Who do you think is guilty? I'm relatively new here and...

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Fibers sourced to John were found located in JB's pubic area. The lie about JB having fallen asleep in the car and John having carried her to bed provides an explanation for close physical contact between John and JB. It was Burke who told detectives JonBenet was awake upon arriving home and that she walked up the stairs.
 
Swirlz I agree with your posts.

Burke had no reason to lie about her walking up the stairs. Plus her hair was done in odd little piggy tails. Patsy doesn't mention her hair at all when she talks about the undressing into the long johns etc... Also didn't that family friend say she saw a normal, happy, family as they drove off after Patsy dropped off the last Christmas gift? Not that JB was zonked out in the backseat sleeping so deeply that she wouldn't wake when pulled out and carried upstairs.

Getting back to your point though, If JR and PR were covering Burke after killing his sister, there would be no reason to make up the 'sleeping in car' lie, they could have easily just said she walked up slowly, very tired and Patsy helped her change then fell straight to sleep.
 
"People subconsciously cannot fathom a family member to do such terrible things. "

Add rich, white Boulderite.

Still a mistake to go with accident over premeditation.

I agree that hit on the head was not an "accident" If you hit someone hard enough to split their skull; you meant it. IMO that couldn't happen in a tub or any kind of accident.
 
Swirlz I agree with your posts.

Burke had no reason to lie about her walking up the stairs. Plus her hair was done in odd little piggy tails. Patsy doesn't mention her hair at all when she talks about the undressing into the long johns etc... Also didn't that family friend say she saw a normal, happy, family as they drove off after Patsy dropped off the last Christmas gift? Not that JB was zonked out in the backseat sleeping so deeply that she wouldn't wake when pulled out and carried upstairs.

Getting back to your point though, If JR and PR were covering Burke after killing his sister, there would be no reason to make up the 'sleeping in car' lie, they could have easily just said she walked up slowly, very tired and Patsy helped her change then fell straight to sleep.

Veronica Lodge,
Burke had no reason to lie about her walking up the stairs.
If the case were BDI you might think Burke would be motivated to get his story correct? Does he tell us JonBenet walked into the house because he has not been briefed on what came before?

Plus her hair was done in odd little piggy tails. Patsy doesn't mention her hair at all when she talks about the undressing into the long johns etc...
Sure, one ponytail on top of her head, one further down. Meaning someone dressed her hair before bed and I'll bet it was neither Burke or John?

BPD have photographs from the White's Christmas Party so they know if JonBenet had her hair up in ponytails.

IMO JonBenet made it to a bedroom, probably her own, after snacking on the pineapple, suggesting Patsy was wanting the kids early to bed?

Patsy and John likely pursued whatever they thought was important at this juncture. The unanswered question is did Patsy look in on JonBenet before she went to bed, since the next time she looks JonBenet will be in a coma?

As part of any PDI staging Patsy forgets about the pineapple snack in the breakfast bar, that JonBenet is wearing size-12's, and her hair is dressed in ponytails !

I reckon Boulder Police think they know who whacked JonBenet, but do not have a smoking gun to hand?

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I agree that hit on the head was not an "accident" If you hit someone hard enough to split their skull; you meant it. IMO that couldn't happen in a tub or any kind of accident.

kaykay543,
Its possible JonBenet's head injury was a first attempt at staging her death, e.g. a visible cause of death which failed, so the stager moved on to ligature asphyxiation and a paintbrush, both items are redundant as a hand over JonBenet's mouth would have the same effect.

Stranger homicides sometimes begin with disabling the victim, e.g. Ted Bundy would whack them on the head, then assault them?

In the standard RDI we have an R sexually assaulting JonBenet then whacking her on the head, not impossible just seems out of place?

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I believe Patsy is responsible for the killing, and the cover-up. I also believe that a family member living outside of the household is the one who had been sexually assaulting JB. In my belief/opinion, the murder was premeditated, and her relationship with the abuser played a part in her decision to kill JB.
 
