Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[AndHence]

One thing I've always wondered about is the theory that John woke up innocent and then figured out what transpired when he recognized Patsy's writing and then made an early discovery of the body around 11am. Why would John close ranks without complete knowledge of the situation? For all he knew, Patsy or Burke's DNA could be found all over JonBenet's body and handwriting experts could discover what he immediately recognized: that Patsy wrote the note. He did hire separate attorneys for himself and Patsy, so perhaps he was hedging; however, he was taking quite the risk if he never oversaw the staging.

 

[andreww]

One thing I've always wondered about is the theory that John woke up innocent and then figured out what transpired when he recognized Patsy's writing and then made an early discovery of the body around 11am. Why would John close ranks without complete knowledge of the situation? For all he knew, Patsy or Burke's DNA could be found all over JonBenet's body and handwriting experts could discover what he immediately recognized: that Patsy wrote the note. He did hire separate attorneys for himself and Patsy, so perhaps he was hedging; however, he was taking quite the risk if he never oversaw the staging.

In my opinion, the fact that John was CEO of a billion dollar company speaks to the fact that he would have been very well prepared in dealing with legal matters. Basically a very simple strategy, don't talk to police (which he didn't after finding the body), and protect yourself with lawyers (which he did before JB ever left her house).

As for John waking up innocent, it's something that I, and certainly Steve Thomas did as well, believe is a possibility. The difficult thing about proving it is that it is impossible to get a full transcript of what he said that day and at what time he said it. But basically we would have three versions of John that day:

-The innocent man that would have been eager to help, whose statements would later prove to be accurate.

-A quite unhelpful version that seemed to be lost in his own thought. This would indicate someone that had come to a revelation and was conflicted about what to do about it. LA noticed the change in Johns behaviour at about 11:00, and coincidentally he would tell his children that JB was found at 11:00.

-And finally he would become the protective lion once he had made the decision to stand by what remained of his family. Although months would pass before the lies started pouring from his mouth, we did get an indication of this with the "don't f--k with me" look that he gave Linda Arndt.

So there certainly does seem to be a metamorphosis in John that day. He cordially said things early on that definitely didn't help his case, and by the end of the day he had the only cop there counting her bullets. So what changed? Was the pressure of the situation simply getting to him or was it a day of discovery about what his family had done? I believe there is a case for both versions.


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[andreww]

(variously snipped for relevance):












I’d like to touch on something that was discussed earlier in this thread when I didn’t have the time to respond. Above are several posts from when it was discussed. So much has been written about livor mortis, and many articles have been linked with plenty of information. I won’t bother linking more because I don’t think more information is needed as much as understanding exactly what it means in relation to this case. It’s that understanding and relating it to this case that is difficult because of things I’ll try to point out.

Many of the articles we read will give different time frames for the different stages of lividity. That’s because there are so many variables that can affect its progression and its appearance, and it must also be understood that the entire process is something that occurs gradually over a period of time. Also, it has to first be noted that we are speaking about something that is based on the visible appearance of a victim. IOW, it is not something easily measured or quantified. It is this visible appearance that is the reason most sources will state that livor mortis begins at around 20 to 30 minutes after death (and even “death” itself can be said to be not so much an event as much as a process). Of course the chemical changes and microscopic process which causes livor mortis begins after (or in some cases just prior to) death. But until the process has advanced to the point of being noticeable on a victim, it would not be correct to say that it exists because it is the visible appearance of the victim’s body that the term livor mortis refers to. This was pointed out by questfortrue in one of her posts above.

The word “livor” comes from Latin referring to a color (usually bluish-grey, with purple sometimes included). Ever use the word “livid” to describe being extremely mad? The word has become synonymous with being mad because of that purplish-red color that might show up in a person’s face under stress.

What does show up before livor mortis is pallor mortis. This isn’t talked about much because it occurs in the first half-hour or so before livor mortis can be seen, and it’s unusual for a murder victim to be found and examined by an investigator that quickly after death. Also, since the state of pallor mortis is a subjective determination, accuracy in estimating time of death is impossible using it.

Knowing the basics about how livor mortis occurs and how it is affected by objects pressing on the skin surface or the surface on which the body is lying is how an experienced investigator might be able to determine whether or not a body has been moved. But like so many other things, it has its limitations.

