Who Could Get Kyron Out of School More Easily (Unseen)? Terri or another person?

[BeanE]

steadfast - Did you find any links about these quotes? i searched and couldn't find a link that states - No one saw her (terri) leaving alone.

and i couldn't find a quote where LE says that Terri was not seen at the school after she was seen with Kyron either.

Calliope posted up in this thread that she thinks we don't know this is true either. (re: the first quote)

Maybe they are rumors. I'll check the rumor thread and see if the info is there. edit: the rumor thread was locked back in june. I didn't realize that. sorry.

MSM news article of someone seeing Terri leave the building, without Kyron:

T says Kyron was in school for at least an hour Friday morning and that he saw Kyron's step-mother leave the school without Kyron.

This link is to one of our Today's News threads where I originally posted the article. It's in the Reference Forum.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5272107&postcount=20"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Kyron Horman - Portland, Oregon MEDIA AND IMAGES LINKS[/ame]


Regarding Kyron:

"The last time this child was seen was inside the school and was never seen leaving the school," Staton told CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/11/oregon.missing.boy/index.html?section=cnn_latest

If anyone has anything more recent or any updates to those quotes, I'd appreciate it you'd post it.

 

[MidsomerFan]

I believe TH is responsible for whatever befell Kyron. But this aspect of the case has always bothered me. Sure, TH could have easily taken Kyron quickly and quietly from the school without being noticed. I think another person, whether stranger or not, could have as well because Kyron was known as a quiet, shy child. best kind of kid for a predator to snatch because they don't fight.
However, assuming TH set this up, it makes little sense because even though she (if guilty) got him out of there, possibly unnoticed, how could she have known no one would see her? She couldn't. Very risky plan IMO.
Nevertheless, it would be even riskier for a stranger because if spotted, someone could try to stop him, he could be caught. But if someone spotted TH and she was aware that they did, she could simply abort the plan and say she was taking Kyron to the doctors.
In any event, I believe that eventually we will find out how it happened. I also believe we will find that somehow, it was TH who did it or arranged it.

You're right -- it was risky - that's why I wondered if TH had a "lookout" accomplice parked in the south lot - checking out if anyone noticed TH or little Kyron leaving, heading for the white pickup parked on the access road (after the groundskeeper left). I wondered if the last presser requesting accountability of all the parked cars wasn't a "rule-out" situation - LE was trying to rule out a car that was seen parked there, but was not accounted for (DDS blue Ford Explorer perhaps?). DDS did not report to her job until 9am - which would have given her plenty of time to "watch TH's back" from the south lot when TH left at 9:45am. I wonder if folks familiar with the school could say whether someone parked in the south lot could watch TH as I'm suggesting? JMO, thanks!

 

[jadejazzkayla]

IMO, Kyron could get himself out unseen, if he was told which door to use when. Risky, but he could do it. LE searched for around 10 days on that theory.

I don't think we know if Le's theory was that he was told which door to go out without been seen by a would be kidnapper.

I thought LE was searching around the school in case kyron wandered out of the school on his own and something bad happened to him - but of course that could be wrong too.

 

[BeanE]

IMO, Kyron could get himself out unseen, if he was told which door to use when. Risky, but he could do it. LE searched for around 10 days on that theory.

BBM. Could we have the link for that, please, Emma? Or could you clarify if that is your opinion?

TIA

 

[Chili Fries]

MSM news article of someone seeing Terri leave the building, without Kyron:

T says Kyron was in school for at least an hour Friday morning and that he saw Kyron's step-mother leave the school without Kyron.

This link is to one of our Today's News threads where I originally posted the article. It's in the Reference Forum.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Kyron Horman - Portland, Oregon MEDIA AND IMAGES LINKS


Regarding Kyron:

"The last time this child was seen was inside the school and was never seen leaving the school," Staton told CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/11/oregon.missing.boy/index.html?section=cnn_latest

If anyone has anything more recent or any updates to those quotes, I'd appreciate it you'd post it.