If the case were BDI you might think Burke would be motivated to get his story correct? Does he tell us JonBenet walked into the house because he has not been briefed on what came before?

Yeah I reckon so. I don't think Burke really knew what was going on. I'm going to revisit his interviews after I have lunch. I'll try get on to post again once I've done that.
 
I believe Patsy is responsible for the killing, and the cover-up. I also believe that a family member living outside of the household is the one who had been sexually assaulting JB. In my belief/opinion, the murder was premeditated, and her relationship with the abuser played a part in her decision to kill JB.
Patsy abused by her father and finding her father abusing JonBenet? Ties in with the 911 call at the party and Don leaving so quickly he had to go stand by. Patsy want to save JonBenet the agony as she grows up?
 
Patsy abused by her father and finding her father abusing JonBenet? Ties in with the 911 call at the party and Don leaving so quickly he had to go stand by. Patsy want to save JonBenet the agony as she grows up?
I believe Patsy knew her father was abusing JB, IMO. I'm not sure about the 911 call, but Don was sure to tell the police that White was acting strangely. Everyone, it seems wanted to throw White under the bus. IMO Fleet KNEW. Something at the party solidified it? Not sure what to make of the 911 call. Anyway, they were setting him up from the beginning. I believe Patsy had a plan in her head, even before the party.
 
kaykay543,
Its possible JonBenet's head injury was a first attempt at staging her death, e.g. a visible cause of death which failed, so the stager moved on to ligature asphyxiation and a paintbrush, both items are redundant as a hand over JonBenet's mouth would have the same effect.

Stranger homicides sometimes begin with disabling the victim, e.g. Ted Bundy would whack them on the head, then assault them?

In the standard RDI we have an R sexually assaulting JonBenet then whacking her on the head, not impossible just seems out of place?

.

Yes but Ted Bundy was assaulting adult women. A child is much easier to subdue and wouldn't require cracking their skull. I don't think the head injury was part of staging. I think someone in a rage hit her in the head. I think after this hit in the head is when the sexual abuse happened.
 
Yes but Ted Bundy was assaulting adult women. A child is much easier to subdue and wouldn't require cracking their skull. I don't think the head injury was part of staging. I think someone in a rage hit her in the head. I think after this hit in the head is when the sexual abuse happened.

kaykay543,
Yes but Ted Bundy was assaulting adult women
Sure, but that does not prevent that same tactic being used on someone else, i.e. its not the age factor but the means.

I think after this hit in the head is when the sexual abuse happened.
So do you think JonBenet's head injury was premeditated just as Ted Bundy's was?

How come the rage went from anger to sexual assault?

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Yeah I reckon so. I don't think Burke really knew what was going on. I'm going to revisit his interviews after I have lunch. I'll try get on to post again once I've done that.

Veronica Lodge,
Burke revealing that JonBenet walked into the house suggests to me that he gave little thought to what happened before JonBenet went to bed, since he likely saw no causal connection with later events.

Also JonBenet being carried sleeping to her bedroom is John and Patsy's version of events not Burke's, for those that entertain Burke being somewhere on the Autism Spectrum then him coming out with JonBenet walked into the house might fit someone who has a poorly developed sense of second and third person perspective?

BDI looks to me as if Burke staged JonBenet then later Patsy moved and restaged JonBenet with John subsequently tweaking aspects probably putting the Kidnapping Scenario forward?

Both John and Patsy offer explanations for different aspects of the forensic evidence, e.g. John: suitcase, chair, broken window; Patsy: size-12's, longjohns.

Its far too amateurish for it to be an adult attempt at staging themself out of a homicide?

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Its far too amateurish for it to be an adult attempt at staging themself out of a homicide?

Haha, I get what you're saying, however John and Patsy had about as much experience with staging a kidnap as Burke. The size 12s are a big redflag. I know John wasn't always around to know what size undies his daughter wore but I don't think he'd be stupid enough to put huge ones on her like that.