As amateurs, we all think of the obvious from pictures we’ve probably seen showing examples of bodies that have been found by LE that had been turned over before discovery with the fixed livor mortis on the upper portions of the body. (I won’t post examples of this -- if anyone can stand the shock of looking at such things, I’m sure they already have or can easily find what I’m talking about.) Various examples show a white area where the victim may have been lying on an arm or hand, their clothing, an object, etc. But what if, after dying, the body had been turned over before its lividity was fixed? Investigators would have no indications on the body that it had been turned over within that period of time. And how about if it was partially fixed and then turned over? There might be two patterns of lividity in such a case.

How about a situation where a body is picked up in one location and placed in the exact same position somewhere else? If both surfaces were the same with nothing else underneath, would not the lividity pattern be the same? Unless the person disturbed something like the dirt or debris with their hands while sliding them under the body to lift it, there would be nothing apparent to show that the body had been moved.

And what if a body were lying on something (say, a blanket) that could be used to slide the body from one location to another? Would there be any clues that this had happened? Maybe there would be signs on the surface of the ground or in the dirt, dust or debris on the floor that would tell investigators that the body had obviously been moved. If they examined the body where it was located, they could look and document (with photos) exactly what was underneath the body in order to match it with the patterns on the underside of the victim. Any fold in the blanket, any high spot in the floor or in the dirt underneath should show up as a blanched area in the lividity of the body.

This I’m sure is nothing new to anyone who has given it any thought. But apply this to the situation with the discovery of JonBenet’s body. Did the ME examine the body in situ and compare the lividity patterns with the surface on which it lied? Did he compare the blanched lines in her back to the folds in the blanket to see if anything didn’t match? Did he have photos taken of the body being lifted from where it was found so investigators could later compare it with the lividity pattern? Hell, did he even bother going to the basement to look at the location where the body was reported to have been found after having missed the chance to see it where it was discovered? The answer, of course, to all these questions is NO. Investigators allowed people to wander around the house unsupervised, asked two possible suspects to search the crime scene, and even moved the body from one room to another before the ME had been called. One person (a possible suspect at that time) was even allowed to go back to the basement after discovery of the body to look for himself and handle crucial evidence. Later, (as CorallaroC pointed out) did the CSIs carefully examine the surface of the basement floor to see if the blanket or the body might have been moved? Would they have even had the experience or training to know exactly what to be looking for? Would they have known how important it was to knowing whether or not someone at the house that morning might have moved the body? Like so many other things associated with this case, these things are all failures by investigators to determine something that might have helped understand exactly what happened -- and might have answered the question posed in title of this thread.

Because of these things that were not done, no one in authority can say (or has said) with certainty that JonBenet’s body was moved -- or that it was not moved. We can all state our opinions and explain our reasoning. But without the information that should have been gathered, we simply don’t know and can’t say that the body was or was not moved. There are no “established facts” here.

I beg to differ because the body was moved, from the basement to the top of the stairs. Then again to the living room under the tree. How in gods earth can it be said say that she wasn't moved at 11:00 because of a lack of marks when there were no marks from the two instances that we know she was moved? At that point she was a block of wood and probably could have been propped up in a closet for all we know.


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[Annapurna]

The one obstacle to the "JR ignorant until 11am. theory" (that I've outlined before) is BR on the 911 tape. A completely innocent man would not have a reason to lie. He would have no reason not to say to LE "BR was awakened by PR on the phone, we sent him back to bed until we figured things out". So unless he and PR decided to lie to LE between 5:52 and about 5:59 (call and French's arrival), then there was collusion before the call. If he and PR did decide to lie in that 7 minutes, that's already suspicious.

Short timeline to illustrate my point. R version of events in color as they are unreliable witnesses.
5:30 R's awaken
5:45 Note found, willy-nilly running around house ensues
Between 5:45 and 5:52:R
5:52 911 call placed
Between 5:52 and 5:59: Half the address book called

5:59-6am LEO French arrives
About the same time, JF arrives, other Officers arrive, FW & PW arrive.
House is searched.