BeanE to be precise it was the reporter who said that Tr's grandmother said Tr told her he saw Terri leaving the building and Kyron was not with her.

]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tAZ1FmHtcI

(I'm not linking directly to the video because when I do it shows the video in this post and includes the minor's name)

 

[Emma Peel]

I don't think we know if Le's theory was that he was told which door to go out without been seen by a would be kidnapper.

I thought LE was searching around the school in case kyron wandered out of the school on his own and something bad happened to him - but of course that could be wrong too.

BBM. Could we have the link for that, please, Emma? Or could you clarify if that is your opinion?

TIA

My referenced post says IMO. First 3 letters. "IMO" is a widely used WS acronym that means "In My Opinion", for those that might not realize that. The post is 3 short sentences long. This is an opinion thread. This explanation is now officially longer than my post. So, I'll wrap it up now. :angel:

ETA: oh no, hang on. I see further clarification required. I did not mean LE had a theory that Kyron walked out to his abductor on his own, (although they might have). Rather, LE's 10 day (or so) search at the very beginning indicates a theory that Kyron walked out/left school under his own power ... unseen ... and got lost in the woods...was considered. Hoping that does it for clarifications. Impressive what I mess up in 3 sentences, isn't it? Carry on!

 

[lynmaree]

I understand the concept of hiding in plain site - but I can't get that a person would count on that during a heinous kidnapping. And then to have it actually work - in that Terri walked out with kyron and his face plastered over the news pretty quickly and no one remembers seeing them. I just can't get past that.

o/t if Terri did hid in plain site and walked out with kyron and no one noticed - even if they had witnessed it the previous day - how likely would it be that any witnesses who saw terri or the truck on june 4th that they would be able to identify either from a flyer distributed two weeks later on june 18th. or could say they saw terri the truck or dd from a flyer distributed 9 weeks later on aug 9th. but of course everyone has different memory capabilities.

JADE...you are 100% correct, this is the part of my theory that slows me down every time!! How could T have COUNTED ON not being seen? And if she had been planning this for some time that seems a gamble she wouldnt have been willing to take...

The exit from the school and the limited number and length of the holes in her time frame are the things that threaten to send me back up on the fence about her....I feel in my heart that she is culpable just cant seem to piece together the hows...thats may be why LE is so adamant about corraborating the accomplice theory...it may be the only way all of this is plausible...Im sticking with my "theory of twos"---two red heads, two trucks, two FMs, two parking places etc....so wish we could get ansers to some of the smaller details like type of meds for Baby and parking lot at gym having cameras or not....
:banghead:

 

[Kimster]

Honestly, after walking around that school, seeing the access road (the wire "gate" is right at the track, so the vehicle wouldn't have pulled up to the top of the hill), and the foliage around, I can't see any way that Kyron could have left that school without being seen. I really do believe LE has information that we don't know about and it is huge.

 

[lynmaree]

Honestly, after walking around that school, seeing the access road (the wire "gate" is right at the track, so the vehicle wouldn't have pulled up to the top of the hill), and the foliage around, I can't see any way that Kyron could have left that school without being seen. I really do believe LE has information that we don't know about and it is huge.

LOVE the fact that your eyes are physically seeing these sites and details....trust your instincts and respect your posts....have you been to the gym? Does it look like there are cameras facing the parking lots?

 

[ami]

To me it is common sense that a person kidnapping a 7 year old child without an 18 month old tagging along would have an easier job than someone with a toddler tagging along.

unless of course the perpetrator had a couple of kids tagging along with them

If it was Terri removing Kyron from school, it was nothing more or less than she's done every day she's parented him and nothing more than a million parents do every day when they have a multiple children. Kidnapping is difficult when the child needs to be restrained or quieted or taken somewhere against their will. When the kidnapper is a parent, they just can just say "time to go". No need for two hands to grab or carry - the child walks. The 18 month old is used to seeing her brother walking along with Mom and there's nothing out of the ordinary to require extra effort on the parents' part.

first bbm...i just can't imagine anyone who would kidnap a child - knowing kyron's face would be all over the news by the next day - thinking that no one would remember them.

second bbm....i also can't buy that a kidnapper would trust a 7 year to "not be seen" waiting at an exit door. "hey kyron, why are you standing near that exit door.?"

