What's in this cellar room photo?

[DeeDee249]

I find it hard to believe that those cans would have been sitting in the middle of
The room where JBs body ended up. I wonder about the aluminum baseball bat found just outside. Or maybe the sound was from the window grate?


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Doubt it was the window grate- there was an INTACT spider web found on that grate that would not have been there if the grate had been moved. There was debris all around it that showed no evidence of being disturbed. No one came in or out that window. There was also said to be a large piece of sheet metal in the very spot where JB was placed which covered a safe sunk into the floor. This sheet metal appears in some crime photos. That WC was used for storage- in addition to the paint cans, there were storm windows and screens, as well as lots of other things of the type you'd keep in a basement. The crime scene photos of the basement show a very messy and haphazard way of storing things- stuff literally hanging off shelves, etc. I see no reason why paint cans would NOT be in the middle of the room. There didn't seem to be shelves in there.

 

[andreww]

Doubt it was the window grate- there was an INTACT spider web found on that grate that would not have been there if the grate had been moved. There was debris all around it that showed no evidence of being disturbed. No one came in or out that window. There was also said to be a large piece of sheet metal in the very spot where JB was placed which covered a safe sunk into the floor. This sheet metal appears in some crime photos. That WC was used for storage- in addition to the paint cans, there were storm windows and screens, as well as lots of other things of the type you'd keep in a basement. The crime scene photos of the basement show a very messy and haphazard way of storing things- stuff literally hanging off shelves, etc. I see no reason why paint cans would NOT be in the middle of the room. There didn't seem to be shelves in there.

The reason I say that is because even though the entire basement was messy, everything seemed to be stored against a wall. And, as Patsy had been using that room to wrap gifts, I very much doubt that the cans would have been in the middle. Also, paint cans are not heavy and it would probably be harder to drag them than it would be to lift them. Lastly, a paint can being dragged a few feet across a basement floor would not make enough noise to be heard from another house on the street.


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[DeeDee249]

The reason I say that is because even though the entire basement was messy, everything seemed to be stored against a wall. And, as Patsy had been using that room to wrap gifts, I very much doubt that the cans would have been in the middle. Also, paint cans are not heavy and it would probably be harder to drag them than it would be to lift them. Lastly, a paint can being dragged a few feet across a basement floor would not make enough noise to be heard from another house on the street.


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Police investigated the basement, and found that a vent to the outside enabled an officer standing across the street in front of the Stanton's house (the neighbors who heard the scream and metal scraping sounds) and found that sounds could be heard from across the street. These neighbors also said that they always slept with the bedroom window open, even in winter.
I don't believe for a second that Patsy really wrapped gifts in that filthy wine cellar. There is no surface to wrap on, no table, etc. and I cannot see anyone, especially Patsy (who was said to be fastidious about her clothing, although a messy housekeeper) would sit on that filthy, moldy floor to wrap gift, which would also have to be placed on that filthy, moldy floor. That metal scraping sound could have been the sheet metal seen in the crime photo, or it could have been the paint cans- we'll never know.

 

[UKGuy]

Police investigated the basement, and found that a vent to the outside enabled an officer standing across the street in front of the Stanton's house (the neighbors who heard the scream and metal scraping sounds) and found that sounds could be heard from across the street. These neighbors also said that they always slept with the bedroom window open, even in winter.
I don't believe for a second that Patsy really wrapped gifts in that filthy wine cellar. There is no surface to wrap on, no table, etc. and I cannot see anyone, especially Patsy (who was said to be fastidious about her clothing, although a messy housekeeper) would sit on that filthy, moldy floor to wrap gift, which would also have to be placed on that filthy, moldy floor. That metal scraping sound could have been the sheet metal seen in the crime photo, or it could have been the paint cans- we'll never know.

DeeDee249,
BBM: ITA. When you add this to Patsy's comments regarding the size-12's then its possible to see her simply making stuff up as she goes along.

I reckon a lot of what Patsy says is an explanation for prior forensic evidence dressed up as Ramsey domestic habits.


.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

I've been going through the older discussion threads and this discussion over the photo of what looks to be a doll in the WC really intrigued me. The more I looked at all the pictures submitted, however, the more I have become convinced that it's NOT a Barbie doll. I feel nervous making this comment, because it has become so generally accepted now that a Barbie doll was there in that spot and possibly redacted from the inventory list of evidence taken from the crime scene. So please bear with me as I now go completely against the grain as to what we may be seeing here.

I believe it's a slightly crumpled but flattened piece of the FAO Schwarz wrapping. The rocking horse design. Here is a compilation of images to help you visualize what I saw instead of the outline of a small doll. The 'red & white dress' is the red block on the rocking horse paper, the 'yellow hair splayed out' is the yellow block on the rocking horse paper. Unfortunately I was unable to find a 2D flat image of the wrapping paper - the best I could find was the pic of the logo, and a more 3D wrapped gift which has red ribbon and tassel trim obscuring parts of the yellow and red blocks. But you can still see, to some extent, the angle of the yellow block in relation to the red.

