Where the Avery Conspiracy Theory Falls Apart

[MaxManning]

I don't have the information to make determinations of competence or not. If there is evidence that will help prove the assertion that SA was framed or railroaded or whatever adjective, then it should be explored and fully vetted, yes. I'm all for thorough investigations, an honest exploration of the evidence and not making assumptions on either side.

So, if the bullet is found 6 months later in a garage that was searched already, are you at all suspicious ?

They weren't still investigating/searching that garage, they were done searching that garage for many months.

So if there was a bullet there, would competent people find that bullet and fragment that are laying out on the floor ? And casings that are out in the open.

be honest.

that's all.

If there is information that explains it all, then why wouldn't we all accept that ? But where is it ? I don't see it.

So, I'm suspicious still

 

[Soulmagent]

I don't have the information to make determinations of competence or not. If there is evidence that will help prove the assertion that SA was framed or railroaded or whatever adjective, then it should be explored and fully vetted, yes. I'm all for thorough investigations, an honest exploration of the evidence and not making assumptions on either side.

I was only giving you reasons as to why you should keep looking. Every piece of evidence can be explained simply on how they COULD have planted it. Not that they did but it is not impossible they didn't.I am even speculating as far as TH was not murdered . Most people are not as far as I can tell ,but I am extreme like that. Anyway , the fact that the case has 3 examples (as I have agreed with ) that shows the evidence is not what it seems and other people (besides my extreme self )think is "weird" such as the 7th day key and the tampered with evidence from 1985 , and the hood latch DNA issue with whole didn;t change his glove thing.

The key planting is enough for me. I believe that has been proven BYD . Photos show before and after. So I cannot give any benefit to either party but the evidence is pointing that every piece of evidence in this case had to have been known about and the only thing lacking is the items that you expect to be there .

 

[MaxManning]

I think it's more likely than not that he's guilty but that is not how the criminal courts are supposed to work. Last person to see them alive is where they start looking for a reason. So last one to see her alive, had an appt. with her, remains found on his property all point to him. I am not considering the key or bullet in this because I have no idea if those are real or fabricated. It also points to anyone living on the property, who apparently all got free passes on any real investigation. I don't know if he's guilty or not. I guess at this point, I'm 55/ 45 guilty/ innocent. I just wish he'd get another trial . I do think finding anyone to serve on a jury NOW without an opinion about the case will be very , very hard. Maybe they should just take it to a judge now. mooo

I am closer to 90/10 on Avery being guilty at the moment. Still have reasonable doubt.

But I don't understand how people can't see the reason for suspicion in this case.

The police department even voluntarily gave another police department the lead , because they understood the conflict.

So when they go about finding all the key evidence in an investigation they wanted the public to think they weren't leading -- why wouldn't people be suspicious?

it is suspicious!

Doesn't mean Steve's innocent, but it does mean they made this bed of suspicion by not stepping aside and getting involved to the point of finding key evidence -- some of it 6 months later!

 

[Soulmagent]

I think it's more likely than not that he's guilty but that is not how the criminal courts are supposed to work. Last person to see them alive is where they start looking for a reason. So last one to see her alive, had an appt. with her, remains found on his property all point to him. I am not considering the key or bullet in this because I have no idea if those are real or fabricated. It also points to anyone living on the property, who apparently all got free passes on any real investigation. I don't know if he's guilty or not. I guess at this point, I'm 55/ 45 guilty/ innocent. I just wish he'd get another trial . I do think finding anyone to serve on a jury NOW without an opinion about the case will be very , very hard. Maybe they should just take it to a judge now. mooo

If you are not considering those important facts, which were used to convict him ,and do not consider what is fabricated or real , then I cannot understand your position . The criminal justice system creates their own experts. Think about that for a minute. They create their own experts.

 

[Madeleine74]

Who found SA's blood in TH's car? I consider that some important evidence.

Who found TH's body parts in SA's fire pit & burn barrel? That might be the most important evidence of all because that's proof she was killed and an attempt was made to obscure/obliterate her altogether.

Who found TH's cell phone, camera, and PDA burned in the burn barrel?

Those things place her and her things at the last place she visited that day. I don't believe she was killed and burned elsewhere and then brought back to the Avery Salvage Yard.

 

[MaxManning]

Who found SA's blood in TH's car? I consider that some important evidence.

Who found TH's body parts in SA's fire pit & burn barrel? That might be the most important evidence of all because that's proof she was killed and an attempt was made to obscure/obliterate her altogether.

Who found TH's cell phone, camera, and PDA burned in the burn barrel?