In either case - witnesses would only have to think back to the previous day and if someone remembered anything - the gig would be up.

IMO, in one scenario Terri could be walking with Kyron down the hall, maybe pause to look at some classroom artwork hanging there, wait until the hallway and side door area is empty and then tell K, "Okay, doctors appointment - I parked out front today so we'll go out this way - " and then he walks out the door and she's sure no one saw him from the inside. Or - she tells him, "okay, doctor's appointment - I parked out front today so we'll go out this way - run out to the truck and I'll be right there as soon as I change baby K" and then she waits until he's clear and then walks out a different door, saying goodbye to someone on the way.

That's one scenario, I'm sure there are many scenarios in which a person could have a willing, trusting child leave by a side door after making sure there was no traffic in the hallway, and then exiting separately.

 

[ami]

Honestly, after walking around that school, seeing the access road (the wire "gate" is right at the track, so the vehicle wouldn't have pulled up to the top of the hill), and the foliage around, I can't see any way that Kyron could have left that school without being seen. I really do believe LE has information that we don't know about and it is huge.

You must be right - I've tried to come up with scenarios in which Kyron could leave without anyone on the inside seeing him or noticing him, but what about outside the building? No one looking out a window, or a car window, or glancing over at just the wrong (right) moment?

And even if that happened it would be luck or chance -not something that could be counted upon ahead of time as part of a plan.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Stranger or family member, there is no way that someone could no for sure they could take Kyron out of the school without being seen. Especially on a busy, chaotic day with hundreds of parents and kids around. I really am perplexed as to how not one person (except possibly another child) saw 1. Kyron leave alone, 2. Kyron leave with someone, 3. Kyron leave with TH, 4. TH leave the school alone, 5. TH getting into her truck and leaving alone, 6. Kyron getting into someones vehicle -- and besides possibly telling a child he was going to see the electric project and possibly being seen in the gym by another child, how was it he wasn't seen anywhere else? With other children? With other adults?

Maybe he was there very, very briefly. Just long enough to take pics? But then, how did he get out and presumably into a vehicle unseen????

 

[YellowSubmarine]

If it was Terri removing Kyron from school, it was nothing more or less than she's done every day she's parented him and nothing more than a million parents do every day when they have a multiple children. Kidnapping is difficult when the child needs to be restrained or quieted or taken somewhere against their will. When the kidnapper is a parent, they just can just say "time to go". No need for two hands to grab or carry - the child walks. The 18 month old is used to seeing her brother walking along with Mom and there's nothing out of the ordinary to require extra effort on the parents' part.



IMO, in one scenario Terri could be walking with Kyron down the hall, maybe pause to look at some classroom artwork hanging there, wait until the hallway and side door area is empty and then tell K, "Okay, doctors appointment - I parked out front today so we'll go out this way - " and then he walks out the door and she's sure no one saw him from the inside. Or - she tells him, "okay, doctor's appointment - I parked out front today so we'll go out this way - run out to the truck and I'll be right there as soon as I change baby K" and then she waits until he's clear and then walks out a different door, saying goodbye to someone on the way.

That's one scenario, I'm sure there are many scenarios in which a person could have a willing, trusting child leave by a side door after making sure there was no traffic in the hallway, and then exiting separately.

Excellent thought! I have long thought that if TH did this, they didn't walk out of the school together. Either she went first and had him meet her outside or, as you said, had him go first.

This brings me to wonder if he was told to get into a different vehicle. So, that way if someone did see Kyron getting into a car, TH could distance herself from it -- He was seen getting into a *blue car* at 9:10-9:15, couldn't have been TH, she was checking out at FM at 9:12. TH could easily have said "meet so-and-so outside the gym door" and then they meet up at . . . . . . FM, Starbucks?