 

[SecretaryGal]

I've been going through the older discussion threads and this discussion over the photo of what looks to be a doll in the WC really intrigued me. The more I looked at all the pictures submitted, however, the more I have become convinced that it's NOT a Barbie doll. I feel nervous making this comment, because it has become so generally accepted now that a Barbie doll was there in that spot and possibly redacted from the inventory list of evidence taken from the crime scene. So please bear with me as I now go completely against the grain as to what we may be seeing here.

I believe it's a slightly crumpled but flattened piece of the FAO Schwarz wrapping. The rocking horse design. Here is a compilation of images to help you visualize what I saw instead of the outline of a small doll. The 'red & white dress' is the red block on the rocking horse paper, the 'yellow hair splayed out' is the yellow block on the rocking horse paper. Unfortunately I was unable to find a 2D flat image of the wrapping paper - the best I could find was the pic of the logo, and a more 3D wrapped gift which has red ribbon and tassel trim obscuring parts of the yellow and red blocks. But you can still see, to some extent, the angle of the yellow block in relation to the red.

Nice work!

 

[ninij9]

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[ConcernedinDC]

Police investigated the basement, and found that a vent to the outside enabled an officer standing across the street in front of the Stanton's house (the neighbors who heard the scream and metal scraping sounds) and found that sounds could be heard from across the street. These neighbors also said that they always slept with the bedroom window open, even in winter.
I don't believe for a second that Patsy really wrapped gifts in that filthy wine cellar. There is no surface to wrap on, no table, etc. and I cannot see anyone, especially Patsy (who was said to be fastidious about her clothing, although a messy housekeeper) would sit on that filthy, moldy floor to wrap gift, which would also have to be placed on that filthy, moldy floor. That metal scraping sound could have been the sheet metal seen in the crime photo, or it could have been the paint cans- we'll never know.

Agreed. With all that space in the house there is no way she was wrapping down there. My mom used to wrap gifts in my parents closet and we had no clue as kids. Why she said she wrapped there I have no idea.

 

[Meara]

Agreed. With all that space in the house there is no way she was wrapping down there. My mom used to wrap gifts in my parents closet and we had no clue as kids. Why she said she wrapped there I have no idea.

Wanting to wrap gifts in an out of the way area makes sense. If any of her story is true, my guess is she only stored the wrapped gifts in the wine cellar and used the laundry area for wrapping. This would be the area just past the train room, on the other side of the corridor. There was a counter there opposite the washing machine (with a telephone on it, which some believe was the phone actually used for the 911 call. But that's another story.).

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

NoriahNZ, I completely agree with you. I recently made a similar post here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Ramsey-CBS-Sept-18-2&p=12831968#post12831968

But your photo array is much better constructed than mine! Actually, I was corresponding with Tadpole12 about this and he/she mentioned that this item about the doll ended up in the National Enquirer at some point. Here's a thread from that time period that may include the article, haven't had a chance to re-read the thread: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...-Placed-Next-To-JonBenet-s-Body-In-The-Cellar
Basically, Tricia was told by a source (who she trusts and has gotten good info from in the past, but admits could be wrong) that a doll or dolls was found in the wine cellar, and this photo was found after that info was released, seemingly backing it up. So in my opinion, it's possible the doll info was true but I do not think this picture is of the doll/s for the same reason you mentioned. I see FAO Schwartz wrapping paper wrapped around a box. The big tell is the rocking horse figure in the red portion of the object. If you look at the other wine cellar picture in my post, you see what looks like a white box with yellow on it with the white leg of the rocking horse cutting through the yellow.

Another thing that tips me toward thinking this is a present wrapped in that specific wrapping paper is that Kolar's book includes a picture of some of the other partially unwrapped presents in the wine cellar (page 340 in my copy). There is a large Lego box and two presents in the same FAO wrapping paper not far from where the mystery object is laying. Here are two crappy mock-ups of what I see in the photo. I don't have any photo editing software installed on my computer yet so I couldn't rotate the pictures to match up entirely.

 

[sgrump]

It may just be the way it's been outlined but it does look like a brand new Barbie still in the clear flimsy plastic type box. Hard to identify exactly what doll as Mattel makes hundreds of versions a year. Many dolls are exclusive to particular stores such as Target or Walmart and Macys and even smaller outlets. Doing searches on Google and Ebay there are thousands. You have to make sure the date is pre 1996. It is not the Holiday Barbie for that year or any previous year. There are also smaller run Holiday Christmas seasonal dolls but the packaging is smaller. There are fancier collector dolls that are more expensive but they come in a 'cake box' that is all cardboard without any clear plastic at all. There are off brands that are bought and sold.

Makes it even more insane that Pam Paugh was allowed to remove dolls and everything else she carted away from the crime scene. In the deaths/murders of children the items closest to them in life may have close connections to their deaths. Didn't Jessica Lunsford (?) disappear with a stuffed animal she was found buried with?

