Where is Steve Thomas today?

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It's interesting that PR and JR had lied so much about the day of their child's murder, but yet the only day in terms of facts SP could keep straight was the day he killed Laci (except for saying he golfed to some neighbors), he was pretty accurate again and again when questioned. I think it was easier for SP
to keep it straight more consistently was because he was the only one involved.
I think the more people involved, the more convoluted the story.
Something resonates in my mind and I will never forget it. No matter how prepared a murderer is and meticulous with the murder, there will always be a mistake made. I don't believe there is any such thing as a perfect murder.
 
ellen13 said:
It's interesting that PR and JR had lied so much about the day of their child's murder, but yet the only day in terms of facts SP could keep straight was the day he killed Laci (except for saying he golfed to some neighbors), he was pretty accurate again and again when questioned. I think it was easier for SP
to keep it straight more consistently was because he was the only one involved.
I think the more people involved, the more convoluted the story.
Something resonates in my mind and I will never forget it. No matter how prepared a murderer is and meticulous with the murder, there will always be a mistake made. I don't believe there is any such thing as a perfect murder.
Detectives will tell you that someone who is able to tell the same story over and over without change is probably telling a lie. People's memories are fallible. Especially when they are in the middle of a crisis.
 
tipper said:
Detectives will tell you that someone who is able to tell the same story over and over without change is probably telling a lie. People's memories are fallible. Especially when they are in the middle of a crisis.

Hmmm....seems to me the crisis was 4 months old when they were asked again and again about their daughter's murder. If they truly wanted to help, they would have done so before then. It's absolutely inexcusable.

I totally disagree with that first sentence. I am willing to bet there are millions upon millions of innocent people whose recollection of events never waivered.
 
Brefie said:
Hmmm....seems to me the crisis was 4 months old when they were asked again and again about their daughter's murder. If they truly wanted to help, they would have done so before then. It's absolutely inexcusable.

I totally disagree with that first sentence. I am willing to bet there are millions upon millions of innocent people whose recollection of events never waivered.
You can also find good information about memory and crisis in some of Ann Rule's books and Jeanne Boylan's "Portraits of Guilt."

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/33/1/71

[…]
There are at least two studies in patients with PTSD, however, showing an increase in memory distortion on so-called "false memory tasks."19,20 No study directly addresses the relationship between traumatic memories and recall accuracy. More recently, however, a prospective investigation of human eyewitness memory for highly stressful events indicates that under conditions of extreme stress, human memory is extremely poor.21

Related to the question of the accuracy of memory for traumatic events is a study showing that memories of traumatic events in Persian Gulf War veterans changed over time. This study was entered as scientific evidence that memory for traumatic events is inconsistent, and an author of the study, Dr. Charles A. Morgan, testified at the trial. The evidence for a conclusion that memory is more fallible in victims with PTSD (thus potentially negating the testimony of Witness A) that was outlined in the trial includes greater false recall on false memory tasks, deficits in hippocampal-based memory pointing to the possibility of hippocampal damage, and inconsistency of traumatic event recall. Southwick et al.22 and their research team conducted a set of studies demonstrating that memory of traumatic events is subject to considerable alteration over time. In the first study, Gulf War veterans were interviewed one month, two years, and six years after returning from the war.22 When requestioned the first time, combat veterans changed their answers to specific questions about their trauma exposure. The veterans were more likely to say, after being interviewed at a two-year point, that they had seen more trauma than originally described, rather than less. Although there was alteration in memory in nearly all subjects, the greatest changes were seen in veterans suffering from PTSD, and the more PTSD symptoms subjects had, the more they changed their answers. In the six-year follow-up study, alterations in memory (increase or decrease) were also significantly related to PTSD symptomatology.

All subjects were absolutely convinced that their answers were right, even though they changed their answers each time and were sure that each answer was correct. The answers provided by the subjects were considered "inconsistent" rather than "inaccurate," because the research team had no way of knowing which accounts were true. Separate studies by Roemer et al.23 and by North et al.24 have shown that many individuals with PTSD symptoms on one-year follow-up may deny symptoms they had previously endorsed. Roemer and associates23 reported that, while Gulf War veterans with and without PTSD were inconsistent when reporting trauma exposure, veterans with PTSD provided significantly more inconsistencies than people without PTSD. As in the study conducted by Southwick et al.,22 Roemer found that the more PTSD-type symptoms subjects endorsed, the more inconsistent they were when reporting traumatic events. Studies by Foa et al.25 and van der Kolk and Fisler26 also show that female rape victims may change their story to a significant degree and that memory in people who have highly stressful, life-threatening experiences may be "unorganized." It is possible that victims could become more consistent over time (but not necessarily more accurate) if they found a comfortable way of telling their stories (Ref. 1, Trial transcript, p 1009, November 10, 1998).
[…]
 
Thanks for the info, but the part I challenged was:

"Detectives will tell you that someone who is able to tell the same story over and over without change is probably telling a lie."
 