 

[desquire]

Honestly, after walking around that school, seeing the access road (the wire "gate" is right at the track, so the vehicle wouldn't have pulled up to the top of the hill), and the foliage around, I can't see any way that Kyron could have left that school without being seen. I really do believe LE has information that we don't know about and it is huge.

I think the reason I suspected TH from the beginning is that it's just so incredibly implausible that a stranger would attempt to abduct a kid from a school, it's just way too unnecessarily risky, whereas a parent could walk out with a kid or get the kid to walk out on his own without raising any suspicion at all.
For me that's why the truck on the access road is huge. If true, it's really the only piece of circumstantial evidence we've seen so far that would point to TH. It sounds like they have one witness to the truck being there but for some reason that witness is shakey so they are making the public plea for others (and given the field day a defense lawyer will have with the suggestive effect of those photos on a witness 2-months after the fact, it seems like a desparate plea). IF LE also has a witness seeing Kyron going out the side door or walking on the track toward the street, those two pieces taken together make a pretty compelling circumstantial case against TH. Without such a sighting of Kyron (and if, as you say, it's unlikely someone couldexit that route without being seen on a morning when lots of folks are out and about the school), a shakey witness regarding the truck on the access road doesn't amount to much of a case.

 

[gitana1]

steadfast - Did you find any links about these quotes? i searched and couldn't find a link that states - No one saw her (terri) leaving alone.

and i couldn't find a quote where LE says that Terri was not seen at the school after she was seen with Kyron either.

Calliope posted up in this thread that she thinks we don't know this is true either. (re: the first quote)

Maybe they are rumors. I'll check the rumor thread and see if the info is there. edit: the rumor thread was locked back in june. I didn't realize that. sorry.

LE has said that TH was the last person to see Kyron. I think from that we can deduce that no one saw Kyron after TH left. We may also be able to deduce from that that no one saw TH actually get in her truck and drive away without Kyron.

JADE...you are 100% correct, this is the part of my theory that slows me down every time!! How could T have COUNTED ON not being seen? And if she had been planning this for some time that seems a gamble she wouldnt have been willing to take...

The exit from the school and the limited number and length of the holes in her time frame are the things that threaten to send me back up on the fence about her....I feel in my heart that she is culpable just cant seem to piece together the hows...thats may be why LE is so adamant about corraborating the accomplice theory...it may be the only way all of this is plausible...Im sticking with my "theory of twos"---two red heads, two trucks, two FMs, two parking places etc....so wish we could get ansers to some of the smaller details like type of meds for Baby and parking lot at gym having cameras or not....
:banghead:

I actually agree with you but I will play devil's advocate for a moment: Most people who commit crimes are usually more brazen and confident about what they are doing than normal people would be. I would be shaking in my boots if I had to carry out such a plan. But many criminals feel very cool and collected, some just excited. Also, many criminals think they are smarter than everyone else and thus make mistakes or act a bit sloppy thinking no one will pick up on it.
In any event, i think we are all spinning our wheels a bit. We just don't have enough info to figure it all out...yet.

 

[gitana1]

I think the reason I suspected TH from the beginning is that it's just so incredibly implausible that a stranger would attempt to abduct a kid from a school, it's just way too unnecessarily risky, whereas a parent could walk out with a kid or get the kid to walk out on his own without raising any suspicion at all.
For me that's why the truck on the access road is huge. If true, it's really the only piece of circumstantial evidence we've seen so far that would point to TH. It sounds like they have one witness to the truck being there but for some reason that witness is shakey so they are making the public plea for others (and given the field day a defense lawyer will have with the suggestive effect of those photos on a witness 2-months after the fact, it seems like a desparate plea). IF LE also has a witness seeing Kyron going out the side door or walking on the track toward the street, those two pieces taken together make a pretty compelling circumstantial case against TH. Without such a sighting of Kyron (and if, as you say, it's unlikely someone couldexit that route without being seen on a morning when lots of folks are out and about the school), a shakey witness regarding the truck on the access road doesn't amount to much of a case.

