What's eating you alive re this case?

[Disgusted]

The whole "zonked" thing was just more deceptive distancing, nothing more. It was said to support their claim that JBR was never awake and certainly not up playing with BR or anyone else in the family.

None of the evidence supports this theory and plenty proves it wrong. But worse, it doesn't pass even a basic sniff test. Any parent who has ever held, carried or handled a sleeping child will know that moving and interacting with a sleeping child is VASTLY different than what would happen if your child were lifeless due to a massive head injury rendering them completely unable to move or control any movements. The two scenarios are as different as fire and ice.

Sorry, but it didn't happen.

 

[kanzz]

I trust what the R's said so little - I'll just say that JB might or might not have been asleep when they all got home that night. And that the word "zonked" might be indicative of the R's way of coping with JB's state of consciousness when she was strangled (i.e. after the head blow) after they learned about it. They didn't use this word or give any information about that night until they were finally questioned, which was well after they learned the results of the autopsy report (unfortunately).

 

[Rott Mom]

I trust what the R's said so little - I'll just say that JB might or might not have been asleep when they all got home that night. And that the word "zonked" might be indicative of the R's way of coping with JB's state of consciousness when she was strangled (i.e. after the head blow) after they learned about it. They didn't use this word or give any information about that night until they were finally questioned, which was well after they learned the results of the autopsy report (unfortunately).

Yeah, it was more important to appear on CNN rather than cooperating w/ LE. If that doesn't "sum" it up, I don't know what does.

 

[Meara]

Thanks for the very interesting question/discussion upthread about why Fleet White didn't notice the odor of decomposition when he checked the wine cellar at 6:00 A.M. Here are a few more possibilities to add to the mix.

What if FW didn't smell the odor in the wine cellar because JBR's body wasn't there at 6:00 A.M.? Not to be a hopeless bore on the point, but it could have been lying on the floor of the 9 ft. walk-in closet next to the laundry room. You can see the closet door with the inset lock in this photo.

Like the wine cellar, the locked closet could have escaped inspection by LE because at that time they were looking only for kidnapper exit routes. Perhaps during his mystery minutes JR moved the body from the closet to the wine cellar.

Here's another set of factors your posts prompted me to consider.

The night of the Dec. 25th - 26th, 1996, the temperature in Boulder dropped to somewhere between -12* F and 6* F (weathersource.com; many similar sources can be found).

Police reports note that when officers arrived, snow on the ground extended right up to the base of the house.

We know from BR that the older east end of the house where his room was located was colder on winter nights than the western addition where JBR slept. This, he says, is why he sometimes got up in the night and went to sleep in her room. *

The wine cellar, too, was at the colder end of the house, below the sunroom. Said to have served as a coal bin for the original owners, it has sturdy concrete walls, a snug door (PR said it didn't open easily because it grazed the hallway carpet), no windows, and no heating vents. In the floor plan below, you can see how the north wall of the room doubles in thickness to support the corner fireplace one floor above and once bore the weight of coal deliveries.

You can also see the crawl space on the other side of the wine cellar's west wall. This area, too, was unheated.

Most theories say the room was chosen as the best place to hide the body and, given that JR had to "find" JBR for the police, it's hard to disagree. But wasn't that cold-insulated-with-cold, virtually sealed room also the best place to preserve the body?


* [rant] What is WITH these people? They had millions of dollars but couldn't manage to install toilet paper holders in all the lavs. They put a ceiling fan in JBR's bedroom but couldn't seem to find the kind that has both light sockets and fan blades -- the kind seen everywhere in Atlanta. Their bed had layers of soft covers, and JBR's beds had thick cozy bedding. But Burke had that flat, uninviting bed with the thin coverlet, like some junior monk in training, in what sounds like the coldest bedroom in the house. The crime scene shot of it has haunted me for years.

These parents had two boats, a private airplane, a lakeside summer home, a Jag in the garage, Christmas presents for all their friends, expensive costumes and classes for JBR in the performing arts and conversational Hittite, and more posessions than they could keep track of, yet they couldn't make sure their 10 year old son had enough covers?:gaah: [/rant]

 

[Miz Adventure]

Thanks for the very interesting question/discussion upthread about why Fleet White didn't notice the odor of decomposition when he checked the wine cellar at 6:00 A.M. Here are a few more possibilities to add to the mix.