Between 7-10, JR claims he searches the basement for the first time. Recall RN says call will arrive between 8-10 and JR was being coached in the den. Many conflicting accounts of this. Info taken from JB case encyclopedia. JR has said the following:

"It would have been that time period: seven to nine." 1998
When asked whether it was before or after Whites and Fernies arrived, John stated: "I think it was after, because they came fairly early"
"The best I can do is, it was, I believe, after the police came. Because they had gone through the house before I figured out what I'm going to do. It was before ten o'clock. They had already done some preparation before that. So it would have been before. Probably before nine. So then somewhere between seven and nine."
when reminded that the RN said a phone call would come between 8 and 10 AM, NOT 10-12 AM, as John had supposed, John made clear that he had visited the basement prior to that time since "When we were ready for the phone call and I was prepped about what I was going to say and I was getting the family ready. And so between that period of time we were just waiting for the phone call and I was near the phone. And I was either in the study or on the first floor. I just waiting for it."
According to JR's interview with Lou Smit, there was a chair in front of the train-room door. Since neither French nor FW say they saw this and both searched the TR, it can be inferred that he searched before 6am.



...

~6:45 PW calls home.
~7am BR is "awakened" and dressed.
After 7am: BR taken to White's



So why all the inconsistencies? There is only one version of the truth.

Since there are many things that he supposedly was doing before 8am, when did he search the basement? If he was waiting by the phone between 8-10am as he states, it had to have been before this.

Since he told officers that BR was asleep the whole time and knew nothing, he had to have already known more than he said. He had to know that it was important or needed to not call the truth. Why would a completely innocent man do that?

 

[UKGuy]

Annapurna
Yes its that simple, collusion can be demonstrated by all three remaining Ramsey's. It always mystifies me how some people can ever think JR or PR knew nothing until they exercised their Sherlock Holmes abilities thereby assisting in whatever they had no prior knowledge of?

.

 

[AndHence]

The most common argument people make in favor of the Ramseys' innocence usually has to do with the 911 call and the ransom note. "Why would they call 911 with the body in the house and lead investigators to a note in their own handwriting?" I think this is precisely what the Ramseys wanted people to think. They had to leave a note because there was no physical evidence of an intruder and they had to call 911 early that morning because they were due to leave on a flight at 730. Cancelling that flight before calling the cops would look suspicious. They also thought people would see them as innocent by taking that action with the body still in the house. They couldn't risk removing JonBenet for fear of being caught, so the note and hiding JonBenet were their only options. Amazingly, this worked. John Ramsey told Linda Arndt upon finding the body that this "must be an inside job" and Patsy mentioned how the housekeeper would leave notes for her at the backstair where the ransom letter was found. John would even later point out the absurdity of writing a note and calling the cops in a documentary interview he gave years later.

 

[TeaTime]

We did not ever hear either parent say that they woke BR to ask if he had seen or heard anything before he was shipped off to the White's. Although BR is heard on the 911 call, neither parent ever mentions that he was awake before LE arrived. BR admits that he pretended to be asleep when the officer looked into his room, so he admitted that he was in fact NOT asleep and by 7, "he was asleep the whole time and knows nothing."

Didn't JR or PR have to ask him what he did or didn't know before making that statement? PR didn't even get up to hug him or comfort him before he was shipped off.

"We're not talking to you?"

"But what DID you find?"

 

[Ellie9]

PR didn't even get up to hug him or comfort him before he was shipped off.

Is this true? If so it's one of the most telling things yet.

 

[Cranberry]

Is this true? If so it's one of the most telling things yet.

from the PR 4/97 interview:

