What's eating you alive re this case?

[singularity]

Yeah Patsy was very intelligent. I laugh anytime I see a post calling her dumb. The RN is a work of art....even if by accident. It's a paradox within the overall paradoxical nature of the crime. Reintarnation, since you are very interested in the RN you should check out the 'Ransom Note Analysis' thread.

 

[Tadpole12]

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682473/Fiber Evidence

The brown fibers
Brown Cotton Fibers

• "Brown cotton fibers on JonBenet's body, the paintbrush, the duct tape and on the ligature were not sourced and do not match anything in the Ramsey home. (SMF P 181; PSMF P 181.) (Carnes 2003:20).
• Rocky Mountain News characterized these fibers as "light brown" and further reports that [Detective Lou] "Smit wonders if the killer wore gloves."

• Fibers from American Girl Doll? Internet poster Jahazafat claims she used to work for Pleasant Company, which sells American Girl dolls. Jahazafat believes that the dark blue and tan fibers may have come from a "Molly" version of that doll since it had a skirt that sheds dark blue wool fibers and a tan cotton torso. Nedra purchased such a Molly doll in September 1996 and may have given it to JonBenet at Thanksgiving.

**************************************************************************************************
Why on some items? not others?
does it delineate the staging? Stagers?

 

[BBB167893]

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682473/Fiber Evidence

The brown fibers
Brown Cotton Fibers

• "Brown cotton fibers on JonBenet's body, the paintbrush, the duct tape and on the ligature were not sourced and do not match anything in the Ramsey home. (SMF P 181; PSMF P 181.) (Carnes 2003:20).
• Rocky Mountain News characterized these fibers as "light brown" and further reports that [Detective Lou] "Smit wonders if the killer wore gloves."

• Fibers from American Girl Doll? Internet poster Jahazafat claims she used to work for Pleasant Company, which sells American Girl dolls. Jahazafat believes that the dark blue and tan fibers may have come from a "Molly" version of that doll since it had a skirt that sheds dark blue wool fibers and a tan cotton torso. Nedra purchased such a Molly doll in September 1996 and may have given it to JonBenet at Thanksgiving.

**************************************************************************************************
Why on some items? not others?
does it delineate the staging? Stagers?

I doubt it. Probably no connection with the crime.

 

[sgrump]

What's eating me alive about this case is YOU CAN'T START NEW THREADS. Websleuths is letting Jonbenet down. The 20th anniversary is coming with a host of information that needs to be addressed.

Please report (hit the red triangle in the left bottom) this post over and over to knock some sense into the moderators.

 

[TeaTime]

What eats at me? The fact that JR called American Express trying to figure out exactly what PR bought at the hardware store in the weeks before the murder. Why would he do that?

What eats at me? The fact that the RN was written in PR's handwriting, in her language, on her note pad, with her pen. There were two note pads in the drawer, one hers, one JR's. The intruder chose hers.

What eats at me? That BR told the psychologist that he thought someone very quietly took JBR into the basement with a knife or something and a knife was in the basement. The knife was just like one of the 2 he owned but wasn't his. The baseball bat in the yard wasn't his either. That he said JBR walked upstairs on her own and 2 years later stated that the last time he saw her alive was in the car, she was laying down on the seat.

What eats at me? The fact that the parents insisted BR was asleep despite hearing him on the 911 call and his own statement that PR rushed into his room and flipped on the lights looking for something and that instead of JR waking him to dress him for the trip the White's house, he was awake and playing with his micro machine. (whatever that is) And, most of all, the fact that the parents allegedly believed their daughter had been kidnapped from her bed in her second floor bedroom but left BR alone in his while all the commotion was going on downstairs.

What eats at me? The fact that the parents refused to talk to LE until April 1997.

 

[Deleted member 122964]

What I keep returning to is the language in the ransom note. The language used is not everyday language.

Imagine assembling a large room of individuals from diverse backgrounds and having them write an imaginary ransom note. I strongly suspect the resulting notes would not include words & phrases like "attache," "faction," "to the letter," and "deviation of my instructions" (to list just a few). It makes me think of Ruby Payne's book A Framework for Understanding Poverty; Payne included a set of quizzes in the book that made readers consider how socioeconomic standing impacted knowledge. For example, her quizzes implied that individuals in poverty would know how to move quickly and a wealthy person would know how to hire house staff. There's more to the book than this, but it makes me think the words in the ransom note are words of someone who is wealthy and highly educated. Attache is a word of the wealthy. Seriously-briefcase and bag are the middle-class and lower income versions of the word. Who says "deviation of my instructions" in a ransom note written under duress? As a college instructor, I know--for a fact--- that this type of language is not the norm for the overwhelming majority of folks.