Brefie said:
Thanks for the info, but the part I challenged was:

"Detectives will tell you that someone who is able to tell the same story over and over without change is probably telling a lie."
I believe I first read that in either Small Sacrifices or The Stranger Beside Me. I will see if I can track it down.

Actual Innocence by Barry Scheck also has some good information about memory and stress.
 
Brefie said:
Thanks for the info, but the part I challenged was:

"Detectives will tell you that someone who is able to tell the same story over and over without change is probably telling a lie."

Actually, I remember hearing that they say they will tell the same story, but will expand on it. Say they remember the room was yellow or their was a cat in the room. They may not have remembered the color of the room, when initially questioned, or any of the other things in the room. A liar will say they were outside, then say they were inside. It's because the story they are telling is fiction. It didn't happen. That's what I believe is going on with the R's. Too many different stories, and they can't keep them straight.

Liars get tripped up when they are trying to remember something that did not happen. That's why I believe the R's know more than they are telling. Their statements (and actions) were all over the board. It's because I believe it was fiction. I think there were a few things that were true...like when one of them said, "this wasn't supposed to happen." And when John slipped and said he found JBR at 10:00. I think he did find her at 10:00. The second time was for the police.

I've told white lies, and gotten things crossed. The truth is the truth. Lies will get you every time. That's why I don't believe any of what the R's have to say. Too many different versions of what was going on.


I asked our local police chief about this and I'm good with what he told me. I suppose it really doesn't matter what he told me, or what the "detective" in whatever book said, the fact is, that the Ramsey's have told a lot of different stories, and I question that. And of course everything else they did. But in the end, they're going to have to answer to someone a lot higher up than us.
 
rashomon said:
I'm currently reading Steve's book, and I can't imagine a type like him manufacturing any evidence. So would you please name the kind of evidence he allegedly manufactured, and back it up with reliable sources. Thanks.


rashomon,

Okay, let's use this one. As we all know, Steve Thomas was out to nail Patsy Ramsey to the cross, but he didn't seem to have any nails (evidence), so here's how he went about it:

On June 1, 1998 at a VIP presentation to try to get an indictment against Patsy, here's how Steve presented the results of the CBI's handwriting analyses:

"The CBI examiners explained that of the 73 persons whose handwriting had been investigated, there was only one whose writing showed evidence that suggested authorship and had been in the home the night of the killing and could not be eliminated by no less than six document examiners -- Patsy Ramsey."

But Thomas' awkwardly phrased sentence is deceptive. Actually, there were only three people in the house that night, not 73. So all he is saying in that obfuscated sentence is that Patsy's handwriting resembled the handwriting in the ransom note more than did John's or Burke's writing, but Thomas presented it to look like Patsy's handwriting was closest to the writing in the ransom note than that of 73 suspects. He had taken the CBI's results and manufactured a result entirely different than that of the CBI.

The truth of the matter is that the six CBI analysts gave Patsy a score of 4.5 out of a possible 5.0, with 5.0 meaning elimination as the possible writer. The CBI declared that it was a very low probability that Patsy wrote the ransom note.

BlueCrab
 
There are numerous times when ST either does the awkward bit like Patsy's handwriting being the only one...which on a quick read sound like he is saying one thing but leaves himself plausible deniability.

There are also times where he says something because I think he never thought the truth would get out. For instance:

ST p 359
“John Ramsey went on a tirade about the Boulder cops even before Lou Smit began to question him.”