What if FW didn't smell the odor in the wine cellar because JBR's body wasn't there at 6:00 A.M.? Not to be a hopeless bore on the point, but it could have been lying on the floor of the 9 ft. walk-in closet next to the laundry room. You can see the closet door with the inset lock in this photo.

Funnily enough Meara, yesterday I posted a very similar theory on Topix and got shouted at. That's the kind of posters you get there.

Thank you for posting the photos, they're helpful.

My theory has always been that JBR's body was placed out of sight, either in the couples garage or car, or in the crawl space within the train room - which could be why John placed a chair in front of the room.

In my theory the couple never thought the house would be searched. Their child had been 'taken' after all - a simple kidnapping.

Once the kidnapper's call did not materialize then the police would leave and the couple could put the body somewhere in the basement to be 'discovered'. The kidnapper had returned their daughter to them - murdered - because the couple had gone against instructions and had called the police.

It didn't work out that way though because the police showed no signs of leaving. John knew he had to move the body from where it was hidden.

He placed it in the wine cellar, not knowing that his friend FW had already checked that room earlier that morning. I bet Fleet was astonished to see John 'discover' JBR's body at 1pm in a place where, he, himself had already looked.

This theory, or one similar to it, can be the only explanation (that I can think of anyway) that encapulates ALL elements of the bizarre situation, i.e. it explains the note and the body being found in the house.

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks for the very interesting question/discussion upthread about why Fleet White didn't notice the odor of decomposition when he checked the wine cellar at 6:00 A.M. Here are a few more possibilities to add to the mix.

What if FW didn't smell the odor in the wine cellar because JBR's body wasn't there at 6:00 A.M.? Not to be a hopeless bore on the point, but it could have been lying on the floor of the 9 ft. walk-in closet next to the laundry room. You can see the closet door with the inset lock in this photo.

Like the wine cellar, the locked closet could have escaped inspection by LE because at that time they were looking only for kidnapper exit routes. Perhaps during his mystery minutes JR moved the body from the closet to the wine cellar.

Here's another set of factors your posts prompted me to consider.

The night of the Dec. 25th - 26th, 1996, the temperature in Boulder dropped to somewhere between -12* F and 6* F (weathersource.com; many similar sources can be found).

Police reports note that when officers arrived, snow on the ground extended right up to the base of the house.

We know from BR that the older east end of the house where his room was located was colder on winter nights than the western addition where JBR slept. This, he says, is why he sometimes got up in the night and went to sleep in her room. *

The wine cellar, too, was at the colder end of the house, below the sunroom. Said to have served as a coal bin for the original owners, it has sturdy concrete walls, a snug door (PR said it didn't open easily because it grazed the hallway carpet), no windows, and no heating vents. In the floor plan below, you can see how the north wall of the room doubles in thickness to support the corner fireplace one floor above and once bore the weight of coal deliveries.

You can also see the crawl space on the other side of the wine cellar's west wall. This area, too, was unheated.

Most theories say the room was chosen as the best place to hide the body and, given that JR had to "find" JBR for the police, it's hard to disagree. But wasn't that cold-insulated-with-cold, virtually sealed room also the best place to preserve the body?


* [rant] What is WITH these people? They had millions of dollars but couldn't manage to install toilet paper holders in all the lavs. They put a ceiling fan in JBR's bedroom but couldn't seem to find the kind that has both light sockets and fan blades -- the kind seen everywhere in Atlanta. Their bed had layers of soft covers, and JBR's beds had thick cozy bedding. But Burke had that flat, uninviting bed with the thin coverlet, like some junior monk in training, in what sounds like the coldest bedroom in the house. The crime scene shot of it has haunted me for years.

These parents had two boats, a private airplane, a lakeside summer home, a Jag in the garage, Christmas presents for all their friends, expensive costumes and classes for JBR in the performing arts and conversational Hittite, and more posessions than they could keep track of, yet they couldn't make sure their 10 year old son had enough covers?:gaah: [/rant]

Meara,
There only appears to be one blanket on that bed. Fleet White said he put it there.

So this is what BR was lying beneath when the officer looked in. Certainly does not look as if there is enough to keep anyone warm?

Then again BR's bedroom looks so sparse and relatively tidy precisely because he probably hung out so much in JonBenet's bedroom.