TT: Do you remember who came in first, the Whites or the Fernies.
PR: I think I think it was the Whites, but I can’t remember.
TT: Okay. Uh. . .
PR: It seemed like they got there pretty quick.
TT: Fleet and Pricilla arrived?
PR: Yeah.
TT: Okay. About what time did John go upstairs and wake up Burke to have him leave, cause I know that was after the Whites got there. Is that right?
PR: I don’t know what time that was, but it was more, it was more daylightish. I mean that was after every, a lot of people were there by then.
TT: Okay.
PR: Uh, and there was some discussion about what to do about Burke and I think Fleet said he could come over to their house and play or something.
TT: Um hum. What, what kind of discussion, I mean, other than Fleet saying he can come over to my house and play. What to do with Burke?
PR: Well . . .
TT: (Inaudible)
PR: . . .just you know, we just thought it was best that he not be around. It was, it was just bedlam, you know, and I was a mess and, you know the police trying to do their job and all and . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .you know.
TT: Was it uh, was Linda there by the time uh, when Burke was leaving?
PR: Um . . .
TT: Do you remember that?
PR: I don’t remember exactly. She was, she was there pretty soon, but it seemed like, I remember sitting in the sunroom and it was, more daylightish when she got there.
TT: Okay.
PR: So I don’t know, I don’t know what time it was really.
TT: Okay. Who called Father Rol and let him know what was going on?
PR: I think Barbara said she did.
TT: Okay. Do you have any idea about what time Father Rol got there?
PR: I don’t know what time anything happened. I was just, I was just frantic.
TT: Okay. Kind of maybe, make your own timeline here.
PR: Um.
TT: Um, do you remember if Burke left the house before or after Father Rol arrived?
PR: No I don’t, I don’t remember.
TT: Okay. Um, again, who, who took Burke out of the house? Did John, John and Fleet do that or did just Fleet drive him away?
PR: Uh, I don’t believe John left. I think that John brought him downstairs and uh, he came over to me and told, really couldn’t (inaudible) or anything and he had tears in his eyes, I think, I think we just said you can go over and play at the Whites. I don’t remember exactly who took him out of there.
TT: I know it’s a difficult time and these are some hard questions we have to talk about. Um, Patsy, and again it’s more just hard to understand sometimes and I just want to make sure the secretary can understand . . .
PR: Yeah.
TT: . . .so John brings Burke downstairs and then, is that, that’s when you told him that JonB. . .was missing. JonBenet was missing.
PR: yeah, I think Burke, Burke, I think John had talked to him some upstairs. I don’t know.
TT: Okay.
PR: (Inaudible) came in and, you know, hugged him before he left.
TT: Did he day anything to you before he left?
PR: (Response inaudible.)
TT: And then you a, then somebody took him over to the White’s house.
PR: Correct.
TT: Okay. And I know through the, through the morning, and uh, before John went downstairs, can you kind of give me an idea what, what went on in the house during that time? I know there were a lot of things going on, but, kind of what you can remember.
PR: Right, well uh, they uh, I just remember they were setting up back there that tape stuff or whatever so that we’re, and I think Linda had instructed John about what to say when they called and uh, uh, and she was talking to me and said uh, that they weren’t sure, I guess the note said something about like we’ll call at, I forget what time, 10:00 tomorrow or something and, and she wasn’t sure if that was going to be that day, you know . . .

 

[TeaTime]

Odd that NO ONE else remembers BR crying or having tears in his eyes or being approached by his mother before he left or him running over to his mom for comfort.

 

[AndHence]

Barbara Fernie found it odd that Burke wasn't up since she knew he was an early riser like her son. If an intruder just snatched your daughter on the same floor where her brother sleeps, you'd be guarding him with your life.

 

[Annapurna]

I always find it a little strange that both R's are so unsure about the times stated in the ransom note.

If your daughter was missing and you are trying to get her back, that call would be the most important thing in the world, right? You'd be waiting with baited breath, watching the clock and the phone. Wouldn't those moments be burned into your memory? Wouldn't you be so distressed when that time period was over and you'd received no call? You'd probably freak out a little (or a lot) after 10am passed.

But all the important details are hard to remember of course...

 

[Tawny]

I always find it a little strange that both R's are so unsure about the times stated in the ransom note.

If your daughter was missing and you are trying to get her back, that call would be the most important thing in the world, right? You'd be waiting with baited breath, watching the clock and the phone. Wouldn't those moments be burned into your memory? Wouldn't you be so distressed when that time period was over and you'd received no call? You'd probably freak out a little (or a lot) after 10am passed.

But all the important details are hard to remember of course...

You would think!

 

[pukasonqo2]

I always find it a little strange that both R's are so unsure about the times stated in the ransom note.

If your daughter was missing and you are trying to get her back, that call would be the most important thing in the world, right? You'd be waiting with baited breath, watching the clock and the phone. Wouldn't those moments be burned into your memory? Wouldn't you be so distressed when that time period was over and you'd received no call? You'd probably freak out a little (or a lot) after 10am passed.