1998 interview.
1 LOU SMIT: Today's date is Tuesday the
2 23rd of June 1998. The time is right at 9 o'clock.
3 What I'd like to have done, and there's a lot of
4 people that aren't on the camera, and for voice
5 identification and everything, I'd like everyone
6 to identify themselves and I'll start with myself
7 and we'll just go clockwise. I'm Lou Smit. I'm an
8 investigator for the Boulder County District
9 Attorney's office. I've been working on this case
10 since March of 1996 -- 1997, I'm Sorry. So John?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: John Ramsey.
12 BRYAN MORGAN: I'm Bryan Morgan, and I'm
13 John's Lawyer.
14 DAVID WILLIAMS: David Williams, and I'm
15 an investigator for Bryan Morgan.
16 MIKE KANE: Michael Kane, and I'm Deputy
17 District Attorney in Boulder County.
18 LOU SMIT: Okay. First of all, as you all
19 know, this is being audio and video recorded. And
20 that's a -- I think a real good thing to do. The
21 video is in black and white and we do have real
22 good facilities for audio recording.
23 I'd like to just start out and ask, first of all,
24 I'm so used to calling you Mr. Ramsey. Is it okay
25 to call you John?
0004
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.
2 LOU SMIT: John, at this particular time,
3 do you have any medical problems at all that you
4 know of?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Are you under, taking any
7 medication?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Taking Prozac.
9 LOU SMIT: Okay.

Not until page 15 of the interview (after several questions and answers) does John Ramsey say “But our view is that the cruelty that was willfully imposed on us and our family by Boulder police was only exceeded by what the killer did to us.”

ST also fails to mention he was the one who claimed to Eller that, while in Atlanta, Mason was leaking to the press.
Mason Depo:
13 Q And during the course of the IA investigation, were you
14 able to determine why it was that you had been accused in
15 the first place? In other words, who had reported that you
16 might have leaked information to the media?
17 A It came out through the investigation that
18 then-Detective Steve Thomas was calling - -
[…]
6 A Detective Steve Thomas was calling then-Commander John
7 Eller several times a day, making progress reports, I guess
8 you -- would be a polite way of saying it, to Commander
9 Eller for what we were doing in Atlanta, what we were
10 accomplishing; and then also he was reporting to Commander
11 Eller my activities or my behavior or what he saw me doing
12 and who he saw me talking to.
13 Q Now, with respect to the internal affairs
14 investigation, you were ultimately cleared of that?
15 A Yes, I was.


Then there is Linda Arndt's view of ST.
From her depo:
24 A. A-L-I K-R-U-P-S-K-I, I think. I remember
25 her saying that a lot of people that she had talked to

Page 57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 in her investigation of the JonBenet murder refused to
2 talk to the Boulder Police Department because of the
3 way they were treated by the Boulder Police Department
4 and members of the investigative team.
5 Q. They refused to talk to her did you say?
6 A. They didn't want to talk to the police
7 department but these people.
8 Q. Wait. Start that over, because I lost it.
9 A. I lost it. The people, her sources, Ali's
10 sources, didn't want to talk to members of the Boulder
11 Police Department because of the treatment the Boulder
12 Police Department members had given people that they
13 were interviewing.
14 Q. So Ali's sources -
15 A. Let me finish.
16 Q. Yeah. I'm sorry.
17 A. And she specifically said that Steve Thomas
18 and Ron Gosage were strong-arming people and
19 roughhousing people, including herself, and the only
20 person at the police department her sources would talk
21 to or they would consider talking to would be me.
22 Q. So when she was referring to her sources,
23 these were witnesses to the investigation?
A24 A. My understanding, it was people she'd
25 talked to.

Page 58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Q. Who were witnesses to the conversation?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Okay. Do you recall the Rocky Mountain
4 News reporter you talked to?
5 A. Kevin McCullum. I don't know how to spell
6 his last name.
7 Q. C-U-L-L-U-M?




 
BlueCrab said:
rashomon,

Okay, let's use this one. As we all know, Steve Thomas was out to nail Patsy Ramsey to the cross, but he didn't seem to have any nails (evidence), so here's how he went about it:

On June 1, 1998 at a VIP presentation to try to get an indictment against Patsy, here's how Steve presented the results of the CBI's handwriting analyses:

"The CBI examiners explained that of the 73 persons whose handwriting had been investigated, there was only one whose writing showed evidence that suggested authorship and had been in the home the night of the killing and could not be eliminated by no less than six document examiners -- Patsy Ramsey."

But Thomas' awkwardly phrased sentence is deceptive. Actually, there were only three people in the house that night, not 73. So all he is saying in that obfuscated sentence is that Patsy's handwriting resembled the handwriting in the ransom note more than did John's or Burke's writing, but Thomas presented it to look like Patsy's handwriting was closest to the writing in the ransom note than that of 73 suspects. He had taken the CBI's results and manufactured a result entirely different than that of the CBI.

The truth of the matter is that the six CBI analysts gave Patsy a score of 4.5 out of a possible 5.0, with 5.0 meaning elimination as the possible writer. The CBI declared that it was a very low probability that Patsy wrote the ransom note.