My money is on BR sharing JonBenet's bedroom on both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day thereby leading indirectly, e.g. playing doctor, to JonBenet's death?

.

 

[Miz Adventure]

MizAdventure - I, too, want to believe that mothers do not harm their children in horrific ways but it happens all day every day. It is a fact.

Yes I know they do but all I am saying is that SURELY it would take more for a mother to have the impetus to strangle her child to death than simply finding her lying unconscious - especially if there were no visible signs of injury?

It all points to BR having carried out both parts of the attacks. Patsy found her daughter when it was just too late to save her.

 

[Ambitioned]

My money is on BR sharing JonBenet's bedroom on both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day thereby leading indirectly, e.g. playing doctor, to JonBenet's death?

.

Agreed. After all, his jammies were on the floor of her room were they not?

 

[UKGuy]

Agreed. After all, his jammies were on the floor of her room were they not?

Ambitioned,
BBM: According to Kolar, yes. Although this has not been forensically confirmed.

Then there is JonBenet found wearing BR's long johns. Now where are all the posters that used to tell me, JonBenet is wearing the size-12's because Patsy did not want her daughter to be seen not nicely dressed?

Then there is the fecal smearing which is either just childish bad manners or some kind of maladaptive behavior.

I forget did Kolar say BR's alleged pajama bottoms were fecally soiled?

I reckon JonBenet and BR had their pineapple snack then retired to JonBenet's bedroom where she was assaulted and effectively killed, with BR doing some of the staging, but not all. The parents did the rest along with the RN and 911 call, all to avoid BR being named?

ETA: I'm just about to watch JonBenet's Mother Killer or Victim, I'm not certain if I've already seen it under another title, A&E?


.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Burke would not have been able to carry the body of JBR all the way down to the basement so are you saying you think she was killed in BR's bed?

 

[UKGuy]

Burke would not have been able to carry the body of JBR all the way down to the basement so are you saying you think she was killed in BR's bed?

Miz Adventure,
I'm assuming JonBenet's bedroom, but it could just have easily been BR's bedroom with his room being forensically cleaned, hence the neat and tidy look?

.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Yes I know they do but all I am saying is that SURELY it would take more for a mother to have the impetus to strangle her child to death than simply finding her lying unconscious - especially if there were no visible signs of injury?

It all points to BR having carried out both parts of the attacks. Patsy found her daughter when it was just too late to save her.

I struggle here a little.

I have no doubt that Burke hit her. He had a million reasons to resent his sister, he'd hit her in the face before, and was an odd boy to begin with. His behavior in the taped interviews is not that of a boy bewildered by the sudden, violent death of an only (for the most part) sibling and his complete lack of fear for his own safety is telling. No way would a kid who didn't know what happened be so utterly unconcerned.

I don't believe Patsy killed her daughter because the head strike was such a horrific, violent act sure to kill or cause significant brain damage. A parent with no prior history of physical abuse or violence is not likely to suddenly act out in such a way. Lash out in frustration by yelling or slapping or smacking? It happens even with normally good, well-meaning parents. But a sudden baseball-like swing to her tiny child's head? Over what? Nope, I'll never buy it. And I can't see John Ramsey, who didn't seem to be all that in love with his wife by then, covering for her for 10 years or leaving his surviving child in her care and clearly at risk of sudden death by head bashing.

I don't believe John Ramsey sexually assaulted his daughter. She was his fifth child and third daughter and no one has ever so much as implied JR abused anyone sexually previously. She was also not raped by a man. The sexual abuse she suffered appears more likely to done a a curious, nasty boy. I hate the phrase "playing doctor" in this context because that, at least to me, conjures up a notion of two similarly aged children playing "show me yours, I'll show you mine." Burke was a preteen, nearly four years older and much bigger. And if he was assaulting his sister, there is no way she was a consenting partner to his cruel, painful actions. They were not "playing doctor". So I'm completely comfortable concluding that Burke was the one abusing her sexually and the one who hit her in the head that night. Why didn't she tell anyone he was hurting her? As an oldest child, I can confirm that it's pretty easy to bully a younger sibling into silence. (Mind, you I'm talking broken lamps or stolen cookies here. I remain ashamed of my abuse of power.) Or maybe she tried in her own way, and no one heard or listened closely enough.