My problem is emotionally thinking, I don't want it to have been Burke but, dang it, you do keep coming up with very valid points which I do go away and think about a lot.
When my brain tries to make Burke innocent, I can make up all sorts of theories...
Could John have been abusing JonBenet and made her bleed, wiped her down and headed off to bed, so she went in search of Burke who had snuck downstairs unaware (or perhaps because of), the abuse occurring in her room? So Burke comforts her and gets her some tissues, a little pineapple then says "Hey, you've got blood on let's get you changed..." They head back up to her room - Size 12's and long johns the only clothes handy and the star top she had flung on the floor... John walks in just as JonBenet is starting to tell Burke what has been happening and sends Burke away to bed. The rage builds up and he grabs the flashlight the kids have been using to sneak around the house with...
 
The BDI theory is very plausible if you interpret the evidence in a certain way, but I too struggle with the theory emotionally-wise. I guess it's just that I'm an older brother to a younger sister myself - I'm close with my sister and if Burke did it, it would sadden me to know that a brother could do that do his sister. Of course, BDI is valid theory and I still lean towards the murder being an accident (though I must admit many posters have brought up great points as to why this may not be the case).

Is it possible that Burke maybe knew about JB's sexual abuse and wanted to protect his sister by killing her, ensuring she never goes through it again?
 
Haha, I get what you're saying, however John and Patsy had about as much experience with staging a kidnap as Burke. The size 12s are a big redflag. I know John wasn't always around to know what size undies his daughter wore but I don't think he'd be stupid enough to put huge ones on her like that.

My problem is emotionally thinking, I don't want it to have been Burke but, dang it, you do keep coming up with very valid points which I do go away and think about a lot.
When my brain tries to make Burke innocent, I can make up all sorts of theories...
Could John have been abusing JonBenet and made her bleed, wiped her down and headed off to bed, so she went in search of Burke who had snuck downstairs unaware (or perhaps because of), the abuse occurring in her room? So Burke comforts her and gets her some tissues, a little pineapple then says "Hey, you've got blood on let's get you changed..." They head back up to her room - Size 12's and long johns the only clothes handy and the star top she had flung on the floor... John walks in just as JonBenet is starting to tell Burke what has been happening and sends Burke away to bed. The rage builds up and he grabs the flashlight the kids have been using to sneak around the house with...

Veronica Lodge,
Yes, BDI appears quite a stretch, it took me years to accept its viability, in the early days I could not imagine Burke as a prime suspect, slowly once IDI was rejected and it became obvious RDI was the only game in town, and comparing the theories it turns out that BDI is the most consistent RDI theory, it explains more of the evidence, other theories have holes in them, that said, there is no Smoking Gun and the case could be PDI, JDI or any combination in between.

Kolar's BDI theory, implicit in his book, is really a premeditated Burke Did it All theory with hints that a pathological medical condition drove Burke to commit this crime?


Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? by A. James Kolar; pages 367-70, Excerpt
I had reviewed an investigator’s report that documented a 1997 interview with former Ramsey nanny – housekeeper Geraldine Vodicka, who stated that Burke had smeared feces on the walls of a bathroom during his mother’s first bout with cancer. She told investigators that Nedra Paugh, who was visiting the Ramsey home at the time, had directed her to clean up the mess.

There were other police reports in the files that documented what I thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.

Additionally, a box of candy located in her bedroom had also been observed to be smeared with feces. Both of these discoveries had been made during the processing of the crime scene during the execution of search warrants following the discovery of JonBenét’s body.
Two or three observations does not really make a case, but the reference to the pajama bottoms which are unconfirmed are relevant in that they might represent postmortem behaviour? These pajama bottoms might be lying in an evidence cage somewhere awaiting discovery?

Does the death of JonBenet tell us it is a Sexually Motivated Homicide? If so its at this point most folks credulity is questioned as to what would drive a nine year old boy to behave in such a manner?

One response is that the sexual assault has been staged by the parents as part of the Kidnapping Scenario?