I am positive TH did whatever was done to Kyron. But, I don't think it is implausible for a stranger to snatch a child from school. These creeps get off on the thrill of the hunt. They steal kids from their own beds, in their own homes, why not a school? I would think it would make more sense psychologically for a nut like this to try snatching a kid from school than for a parent to plan to disappear a child this way with the risk of someone seeing something and recognizing him or her.
I can imagine some sicko in a growing fever pitch of excitement at the thought of getting a kid, roaming around and seeing a school with lots of children milling about. Then, pulling in and spying a target.
I went to my law partner's kids' school right before Kyron disappeared. She was being bullied and I wanted to give her support, bring her Micky Ds and hang out with her at lunch, let her know she is loved. I asked my law partner and his wife if i had to check in at that particular school and the wife thought I could just walk right in to the lunch area. Which i did. I stood watching the kids play until the little girl saw me and ran over. I then ate with the kids and no one said boo to me. There seemed to be two staff members for a huge mess of kids and one never even glanced at me. She was too busy circling the yard pretending to work. The second worker came up near me to hustle kids through their lunch to make it in time for the bell. Looked briefly at me but said nothing. Kids at school seem drawn to new adults and I had about four little girls sitting around me, besides my friend's kid. I could have easily walked away with one. Just tell them, "Hey, you need to come with me to the principal's office for a moment." Which is at the entrance and had windows covered with blinds at the time. And then just grab her hand and keep walking. Kids are trained to obey adults and predators know this. So, I do believe it is very possible for a stranger to try and succeed at taking a child from school. I just don't believe that is what happened in Kyron's case.

 

[BeanE]

BeanE to be precise it was the reporter who said that Tr's grandmother said Tr told her he saw Terri leaving the building and Kyron was not with her.

]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tAZ1FmHtcI

(I'm not linking directly to the video because when I do it shows the video in this post and includes the minor's name)

Yes. I don't think I indicated otherwise.

 

[cypress]

Honestly, after walking around that school, seeing the access road (the wire "gate" is right at the track, so the vehicle wouldn't have pulled up to the top of the hill), and the foliage around, I can't see any way that Kyron could have left that school without being seen. I really do believe LE has information that we don't know about and it is huge.

This question is specifically for you, Kimster, but anyone who agrees with Kimster feel free to answer.

If LE had a witness or witnesses who saw Kyron leaving with Terri that day, why would LE not arrest her?

I just can't get past this when considering whether or not LE has a witness or witnesses who saw him leave with her (I don't believe they have any such witness).

 

[MarieFaith]

I agree that it would be far easier for a parent to walk out of the school with a child, especially a small school, than for a stranger to do that. And, especially on a busy morning as it was with the science fair. Someone could have seen them, but not really noticed them. There's a difference. Especially since she was a trusted volunteer who people were used to seeing.

If Terri wasn't watching herself to see if someone seemed to be paying attention to her leaving with Kyron, then someone else could have been doing that for her. And if she had been seen, she could just continue, and say later that Kyron had been snatched from her, or she just turned her head and he was suddenly gone, etc.
'
Or inside the school she could have said something like this:..."Kyron, I'm going on out to the truck to change baby's diaper before we go to the doctor...(or wherever). Do you need to go to the bathroom first? Well, honey, go try, anyway. The truck's out front (or out back, whatever.) I've already checked you out in the office."

 

[MarieFaith]

This question is specifically for you, Kimster, but anyone who agrees with Kimster feel free to answer.

If LE had a witness or witnesses who saw Kyron leaving with Terri that day, why would LE not arrest her?

I just can't get past this when considering whether or not LE has a witness or witnesses who saw him leave with her (I don't believe they have any such witness).

Perhaps they are also trying to get the goods on another person or persons, and don't want to arrest Terri until that happens.

Is it true that in Oregon, once a person is arrested they have to be brought to trial in 60 days? If so, they need an air-tight case. And as long as she is free, she is free to make mistakes or crack (in spite of her expensive lawyer).

And, someone correct if I'm wrong, once she's arrested all their evidence has to be made public, and there could be many reasons why they don't want that yet.