Of course, there are misspellings (keep in mind an educated individual with some spelling issues is not unheard of) and grittier phrasing ("Don't try to grow a brain.")---all of which could be an attempt to sound what the ransom note writer believes to be "tough."

And then there is the length of the note. My college students groan when asked to write a full page during class. A note this length would take most of my students a full class period to write. And to think this note was composed in the Ramsey home during the midst of a horrific crime. What criminal has the time to write such a ransom note? A quick, scary note and quicker exit would make more sense.

Yes, the ransom note bothers me to no end. It seems ridiculous--like a note in a bad, overwrought fictional crime novel. I try to keep an open mind, so I can be more willing to see different possibilities in the case. However the ransom note just keeps eating away at my open mind.....

 

[sloane7777]

The very worst thing that gets me , is she was supposed to be safe in her home and she knew what was happening! poor baby

 

[Mountain_Kat]

What eats me alive is how the investigation was handled by the first responding LEO's. The crime scene was completely trashed before that poor child's body was even found...and it continued to be trashed right up to the point where Pam Paugh was allowed to come back to the house and run amok removing evidence.

 

[reintarnation]

What eats me alive is how the investigation was handled by the first responding LEO's. The crime scene was completely trashed before that poor child's body was even found...and it continued to be trashed right up to the point where Pam Paugh was allowed to come back to the house and run amok removing evidence.

Even the explanation of them first thinking that they had a kidnapping and had to search outside the house doesn't satisfy me. They still should have done a thorough search of the home and locked it down as a crime scene - even if they thought she was kidnapped, someone had to enter the home to do that and leave the ransom note. The fact that people were permitted to enter the home, search it privately, clean it, and remove items is inexcusable regardless of whether they thought they had a kidnapping or murder by an intruder or anyone else!!!

This is where I feel the Ramseys got very, very lucky. BPD was short staffed because of the holiday, was relatively inexperienced in homicide investigations, and had a DA's office with a habit of not trying cases in court disproportionate to other DA's offices. IMO, we wouldn't be debating this 20 years later if the stars hadn't aligned so ideally for the Ramseys' case.

That said, as much as those initial blunders keep me up at night out of frustration, I do commend the efforts made by LE after that to try and solve this case. They did a tremendous job with what they had to work with, and IMO probably would have gotten someone behind bars if it weren't for BDA.

 

[apabld]

Something I can't quite get my head around is if someone in the house accidentally injured JB, why didn't they seek help and decided instead to make it look like an attempted kidnapping? Of course, people can make snap decisions but the cover up was very extensive.

 

[reintarnation]

Something I can't quite get my head around is if someone in the house accidentally injured JB, why didn't they seek help and decided instead to make it look like an attempted kidnapping? Of course, people can make snap decisions but the cover up was very extensive.

Afraid of going to prison, losing their other child, damaging their reputation (JR was the owner of a $1B business at the time), losing their wealth, etc., etc.

 

[DeDee]

Afraid of going to prison, losing their other child, damaging their reputation (JR was the owner of a $1B business at the time), losing their wealth, etc., etc.

It is a bit confusing about JRs business decisions and moves but here it is from 2 sources. The candyrose page re: his career makes for interesting reading. At the time, there was no stopping JRs continuing growth in personal wealth. JR, imho, was a business genius even though PR solicited her father, att, to help save the ATL co. she and JR operated from their home pre-children.

"His net worth was reported at $6.4 million as of May 1, 1996."