Those things place her and her things at the last place she visited that day. I don't believe she was killed and burned elsewhere and then brought back to the Avery Salvage Yard.

If Manitowoc county/Lenk wasn't person who had access to the blood tube and wasn't a part of the investigation, all blood evidence wouldn't be suspicious.

If there wasn't evidence of bones being moved, would anyone be suspicious ?

If the bones were moved, why couldn't the phone, camera, pda be moved also ?

If we just assume no evidence was planted , then everything you say is perfectly logical.

But how can someone be expected to assume that now, when we have suspicious circumstances ?

Mind you, that if the same police dept hadn't been involved in the rape conviction, I doubt I'd be nearly as suspicious. Yes, I see it as a huge conflict of interests, considering that case and how it was FACTUALLY a case of ignoring credible suspect from other law enforcement body. - involving the SAME individual nonetheless

 

[Soulmagent]

Who found SA's blood in TH's car? I consider that some important evidence.

Who found TH's body parts in SA's fire pit & burn barrel? That might be the most important evidence of all because that's proof she was killed and an attempt was made to obscure/obliterate her altogether.

Who found TH's cell phone, camera, and PDA burned in the burn barrel?

Those things place her and her things at the last place she visited that day. I don't believe she was killed and burned elsewhere and then brought back to the Avery Salvage Yard.

I dont think she was killed , I think she could be in TX living under the last name Geske. But thats just me.

 

[Tawny]

Who found SA's blood in TH's car? I consider that some important evidence.

Who found TH's body parts in SA's fire pit & burn barrel? That might be the most important evidence of all because that's proof she was killed and an attempt was made to obscure/obliterate her altogether.

Who found TH's cell phone, camera, and PDA burned in the burn barrel?

Those things place her and her things at the last place she visited that day. I don't believe she was killed and burned elsewhere and then brought back to the Avery Salvage Yard.

A forensics expert stated that if there are bones in multiple places, the location with the majority of bones is where those bones were moved TO, not FROM.

 

[missy1974]

I dont think she was killed , I think she could be in TX living under the last name Geske. But thats just me.

ok I'll bite.... why do you think that?

I do think she was killed that day, I think there would have to be a major conspiracy with all persons involved if she is still alive and living under another name. JMO

 

[MaxManning]

A forensics expert stated that if there are bones in multiple places, the location with the majority of bones is where those bones were moved TO, not FROM.

That's a good point, and I've heard others mention this. What kind of sense does it make to take a few bones and go move them to another area of the property? Think about that.

I could understand if he moved the to a less conspicuous place, like in that big ol gravel pit, buried deep somehow.

But to move a few to another location. why ?

Makes far more sense that they were somewhere else and whoever moved them, oops... missed a few.

very logical.

 

[MaxManning]

ok I'll bite.... why do you think that?

I do think she was killed that day, I think there would have to be a major conspiracy with all persons involved if she is still alive and living under another name. JMO

I was curious about this , because I believe the teeth identification was not conclusive, but rather to a degree of certainty.

So, why couldn't someone ditch even one tooth ? The bones themselves are only thought to be TH because of that tooth..


Craziness, huh ?

Of course she needs to plant some blood evidence etc in the rav4. Not sure if we have a estimation of how much was believed to be found in the rav4. If it's a relatively small amount, it's doable. right ?

 

[SCHMAE]

If you are not considering those important facts, which were used to convict him ,and do not consider what is fabricated or real , then I cannot understand your position . The criminal justice system creates their own experts. Think about that for a minute. They create their own experts.

I am saying without those pieces of ' physical ' evidence, the circumstantial evidence is moderately compelling on its own. I understand the jury used those pieces to arrive at their verdict probably but they don't know what we do know now about that evidence being possibly planted. The circumstantial case on its own is not enough to convict imho , which is why the idea that key pieces might be planted seems more possible.

 

[MaxManning]

What were all the locations the bones were found ? Was it 2 or 3 ? And was it confirmed that the bones were from the same body ?

I have seen people say they were all from same body, but I haven't seen a confirmation of that scientifically.

 

[Soulmagent]

ok I'll bite.... why do you think that?

I do think she was killed that day, I think there would have to be a major conspiracy with all persons involved if she is still alive and living under another name. JMO

I said she could be. Nothing shows me that she is really deceased. DNA from one tooth. I mean is Avery that smooth? no finger prints or blood. No DNA in his house but the tags are in a junk car? No murder weapon or blood yet a bullet in his garage ? No body ,yet incinerated bones are found a few yards from the unused incinerator ? Add to that his tampered with blood evidence and the key..

This really seems like a case that was planned out but didnt work out exactly like it was supposed to ..