But all the important details are hard to remember of course...

unless, as it has been stated before, they knew no call would be forthcoming because there was no "small foreign faction"
that foreign faction always makes me think of patty hearst and the symbionese liberation army
don't know why but that ransom note always reminds me of patty hearst and the lindbergh baby, like something that somebody who read about these cases would think is how a ransom note (or novel in this case) should be


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[TeaTime]

I would be wailing at 10:01am. No one said a word. The social workers/counselors that went to comfort the Rs thought they were divorced they were so distant to one another. The Rs knew JBR was dead in the basement, we just do not know who swung the fatal blow or whether it was intended to kill or not. Everything else was done to cover up the familial homicide and molestation.

One of the 3 cracked her skull open, one of the 3 was molesting her, one of the 3 wrote a note and one or more staged a phony crime scene. At least 2 of them are in this up to their eyebrows, if not all 3. One is dead and the other 2 aren't talking either.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I would be wailing at 10:01am. No one said a word. The social workers/counselors that went to comfort the Rs thought they were divorced they were so distant to one another. The Rs knew JBR was dead in the basement, we just do not know who swung the fatal blow or whether it was intended to kill or not. Everything else was done to cover up the familial homicide and molestation.

One of the 3 cracked her skull open, one of the 3 was molesting her, one of the 3 wrote a note and one or more staged a phony crime scene. At least 2 of them are in this up to their eyebrows, if not all 3. One is dead and the other 2 aren't talking either.

I have always wondered why the other two as you said weren't talking to each other.. It always appeared to be that reason could be B was responsible for the killing and J blamed P for the ongoing pageant stuff which caused a lot of jeaousy on B's part..

 

[dogperson]

Maybe PR and JR were afraid to look at or communicate with each other for fear of giving something away by their actions or expressions?

To me the thing that is most suspicious of all is that they didn't really seem to be expecting the 10am call and they didn't become hysterical when the call didn't come in. Just my opinion, but I think that says a lot.

 

[TeaTime]

Well, the writer of the note placed the kidnapping/death of JBR squarely in JR's lap. It was addressed to him alone, both formally and informally, complimented him, delivered the idea that this was done because of who HE was, asked for his bonus, made fun of him and insulted his intelligence to boot. Maybe he was p'd that PR directed this all against him in the note that she wrote while he showered and she felt guilty about bailing on him by not mentioning herself at all therein. She was not addressed, criticized, taunted, threatened, scolded or reprimanded by the 'kidnapper', just JR.

Kind crappy last minute act of betrayal. She knew what the note said and called while JR was still reading it. I bet his brain exploded with the ridiculousness of it and it was too late to change anything, the police were on their way, he was going to have to go with it even though it was full of hints that he got right away but hoped LE didn't catch.

I think he was angry with PR. They rode in separate vehicles to the White's after being expelled from their house by LE.

 

[DeDee]

RSBM for relevance


According to JR's interview with Lou Smit, there was a chair in front of the train-room door. Since neither French nor FW say they saw this and both searched the TR, it can be inferred that he searched before 6am.

Recall during JR telling Smit about the chair being in front of the train room door when Smit told JR his version did not make any sense? Smit said to JR: Why would the intruder place a chair at the door then close the door as he makes his escape out of the window?

Smit really helped JR along with his version of details. Smit knew JR's story didn't make sense so he would give JR another chance to try to explain it. JR usually said: I don't know why the intruder would do that. Folks can boast all they want to about Smit and his attributes but he really did the investigation harm, imho.

When I saw pictures of the train room the chair was inside the train room to the right side so someone moved it into the room at some point.

 

[andreww]

Recall during JR telling Smit about the chair being in front of the train room door when Smit told JR his version did not make any sense? Smit said to JR: Why would the intruder place a chair at the door then close the door as he makes his escape out of the window?

Smit really helped JR along with his version of details. Smit knew JR's story didn't make sense so he would give JR another chance to try to explain it. JR usually said: I don't know why the intruder would do that. Folks can boast all they want to about Smit and his attributes but he really did the investigation harm, imho.

When I saw pictures of the train room the chair was inside the train room to the right side so someone moved it into the room at some point.

You have to wonder why that chair was there. But just remember, if Burke was indeed responsible, he would have needed to stand on something to latch the WC door. Perhaps he used that chair, then dragged it back, leaving it in front of the train room door?


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