In 1989, [JR] formed the Advanced Product Group, one of three companies that merged to become Access Graphics. [Me: This merger made JR some enemies even though he remained friends with Merrick until the funeral.] He became president and chief executive officer of Access Graphics, a computer services company and a subsidiary of Lockheed Martin.[3]
In 1996, Access Graphics grossed over $1 billion, and he was named "Entrepreneur of the Year" by the Boulder Chamber of Commerce. Immediately following the murder of his daughter he was "temporarily replaced so the company did not have to bother him about business matters as he grieved", according to Lockheed Martin spokesman Evan McCollum.[4]
Ramsey soon left his job to move his family to Michigan, where he joined another computer company. Access Graphics was later sold to General Electric in 1997.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bennett_Ramsey

The sale of AG to General Electric in Nov. 1997.
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/nov/04/business/fi-50048

Access Graphics Inc., the largest private employer on the Downtown Mall, has decided to keep its 320 employees in the 1400 block of Pearl Street and build a new, 24,000-square-foot building to accommodate its expanding work force. [...] keeping 320 workers in Boulder. [...] The new building will be in the long-vacant space veiled by a mural at 1433 Pearl Street. Third-story additions are proposed for two buildings west of the Access headquarters at 1412 and 1414 Pearl St. Access also rents space at 1425 and 1427 Pearl St.
Purchased by Lockheed Martin in 1991, the company has grown into one of the country's larger distributors of Unix-based computer systems. Access pioneered the concept of providing outside sales, support and training services for manufacturers.

In 1990, Access posted $59 million in sales and had 120 employees. While revenues have grown about 1,600 percent, employment has grown about 358 percent, to 550 employees. About 380 employees are in Boulder, 100 in Europe, 20 in Mexico City, 12 in Canada and some at warehouses in California and Pennsylvania.

Access Graphics, a wholly owned subsidiary of Bethesda, Md.-based Lockheed Martin Corp., gets about 60 percent of its revenues from selling hard ware and software...

John Ramsey, president of Access Graphics, thanked about 300 employees at the gathering and told them it couldn't have happened without them. The $1 billion in sales is about a 25 percent increase over the $800 million the company posted last year, and Ramsey foresees continued growth.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-xmas-access-12201996.htm

Fairly, all of JRs $6,000,000 in wealth went to the pockets of Lin Wood and other lawyers. There is a disturbing quote on acandyrose site where one of the lawyer's boasts about becoming a millionaire by successfully defending JR.

 

[madeleine]

What eats me alive is how the investigation was handled by the first responding LEO's. The crime scene was completely trashed before that poor child's body was even found...and it continued to be trashed right up to the point where Pam Paugh was allowed to come back to the house and run amok removing evidence.

ITA with you!
And thats why I was always in minority by not feeling any compassion for L.Arndt at all.So what if she was the only officer at the scene.Thats no excuse.She was TRAINED for the job.She was a cop.She knew what contaminating the crime scene means for a future prosecution!!

Poor LA, GMAB!

Too many people around to control.She should have yelled you, you you GET OUT!Keep the two Ramseys there without allowing them to touch anything , especially the body good God.

 

[Roy23]

What I keep returning to is the language in the ransom note. The language used is not everyday language.

Imagine assembling a large room of individuals from diverse backgrounds and having them write an imaginary ransom note. I strongly suspect the resulting notes would not include words & phrases like "attache," "faction," "to the letter," and "deviation of my instructions" (to list just a few). It makes me think of Ruby Payne's book A Framework for Understanding Poverty; Payne included a set of quizzes in the book that made readers consider how socioeconomic standing impacted knowledge. For example, her quizzes implied that individuals in poverty would know how to move quickly and a wealthy person would know how to hire house staff. There's more to the book than this, but it makes me think the words in the ransom note are words of someone who is wealthy and highly educated. Attache is a word of the wealthy. Seriously-briefcase and bag are the middle-class and lower income versions of the word. Who says "deviation of my instructions" in a ransom note written under duress? As a college instructor, I know--for a fact--- that this type of language is not the norm for the overwhelming majority of folks.

Of course, there are misspellings (keep in mind an educated individual with some spelling issues is not unheard of) and grittier phrasing ("Don't try to grow a brain.")---all of which could be an attempt to sound what the ransom note writer believes to be "tough."

And then there is the length of the note. My college students groan when asked to write a full page during class. A note this length would take most of my students a full class period to write. And to think this note was composed in the Ramsey home during the midst of a horrific crime. What criminal has the time to write such a ransom note? A quick, scary note and quicker exit would make more sense.

Yes, the ransom note bothers me to no end. It seems ridiculous--like a note in a bad, overwrought fictional crime novel. I try to keep an open mind, so I can be more willing to see different possibilities in the case. However the ransom note just keeps eating away at my open mind.....