BlueCrab
WRONG Bluecrab. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Thomas' statement. It comprises of three separate conditions connected with the boolean operator "AND":-

"The CBI examiners explained that of the 73 persons whose handwriting had been investigated, there was only one

whose writing showed evidence that suggested authorship AND had been in the home the night of the killing AND could not be eliminated by no less than six document examiners -- Patsy Ramsey."

Let's elaborate. There could be a table with the headings:-

1. who's writing showed evidence of authorship?
2. Who was in the house that night?
3. Who could not be eliminated by 6 document examiners?

Under each heading, there could be a list of names from a pool of 73. Seemingly Patsy was the only one who was under all three headings.

Nowhere does he suggest that 73 people were in the house that night - only that 73 people's handwriting had been investigated.
 
tipper said:
There are numerous times when ST either does the awkward bit like Patsy's handwriting being the only one...which on a quick read sound like he is saying one thing but leaves himself plausible deniability.
Steve Thomas' statement is perfectly in keeping with the results from a statistical analysis. It would not be considered awkward in the least by anyone who does market research for example.
 
Jayelles said:
Steve Thomas' statement is perfectly in keeping with the results from a statistical analysis. It would not be considered awkward in the least by anyone who does market research for example.

Jayelles,

True, Steve Thomas worded his report to allow an escape, but it nevertheless communicated a false impression of what the CBI's results statistically represented. I took statistics and advanced statistics in college (many moons ago) and a report worded as Steve Thomas' report would have been given a failing grade. It was intentionally convoluted to support a PDI theory that was wanting for evidence

Thomas' report wasn't directed at market research people; it was directed at the public. The national media was in attendance on June 1, 1998 along with Alex Hunter, the FBI, Dr. Henry Lee, Barry Scheck, etc. Thomas was apparently fired two weeks later but was allowed to save face by publicly resigning (with fanfare on JonBenet's birthday).

BlueCrab
 
Jayelles said:
[...]

Nowhere does he suggest that 73 people were in the house that night - only that 73 people's handwriting had been investigated.
Steve Thomas wanted to create the impression that Patsy's was the only one of 73/4 handwriting samples that couldn't be eliminated. And he succeeded.


http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0409rams1.shtml

Of 73 suspects whose writing samples were analyzed by experts along with the note, only Patsy Ramsey could not be excluded as its author, ABC quotes Thomas as saying. ABC released a portion of the interview Saturday.

http://www.acandyrose.com/04102000gma.htm

Vargas: (VO) Thomas says investigators interviewed 590 people, investigated and cleared more than 100 suspects and collected 1,058 pieces of evidence. But the trail always led back to one place. That epic ransom note. The note asked for $118,000 and claimed to be from a small foreign faction and was signed by the mysterious S.B.T.C. Three pages of crucial clues. Thomas says they checked handwriting samples from 73 potential suspects, but only one person could not be ruled out as the author.

Thomas: And that one person happens to be Patsy Ramsey.

Vargas: (VO) Thomas says there are several reasons why. Among them is handwriting.


Vanity Fair Article:
"Out of the 74 names submitted for testing, Patsy's handwriting was the only one that set off alarm bells," says an investigator closely involved with the testing of the ransom note.

But the truth was somethiing different.

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID61/1048.html
Transcript from November 27/01

Wood: And I think when you were asked about it, you said that that was close, the bottom line being that they placed the chances of her writing the note as I believe you described it as very low --
Hunter: Right.
Wood: -- is that right?
Hunter: Yes, very low.
Wood: And without asking for names, there were other individuals who were under suspicion whose handwriting was analyzed that were not eliminated as the author of the note; am I right?
Hunter: That's correct.
 
tipper said:
More recently, however, a prospective investigation of human eyewitness memory for highly stressful events indicates that under conditions of extreme stress, human memory is extremely poor.

But if that were so true as to be useful, then projects such as the oral histories of former slaves that the Library of Congress has, and the Shoah Project documenting the testimonies of survivors of the Holocaust, and all of the people who have lived through the traumas of the Oklahoma City bombing and 9/11 and documented their memories via online journals and interviews, all that is useless because nothing that is said, or even most of it, is extremly poor-quality information, right? Or are we to believe that finding your child dead in your own house is more stressful than personally watching groups of people jump from the top of the World Trade Center or starving in a concentration camp?