Meaning it was supposed to go
1 missing girl
2 find her car.
3 bone found in incinerator.
4 dna in in car
5 blood in rav 4
6 key in bedroom.
Conviction
And really that is their case.

Except 3 wasnt possible because of heavy LE activity and 5 was messed up by the discovery of the tampered with evidence in the clerk office.

 

[MaxManning]

I place quite a bit more weight on how TH ended up there that day than most I think. Which is why I am 90/10. I also don't believe the manufactured image of SA is who he really is. Any very small bit of evidence pointing away from him , could swing me quickly away from that 90. So my 90 is based on what I believe to be true in regards to evidence.

That 10 percent is things like moving of the bones, Chuck Avery, Earl Avery, and the ex boyfriend. With very little new evidence I could see myself swinging away to another person. But to do that, I have to accept that planting HAD to happen. So that's why I say 10 percent. I think at this point I am 90% convinced there was no planting.

 

[MaxManning]

I said she could be. Nothing shows me that she is really deceased. DNA from one tooth. I mean is Avery that smooth? no finger prints or blood. No DNA in his house but the tags are in a junk car? No murder weapon or blood yet a bullet in his garage ? No body ,yet incinerated bones are found a few yards from the unused incinerator ? Add to that his tampered with blood evidence and the key..

This really seems like a case that was planned out but didnt work out exactly like it was supposed to ..

Meaning it was supposed to go
1 missing girl
2 find her car.
3 bone found in incinerator.
4 dna in in car
5 blood in rav 4
6 key in bedroom.
Conviction
And really that is their case.

Except 3 wasnt possible because of heavy LE activity and 5 was messed up by the discovery of the tampered with evidence in the clerk office.

I didn't even know about the incinerator. How do we know it was unused ? Where is that described?

Very interesting!

 

[Soulmagent]

I place quite a bit of weight on how TH ended up there that day than most I think. Which is why I am 90/10. I also don't believe the manufactured image of SA is who he really is. Any very small bit of evidence pointing away from him , could swing me quickly away from that 90. So my 90 is based on what I believe to be true in regards to evidence.

That 10 percent is things like moving of the bones, Chuck Avery, Earl Avery, and the ex boyfriend. With very little new evidence I could see myself swinging away to another person. But to do that, I have to accept that planting HAD to happen. So that's why I say 10 percent. I think at this point I am 90% certain there was no planting.

Not even the key?
90 percent and no explanation for why the seal was broken on the box holding the blood?

 

[Madeleine74]

I am saying without those pieces of ' physical ' evidence, the circumstantial evidence is moderately compelling on its own. I understand the jury used those pieces to arrive at their verdict probably but they don't know what we do know now about that evidence being possibly planted. The circumstantial case on its own is not enough to convict imho , which is why the idea that key pieces might be planted seems more possible.

Circumstantial Evidence is everything except an eye witness to the crime, a confession by the perp, or a video of the crime being committed. So those 3 things are called "Direct Evidence."

By legal definition everything that is not "direct evidence," including blood, hair, fibers, a body or parts of a body, DNA, statements, footprints, fingerprints is "circumstantial evidence."

The vast majority of cases are circumstantial. It was direct evidence (not circumstantial) that was used to wrongly convict SA in his first case. Incorrect eye witness identification. It was circumstantial evidence (DNA match of forensic evidence to the real perp) that exonerated him.

Ironic, eh?

Circumstantial cases are often the strongest and most compelling as they typically are comprised of not just 1 piece of evidence, but many pieces of evidence that when viewed together in context, form a picture that shows the identity of the perp(s).

 

[Soulmagent]

I didn't even know about the incinerator. How do we know it was unused ? Where is that described?

Very interesting!

Reread my post.

 

[missy1974]

I said she could be. Nothing shows me that she is really deceased. DNA from one tooth. I mean is Avery that smooth? no finger prints or blood. No DNA in his house but the tags are in a junk car? No murder weapon or blood yet a bullet in his garage ? No body ,yet incinerated bones are found a few yards from the unused incinerator ? Add to that his tampered with blood evidence and the key..

This really seems like a case that was planned out but didnt work out exactly like it was supposed to ..

Meaning it was supposed to go
1 missing girl
2 find her car.
3 bone found in incinerator.
4 dna in in car
5 blood in rav 4
6 key in bedroom.
Conviction
And really that is their case.

Except 3 wasnt possible because of heavy LE activity and 5 was messed up by the discovery of the tampered with evidence in the clerk office.

Ok.... I can understand your reasoning for thinking she is still alive, but you were more specific in saying in TX under the name Geske. What makes you think that?