Consider what BPD told Patsy:
BPD 1998 -Interview with Patsy, excerpt
25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are
0581
1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal
2 intrusion on JonBenet?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
4 Prior to the night she was killed?
5 TOM HANEY: Correct.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.
9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.
11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.
13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.
15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have
16 been violated like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This
18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.
19 TOM HANEY: Take a minute, if you
20 would, I mean this seems -- you know, you didn't
21 know that before right now, the 25th, at 2:32?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I absolutely
23 did not.
So if JonBenet's sexual assault has been staged what about the Prior Vaginal Intrusion on JonBenet?

January 30, 1997 Search Warrant, Excerpt
Det. Arndt told Your Affiant that she personally observed Dr. John Meyer examine the vaginal and pubic areas of the deceased, Dr. Meyer stated that he observed numerous traces of a dark fiber.

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.
This is Coroner Meyer on his first examination.

Foreign Faction by James Kolar, Excerpt
Following the meeting, Dr. Meyer returned to the morgue with Dr. Andy Sirontak, Chief of Denver Children’s Hospital Child Protection Team, so that a second opinion could be rendered on the injuries observed to the vaginal area of JonBenét.

He would observe the same injuries that Dr. Meyer had noted during the autopsy protocol and concurred that a foreign object had been inserted into the opening of JonBenét’s vaginal orifice and was responsible for the acute injury witnessed at the 7:00 o’clock position.

Further inspection revealed that the hymen was shriveled and retracted, a sign that JonBenét had been subjected to some type of sexual contact prior to the date of her death. Dr. Sirontak could not provide an opinion as to how old those injuries were or how many times JonBenét may have been assaulted and would defer to the expert opinions of other medical examiners.
That is Coroner Meyer has his initial findings confirmed by Dr. Andy Sirontak.

IMO it looks as if the acute injury might be the result of attempted staging or postmortem behaviour on the part of her killer?

Since there is no Smoking Gun you can always opt for Patsy staging John out of the case. I seriously doubt the case is PDI given its sexual nature and how much forensic evidence Patsy left in the wine-cellar, despite being motivated to remove her links to JonBenet's death.

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When I read Kolar's book I could certainly imagine his version of events taking place, and I respect his knowledge. However, the whole poop smearing thing and poo on the chocolates just don't seem to make much sense to me. Like everything about this case, it has could go in many directions. How do we know that the poop is even Burke's? Poo on the wall of a toilet can happen with kids and a 'smear' could mean an accidental swipe with loaded paper, or a deliberate mess. Both scenarios could just as easily come from JonBenet. Sadly, her underwear had stains and it sounds like toileting was still an issue for her, so it's just as easy to believe that the pj pants were worn by her even if they were too big. (I often wore my big sister's clothes, she being two years older than me - and had many 'hand me downs'.) Totally see where Kolar was going with this; the pj pants were worn as means of transport for the poop on the chocolates, but I'm not convinced the chocolates did have poop on them. If BDI and the parents covered for him, surely you would think they would at least stick their head in her room to scan for any incriminating evidence. One sniff and you'd be flushing those chocs quick smart.

So do you think the paintbrush assault occurred before she was hit on the head? Perhaps it did, making her cry out in pain (and bleed) so then the head whack occurred to quieten her? What sort of anger would JR hold toward to Burke on discovering what had happened, if this was the case? Especially as he had lost Beth not so many years ago.

Thanks for posting the interviews. Did Patsy know what was going on? It's hard because we lose so much by not being able to read the body language, eye movement, tone etc. There certainly seemed to be some anger towards John in the ransom note, and they weren't exactly very loving towards each other on the day. Why was there so much 'Patsy' all over the scene? Why did John hand the police the very pad that the ransom note had been written on? Why on earth do we have to keep visualising John in his underpants quite so much? *shudder*

Since there is no Smoking Gun you can always opt for Patsy staging John out of the case. I seriously doubt the case is PDI given its sexual nature and how much forensic evidence Patsy left in the wine-cellar, despite being motivated to remove her links to JonBenet's death.

Yes, well I agree it's not likely PDI... it's just working out which of the two remaining is Mr Guilty.
 
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