyed by the "bungling police".

2. The two biggest pieces of evidence that may have been lost in this case are a. The bludgeon weapon b. the actual crime scene. Both of those would most likely be covered up by the Ramseys and not an intruder.

 

[THE BUNK]

What eats me about this case is the thing that eats most detectives about murder cases,

There is more than one person out there that has critical evidence about this case, but is reluctant to give it. They're withholding info out of loyalty, fear, apathy and probably greed.

To me that is the worst thing about this case. This case can be solved if someone would be willing to finally talk!

 

[Ellie9]

What eats me about this case is the thing that eats most detectives about murder cases,

There is more than one person out there that has critical evidence about this case, but is reluctant to give it. They're withholding info out of loyalty, fear, apathy and probably greed.

To me that is the worst thing about this case. This case can be solved if someone would be willing to finally talk!

I completely agree. There are probably two people alive who know the truth. At LEAST one of the two in most plausible theories. And they'll probably never speak a word about it.

 

[elannia]

What eats me about this case is the thing that eats most detectives about murder cases,

There is more than one person out there that has critical evidence about this case, but is reluctant to give it. They're withholding info out of loyalty, fear, apathy and probably greed.

To me that is the worst thing about this case. This case can be solved if someone would be willing to finally talk!

ITA with you, after the GJ indictments were released in 2013 alot of people knew what the indictment was when Alex Hunter read the documents and said no charges would be filed. So all these people knew and kept it to themselves for many years. I wish FW would come out and tell his story, what is he waiting on?, possibly being sued I suppose

 

[celticthyme]

What continues to bother me is that there were 3 possible killers in that house when Jon Benet was killed. One is dead, the other 2 are still out there. I do believe in Divine justice however.

 

[Justice4JB]

I want to know what really happened!
Which came first: the head blow or the strangulation?

And if it was a ramsey then why?
why did they do it?
What was their motive to kill her?

 

[BBB167893]

Exactly what evidence was destroyed? I agree, Boulder police weren't at the top of their game, but I don't think any substantial evidence was destroyed. It may have been slightly compromised but at the end of the day, all the evidence was still there. It was actually the Ramsey's that spread the word of police incompetence, and the public bought in to it because people naturally like to complain about cops. The only thing the cops didn't do that actually had an effect on the case was they didn't immediately separate and interrogate the parents, but that was more because of Alex Hunter than anything.




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Agreed. What Scarlett fails to appreciate is that the vast majority of cases like this are not solved through forensic evidence, but through confessions.

 

[BBB167893]

Obviously you are unfamiliar with the laws of time travel Dave. Your "justice" certainly would have altered the space-time continuum.


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This is heavy, Doc. I'm not thinking Fourth-Dimensionally.

 

[BBB167893]

All the crazy fantasy theories that have all kinds of made up details that read like science fiction aren't helpful. They are just juvenile.

My sentiments EXACTLY!