(I can remember hour by hour what happened to me here in New York City on 9/11, from the moment I first woke up a couple of hours before it all started happening. If asked, I will always tell the same sequence of events, because they are true. Truth does not change, therefore my story will not. What things I cannot remember, I never will remember. The same cannot be said of John and Patsy. who change their supposedly-remembered sequence of events several times, and mysteriously seem to remember things at a later date which end up being self-serving once they learn that it helps them if they remembered those things.)
 
You guys seem to be missing the point somewhat. It's not a case of "wanting to create the impressions that" or "wording his statement to allow an escape". We are talking about the laws of probability here. There are a number of conditional statements - i.e.:-

was in the house
could not be eliminated by 6 examiners
showed evidence of authorship

Each time one of the conditions tests true increaes the probability rating of the suspect.

Thomas was claiming that Patsy was the only person out of 73 for whom all of the conditional statements were true.
Like it or not, there is nothing wrong or devious about what Thomas said. The fact that Patsy was in the house obviously and significantly increases her probability rating, but that's the nature of the beast. We cannot just strike that factor out of the equation.

She had means and she had opportunity, she also could not be eliminated as the author of the note by no fewer than 6 examiners (according to Thomas).

Based upon those conditions, this made her the most likely of the 73 tested to have written the note.
 
Jayelles said:
You guys seem to be missing the point somewhat. It's not a case of "wanting to create the impressions that" or "wording his statement to allow an escape". We are talking about the laws of probability here. There are a number of conditional statements - i.e.:-

was in the house
could not be eliminated by 6 examiners
showed evidence of authorship

Each time one of the conditions tests true increaes the probability rating of the suspect.

Thomas was claiming that Patsy was the only person out of 73 for whom all of the conditional statements were true.
Like it or not, there is nothing wrong or devious about what Thomas said. The fact that Patsy was in the house obviously and significantly increases her probability rating, but that's the nature of the beast. We cannot just strike that factor out of the equation.

She had means and she had opportunity, she also could not be eliminated as the author of the note by no fewer than 6 examiners (according to Thomas).

Based upon those conditions, this made her the most likely of the 73 tested to have written the note.
In your opinion. In my opinion Thomas was trying to pull a fast one.
 
tipper said:
In your opinion. In my opinion Thomas was trying to pull a fast one.
So the guy states some facts and you think he is trying to pull a fast one? Hmmm.
 
why_nutt said:
But if that were so true as to be useful, then projects such as the oral histories of former slaves that the Library of Congress has, and the Shoah Project documenting the testimonies of survivors of the Holocaust, and all of the people who have lived through the traumas of the Oklahoma City bombing and 9/11 and documented their memories via online journals and interviews, all that is useless because nothing that is said, or even most of it, is extremly poor-quality information, right? Or are we to believe that finding your child dead in your own house is more stressful than personally watching groups of people jump from the top of the World Trade Center or starving in a concentration camp?

(I can remember hour by hour what happened to me here in New York City on 9/11, from the moment I first woke up a couple of hours before it all started happening. If asked, I will always tell the same sequence of events, because they are true. Truth does not change, therefore my story will not. What things I cannot remember, I never will remember. The same cannot be said of John and Patsy. who change their supposedly-remembered sequence of events several times, and mysteriously seem to remember things at a later date which end up being self-serving once they learn that it helps them if they remembered those things.)
You may not like the results of the study but they are what they are and they confirm other studies going back to 1902. Witnesses under stress have unreliable memories.

I wasn't with you on 9/11 so I have no idea if you memory would match mine. Have you been interrogated on your memory? Did you write down what happened at the time and compare it to other's versions. Did you re-write what you thought happened at a later date and then compare the two. From what you wrote it sounds like you have your memory, you've confirmed your memory is true, therefore memory under stress is reliable.

As I recall from the study cited, the soldiers were also very firm in their memories. Each and every time, even though it changed.
 
There are posters who are very protective of Steve Thomas. If they know where he is and what he is doing, they won't say on a public forum.
He needs to stay hidden.What he did to that family is hideous. Boulder Police gave fake leaks to media ,hid evidence,anyone that wanted to consider an alternative intruder were silenced,excluded from information or cut out of the case completely. They even tried to erase all of Smits,the best murder detective ,that they themselves asked to help ,destroyed. They hid evidence that exonerated Ramseys from Grand Jury !!! It was badly handled,botched.Police should have secured the house immediately, searched the house themselves,split up the Ramseys,talked to the boy then,taken the sheets from her bed,seen if a man could go thru the grate& window( one could) omg so many things.they even said the DNA was irrelevant. Smh If Smit had been left on the case he would have found the man that did this.
 
Ramsey NEVER left the house that morning.That was only one of the lies told by police!
 

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