Very good points.

 

[nona's mum]

Law enforcement screw ups. If only back up had been sent. If only half the town hadnt trampled through the house. If only LA hadn't let JR go off on another search. If only JR didn't move the body, if only they hadn't covered her with a blanket. If only police had separated the Ramsey's straight away. If only the R's were interviewed straight away. If only...

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Afraid of going to prison, losing their other child, damaging their reputation (JR was the owner of a $1B business at the time), losing their wealth, etc., etc.

You don't go to prison over accidents. No one accidentally kills their child with a garrote and then stages a kidnapping and a murder
If your child is hurt you call for help.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BBB167893]

Even the explanation of them first thinking that they had a kidnapping and had to search outside the house doesn't satisfy me. They still should have done a thorough search of the home and locked it down as a crime scene - even if they thought she was kidnapped, someone had to enter the home to do that and leave the ransom note. The fact that people were permitted to enter the home, search it privately, clean it, and remove items is inexcusable regardless of whether they thought they had a kidnapping or murder by an intruder or anyone else!!!

This is where I feel the Ramseys got very, very lucky. BPD was short staffed because of the holiday, was relatively inexperienced in homicide investigations, and had a DA's office with a habit of not trying cases in court disproportionate to other DA's offices. IMO, we wouldn't be debating this 20 years later if the stars hadn't aligned so ideally for the Ramseys' case.

That said, as much as those initial blunders keep me up at night out of frustration, I do commend the efforts made by LE after that to try and solve this case. They did a tremendous job with what they had to work with, and IMO probably would have gotten someone behind bars if it weren't for BDA.

Agreed, 100% The Boulder DA's were completely inadequate at best, and at worst playing for the Ramseys' team. LE enforcement was outlawyered, outmaneuvered and just flat out-BS'ed by the Ramseys, who they sorely underestimated.

 

[BBB167893]

Something I can't quite get my head around is if someone in the house accidentally injured JB, why didn't they seek help and decided instead to make it look like an attempted kidnapping? Of course, people can make snap decisions but the cover up was very extensive.

There's been a lot of wondering about that, apabld. And I would just remind everyone about what Stephen Pitt said on the Dateline show: a person cannot say what they would or wouldn't do until they're faced with that problem.

As the the reasons, reintarnation's listed a few:

Afraid of going to prison, losing their other child, damaging their reputation (JR was the owner of a $1B business at the time), losing their wealth, etc., etc.

And I think all of those played into it, but I would add what their families would think and their own egos. When we say "accident," we mean more of a thoughtless act. It's one thing to have an accident that IS an accident. You don't know how bad it is, and you call for help. It's another thing altogether to directly cause a terrible injury, even without intention. Because then it's YOUR fault. "I did that." But, as I think happened in Patsy's case, you're too self-absorbed or just too much of a perfectionist to admit it, to anyone else or yourself. You don't think she's still alive or that there's any hope. And even if there is, what kind of life will she have from here on? A wheelchair-bound invalid unable to feed herself for the rest of her life? She'll never win any pageants that way. And taking care of her, changing her diapers when she's 15, 16? All the time she's staring at you with those blank, glassy eyes. And you could have a recurrence of cancer any time. Who will take care of her then? And what if she does regain consciousness? What if she blabs what happened?
Add to that finding out that your baby was broken in another way, which adds a practical reason for a coverup.

I apologize to everyone for being so graphic.

 

[BoldBear]

Short staffed has nothing to do with it. That was an excuse. They didn't have a solid protocol. They're the police department and didn't have a contingency plan. People have poked fun that this was the Mayberry PD run by Barney Fife. But it's true. A police department must be prepared for things they've never encountered or they botch a case like the BPD did. This is an example of what not to do.

 

[MsJosie]

That the Ramseys would not allow her body to be exhumed. I realize it is a hard decision, but if the family really wanted to find the killer, they would do it. However, if the family really wanted to hide something, then they would not exhume the body.

I really want to know the autopsy report, have the head injury investigated to see how her head was hit....it could tell if it was a child or adult that hit her head, was the blow low, high, angled one way or the other...lots of questions there. With the advance in science this can be done along with any new DNA...that is what I think the Ramseys are afraid of, the new advanced sciences could show who the killer(s) are.