But I really don't know what happened next, and I think that's what keeps me coming back here. JonBenet is grievously wounded, presumably out of eyesight and earshot of her parents, one who is in bed and one who is either on the second - or more likely - third floor probably awake and busy. (I'm using Patsy's lack of clothing change to conclude this). I agree with you; it's hard to imagine either parent upon finding their nearly dead child deciding to stage a violent, sexually motivated death. But it's also hard for me to visualize a not-quite 10 year old being so cunning as to cover his tracks - no pun intended - by creating a noose to strangle her to be sure to she was finally dead. On balance, I guess I lean towards Burke over John or Patsy, but here again, how on earth could they both decide not turn such a sick boy in for help and instead cover for him with the ransom letter and endless lies? The head injury could be considered accidental - done in anger, didn't know his own strength, hit her harder than intended - but not the strangulation. Kolar implied he believed Burke did it all. I'd love to know what else he might know or why he was so certain of this.

Either way, the game is up, Ramseys and Lin Wood. Anyone who knows what facts can be known about this case knows the Ramseys (at least one, and probably two or three) did this. But keep on suing. Given enough time, the truth usually has a way of finding it's way out. John Ramsey may escape it all through death or dementia, but Burke has another 50 or 60 years to deal with the questions and scrutiny, and like the cases of Lizzie Borden, the Lindbergh baby, and Leopold and Loeb, this one isn't going away. Not ever.

 

[BOBON]

These parents had two boats, a private airplane, a lakeside summer home, a Jag in the garage, Christmas presents for all their friends, expensive costumes and classes for JBR in the performing arts and conversational Hittite, and more posessions than they could keep track of, yet they couldn't make sure their 10 year old son had enough covers?:gaah: [/rant]

Very good points there! I am not sayingthat Burke wasn't neglected (JB was clearly
the favorite) but in regards to his bed looking very simple, I also know that
Aspergers/Autistic people don't like certain textures/farbics so it could be easily
explained that maybe he just didn't want many layers - just a thought

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

These photos of B's room are snipped from our poster Lisasalinger's blog.
She has added a few new interesting articles ..

https://shakedowntitle.com/2016/12/31/deconstructing-the-ramseys-tapestry/#jp-carousel-6384

 

[Gigitmdy]

Harmony, that was very well thought out & written. I tend to think Burke did all the physical damage & there was also some staging by Patsy & John to cover. I believe his knife was used to cut the rope & duct tape. I'm not sure of all the sequence of events. I just finished Kolar's book. What a strange, cold boy he was. Heartbreaking...

 

[Gigitmdy]

I believe Fleet White made Burke's bed 12/26 trying to be helpful.

 

[Cerin Amroth]

So is the consensus that Burke was/is autistic?

 

[BOBON]

So is the consensus that Burke was/is autistic?

I don't think that anyone has a official diagnosis but he certainly could be on the spectrum. He can't tell conversational / emotional clues,
albeit he may be a good liar (does as told) you can see that he is utterly uncomfortable and awkward in the Dr Phil interview, he is smiling at (what society deems as inappropriate moments) but I don't think it's because
he thinks it's funny but more so because he doesn't understand how to act- if he would be a psychopath, he'd be at ease with putting on a mask, blending in and pretending
to be sly charming, messing with the viewers and Dr Phil - people can say that he put on the show of being
awkward but I truly believe it was his true nature showing and it would fit in with his computer work - working
remotely from home, he doesn't have much contact with anyone, he also never had it as a child. He liked computer games but hated the noise (another thing that would fit with being on the spectrum)
Seeing how he got no attention as a child and also was different from everyone else, he must have had some inner frustration
which can be shown in "lashing out"... paring that with the poop smearing possibly from trauma / neglect,
I think another possibility being RAD (reactive attachment disorder)... it is an illness that means the child has no bond with family and it can happen due to them being a victim of abuse, neglect or abandonment.

RAD:
[FONT=&quot]An aversion to touch and physical affection. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Control issues. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Anger problems. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Difficulty showing genuine care and affection. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]An underdeveloped conscience. Children with reactive attachment disorder may act like they don’t have a conscience and fail to show guilt, regret, or remorse after behaving badly.[/FONT]

 

[EtherealMoonRose]

I struggle here a little.