 

[sgrump]

It may just be the way it's been outlined but it does look like a brand new Barbie still in the clear flimsy plastic type box. Hard to identify exactly what doll as Mattel makes hundreds of versions a year. Many dolls are exclusive to particular stores such as Target or Walmart and Macys and even smaller outlets. Doing searches on Google and Ebay there are thousands. You have to make sure the date is pre 1996. It is not the Holiday Barbie for that year or any previous year. There are also smaller run Holiday Christmas seasonal dolls but the packaging is smaller. There are fancier collector dolls that are more expensive but they come in a 'cake box' that is all cardboard without any clear plastic at all. There are off brands that are bought and sold.

Makes it even more insane that Pam Paugh was allowed to remove dolls and everything else she carted away from the crime scene. In the deaths/murders of children the items closest to them in life may have close connections to their deaths. Didn't Jessica Lunsford (?) disappear with a stuffed animal she was found buried with?

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Well, I was looking at the CBS documentary again to take screenshots of the crime scene video and I feel pretty confident I've found a picture of the object in question. Looks like a present wrapped in FAO Schwartz paper to me next to some paint cans.

Actually, before finding this I was going to back up my comment about Kolar's book containing a picture of additional presents in the wine cellar with that wrapping. I took a picture of the black and white version in my book and attached a tiny color comparison image I found in the doc.

Now what I'd like to know is, what is so important about that picture of a window? or house? obscured by a tree, and why is there a picture of a minivan (with an open middle door?) behind a tree & a bench?

 

[ZoriahNZ]

Wow, thank you so much for finding that photo! So I was right, it was wrapping paper, not a doll. Now we can see it matches up with this other crime scene photo:

Also, is that the elusive Burke's bike in the back of the room? And your other pic seems to be a Lego model box? Wouldn't that be the toy Burke (and JR) claimed he was so eager to put together that night? (might just be the box, but still).

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Well, it looks like a boy's bike so it probably was Burke's, but iirc the bike in the wine cellar was old and missing a tire. Since you mentioned the Lego box, here's another shot of the blanket from the crime scene video where you can see the edge of the Lego box in the bottom of the picture. It gives you a better idea of how the presents in Kolar's picture are positioned in relation to the other box. I don't know about it being the toy Burke snuck down to play with, but it is weird to me that it's sitting out unwrapped.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

from http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-christmasday.htm


- List of 1996 Christmas Gifts

Burke got Nintendo64 · DOI-2
Burke got a remote control car · DOI-3
John got a gumball machine · DOI-4
JonBenet got a bicycle · DOI-2
JonBenet got a My Twinn Doll · DOI-3, 4, 32, 242
JonBenet got a gold bracelet · DOI-344
JonBenet got a ring from Nedra · NE-51
JonBenet got a necklace from Pam · NE-51
Patsy got a bicycle · DOI-3
Patsy got green paper ornament · DOI-


Where is the LEGO set on this list? Was it a present meant for later?

There were testimonies about a toy or model Burke was wanting to play with. Members have speculated over the years what toy he was talking about. The remote control car? Still, with this photo of a Lego model set in the WC, it makes me wonder.

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/09281998aedocumentary.htm

John Ramsey: "Burke was downstairs trying to put together a model that he'd got for Christmas and I couldn't get him to go to bed. We were going to get up in the morning and leave to go to Michigan so I help him put it together so I could get him to go on to bed. So he went to bed and Patsy and I went to bed."



Dr Phil interview 9/14/16

DP: I think your dad had said he used
the flashlight that night to put you to bed
Then you snuck downstairs to play.

BR: Ya I had some toy that I wanted to put together
I remember being downstairs after everybody
was kind of in bed and wanting to get this thing out.

DP: Did you use the flashlight so you
wouldn't be seen?

BR: I don't remember -
I just remember
being downstairs, I remember this toy.


DrollForeignFaction, thanks to your photos, I believe I've tracked down what LEGO System toy it was. A monorail model.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

Did no-one at BPD try to lock down what model or toy Burke and JR were talking about? Obviously BR not admitting he snuck downstairs to play with it until Dr Phil's interview last month has a bearing on that, but still...

If it was the LEGO toy, then it places him (and/or possibly JR) in the basement, or even the WC itself.

 

[No it's not]

In the WC, the floor safe or drop:

Source: Paula Woodward video
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIpISsUtk7LemdNDHAz4ycA

 

[Heymom]

Did no-one at BPD try to lock down what model or toy Burke and JR were talking about? Obviously BR not admitting he snuck downstairs to play with it until Dr Phil's interview last month has a bearing on that, but still...

If it was the LEGO toy, then it places him (and/or possibly JR) in the basement, or even the WC itself.

I can't remember when JR said it, but at some point he mentioned a "parking garage" - don't know what it was for or if JR was telling the truth.

I think the Lego monorail must have been for Burke's birthday about 2 weeks away. Don't know if it was already wrapped - I suspect not. Maybe if BR was down in the WC and JBR went down there to see what he was up to, she was going to tattle on him for seeing his birthday present(s)? We'll never know.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

Interesting about the floor safe/drop. Wonder if it was being used at the time.

Oh, yes, I do recall a mention of a parking garage too, not sure where.

That list of presents seems woefully incomplete. I mean surely Pam and Nedra would have also given Burke a present each. If not, that's extremely odd.