I have no doubt that Burke hit her. He had a million reasons to resent his sister, he'd hit her in the face before, and was an odd boy to begin with. His behavior in the taped interviews is not that of a boy bewildered by the sudden, violent death of an only (for the most part) sibling and his complete lack of fear for his own safety is telling. No way would a kid who didn't know what happened be so utterly unconcerned.

I don't believe Patsy killed her daughter because the head strike was such a horrific, violent act sure to kill or cause significant brain damage. A parent with no prior history of physical abuse or violence is not likely to suddenly act out in such a way. Lash out in frustration by yelling or slapping or smacking? It happens even with normally good, well-meaning parents. But a sudden baseball-like swing to her tiny child's head? Over what? Nope, I'll never buy it. And I can't see John Ramsey, who didn't seem to be all that in love with his wife by then, covering for her for 10 years or leaving his surviving child in her care and clearly at risk of sudden death by head bashing.

I don't believe John Ramsey sexually assaulted his daughter. She was his fifth child and third daughter and no one has ever so much as implied JR abused anyone sexually previously. She was also not raped by a man. The sexual abuse she suffered appears more likely to done a a curious, nasty boy. I hate the phrase "playing doctor" in this context because that, at least to me, conjures up a notion of two similarly aged children playing "show me yours, I'll show you mine." Burke was a preteen, nearly four years older and much bigger. And if he was assaulting his sister, there is no way she was a consenting partner to his cruel, painful actions. They were not "playing doctor". So I'm completely comfortable concluding that Burke was the one abusing her sexually and the one who hit her in the head that night. Why didn't she tell anyone he was hurting her? As an oldest child, I can confirm that it's pretty easy to bully a younger sibling into silence. (Mind, you I'm talking broken lamps or stolen cookies here. I remain ashamed of my abuse of power.) Or maybe she tried in her own way, and no one heard or listened closely enough.

But I really don't know what happened next, and I think that's what keeps me coming back here. JonBenet is grievously wounded, presumably out of eyesight and earshot of her parents, one who is in bed and one who is either on the second - or more likely - third floor probably awake and busy. (I'm using Patsy's lack of clothing change to conclude this). I agree with you; it's hard to imagine either parent upon finding their nearly dead child deciding to stage a violent, sexually motivated death. But it's also hard for me to visualize a not-quite 10 year old being so cunning as to cover his tracks - no pun intended - by creating a noose to strangle her to be sure to she was finally dead. On balance, I guess I lean towards Burke over John or Patsy, but here again, how on earth could they both decide not turn such a sick boy in for help and instead cover for him with the ransom letter and endless lies? The head injury could be considered accidental - done in anger, didn't know his own strength, hit her harder than intended - but not the strangulation. Kolar implied he believed Burke did it all. I'd love to know what else he might know or why he was so certain of this.

Either way, the game is up, Ramseys and Lin Wood. Anyone who knows what facts can be known about this case knows the Ramseys (at least one, and probably two or three) did this. But keep on suing. Given enough time, the truth usually has a way of finding it's way out. John Ramsey may escape it all through death or dementia, but Burke has another 50 or 60 years to deal with the questions and scrutiny, and like the cases of Lizzie Borden, the Lindbergh baby, and Leopold and Loeb, this one isn't going away. Not ever.

This is my first time posting. I have been following this case since I was a young girl. I am 2 years older than JB so I guess that has something to do with my curiosity regarding this case.

I just wanted to say that I agree with ALL of this. Although I don't have an opinion on where the murder took place, either JB bedroom, BR bedroom or even the basement. The scream that the neighbour heard was PR discovering a lifeless JB. JMO.

I also wanted to add that I am a mother of four young children so it's also hard for me to fathom a mother OR father strangling their daughter to stage a crime (yes, I do know parents are capable of horrible things..)

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*I don't believe John Ramsey sexually assaulted his daughter. She was his fifth child and third daughter and no one has ever so much as implied JR abused anyone sexually previously.*snip*

Patsy, unlike Lucinda, was a former beauty queen whose femininity was blackened and destroyed by stage 4 ovarian cancer. She may have had anger at John who didn't have to suffer like she did. She may have resented JonBenet for still being able to keep her femininity. Through her anger, Patsy may have subtly pushed JonBenet towards John as a surrogate.