Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[TeaTime]

PR flipped the latch on the WC door. I will bet money that initially she also hid that latch with a decoration which JR removed when he went down after French's search. French thought the door was painted shut, it wasn't.

 

[InstantProof]

Well, the writer of the note placed the kidnapping/death of JBR squarely in JR's lap. It was addressed to him alone, both formally and informally, complimented him, delivered the idea that this was done because of who HE was, asked for his bonus, made fun of him and insulted his intelligence to boot. Maybe he was p'd that PR directed this all against him in the note that she wrote while he showered and she felt guilty about bailing on him by not mentioning herself at all therein. She was not addressed, criticized, taunted, threatened, scolded or reprimanded by the 'kidnapper', just JR.

Kind crappy last minute act of betrayal. She knew what the note said and called while JR was still reading it. I bet his brain exploded with the ridiculousness of it and it was too late to change anything, the police were on their way, he was going to have to go with it even though it was full of hints that he got right away but hoped LE didn't catch.

I think he was angry with PR. They rode in separate vehicles to the White's after being expelled from their house by LE.

I was just considering Patsy wrote the note to sabotage whatever John's plan was. So while he stages and/or is in the shower she writes it. She sounds annoyed in the RN so I think there was already a conflict.

 

[Annapurna]

Maybe John was bossing her around. My little pet theory (developed over years now) follows:

JB is found by her mother in a horrible position, bloodied, assaulted, bashed, with that bruise on her neck from a previous strangulation (I go back and forth on this part, it's hard to know without being a doctor). PR will not allow this to be shown to the world. She gets JR. She yells and screams until he goes along with what she wants (he always gives into her.)

So JR grudgingly decides to stage the scene. It will protect his business he thinks. He tells PR to bring him some supplies: cord, tape, latex gloves, clean clothes and something to clean her with. She brings it to him. He tells her to start on the note. She writes one, brings it downstairs for his approval. She sees the body and what he did to it. She is horrified. He tells her to get it together or he's pinning this on her. He goes upstairs to shower to remove any evidence from himself. PR stays in the kitchen writing another note, this time more resentful. No more Mr. & Mrs.

He comes down, it's about 5:50 now. PR never changed because she was so distraught she didn't care. She goes to call the cops, JR sees her final note and gets angry. He knows it's implausible and could ruin everything he did for his other child and his wife. The rest of the morning he stays distant.

 

[InstantProof]

I always figured she abandoned the Mr & Mrs letter and leaves herself completely out of it as a way of distancing herself from the letter.

 

[Tawny]

I always figured she abandoned the Mr & Mrs letter and leaves herself completely out of it as a way of distancing herself from the letter.

I agree.

 

[Ellie9]

Maybe John was bossing her around. My little pet theory (developed over years now) follows:

JB is found by her mother in a horrible position, bloodied, assaulted, bashed, with that bruise on her neck from a previous strangulation (I go back and forth on this part, it's hard to know without being a doctor). PR will not allow this to be shown to the world. She gets JR. She yells and screams until he goes along with what she wants (he always gives into her.)

So JR grudgingly decides to stage the scene. It will protect his business he thinks. He tells PR to bring him some supplies: cord, tape, latex gloves, clean clothes and something to clean her with. She brings it to him. He tells her to start on the note. She writes one, brings it downstairs for his approval. She sees the body and what he did to it. She is horrified. He tells her to get it together or he's pinning this on her. He goes upstairs to shower to remove any evidence from himself. PR stays in the kitchen writing another note, this time more resentful. No more Mr. & Mrs.

He comes down, it's about 5:50 now. PR never changed because she was so distraught she didn't care. She goes to call the cops, JR sees her final note and gets angry. He knows it's implausible and could ruin everything he did for his other child and his wife. The rest of the morning he stays distant.

This is a really good theory for this part. I'm curious, reading this part, what is your theory for the hours before? From the Christmas party up to the staging part?

I always figured she abandoned the Mr & Mrs letter and leaves herself completely out of it as a way of distancing herself from the letter.

I've thought this, too! Also, it's probably just really difficult to write a fake letter to yourself. It's so much easier to just write to another person, and more natural from habit. It seems a lot of things that happened were done out of habit, which can be accounted for by knowing that the Ramsey's were not criminals or experienced in anything like this, as well as rushed for time due to early flight and expectations of when they'd have woken up.

ETA: More difficult because: You have to write from the fake voice of the 'kidnapper/s' and you also have to write yourself in from the perspective of an outsider, how that person may view you and your life/house/work/etc. Leaving yourself out eliminates that second difficult change in perspective.

Also it would be really embarrassing if she went around insulting and complimenting herself the same way she insulted/complimented John here and there, and they were able to definitively say she wrote the note.

 

[InstantProof]

I think she also wanted to be done with the whole thing after calling 911. She didn't want to be involved. The whole letter is about John and his business etc.

 

[Annapurna]

Ellie, I do agree about distancing. You see a whole lot of that from both R's in this case. That's one of the reasons I see them both being involved in staging, with JR using PR's supplies and PR not being in the loop about everything (like the big panties).

As for a theory to what lead up to the staging, this is obviously total conjecture so its hard to say. I believe there was likely friction between the siblings and an intense jealousy of JB from BR. JB got a new bike that day, she got fancy jewelry and dolls. Her mother fawned over her as did the extended family and everyone else who met her.

I think it is possible that after the kids were ready for bed (JB in the Barbie nightgown or red turtleneck, BR in his PJs), BR was still up and feeling bold from his time with his friends that night. He wants to play a game. He takes a knife upstairs (grapefruit knife found on the upstairs counter by her room). He is in control of her now. He is rough with her, in previous "explorations" he had been more gentle but this time he's a bit more emotionally charged. She gets upset, hurt and bleeding. She gets up to tell on him. He doesn't want this to happen because he knows what he was doing was bad. He grabs her by her collar but she gets away. He's angrier now. He picks up something heavy nearby (a trophy maybe? something in his room? something else in her room? I don't think it was the flashlight) and gives it all he's got. She falls. He knows its bad. He tries to drag her a few feet and then drops her. When she falls her face is resting on something hard and it leaves that mark. He runs away. PR heard loud noises and investigates.

This theory can also be changed to take place in the train room if that makes more sense to someone.

 

[CorallaroC]

New book by Pam Archuletta:

http://www.amazon.com/Patsy-Ramsey-...id=1447342608&sr=8-3&keywords=jonbenet+ramsey

thanks Eileenhawkeye for the info and link.

I recently finished reading the new book by Pam Archuletta & found it interesting enough to keep my attention all the way through.

Despite some of the comments by reviewers at Amazon, I do not consider this book to be 100% pro-Patsy. Yes, it seems heavily weighted toward avoiding any undue criticism of PR but if one reads closely, I think the author reveals a few "chinks in the armor of" or rather gives brief glimpses of the "face behind the mask of" PR. I have no idea if the author intended these small "reveals" or if the author's hurt feelings and/or personal resentments came into play, but interesting nonetheless.

Maybe after a number of us read the book, it might be worthwhile to have a thread for discussions JMO

 

[Ellie9]

thanks Eileenhawkeye for the info and link.

I recently finished reading the new book by Pam Archuletta & found it interesting enough to keep my attention all the way through.

Despite some of the comments by reviewers at Amazon, I do not consider this book to be 100% pro-Patsy. Yes, it seems heavily weighted toward avoiding any undue criticism of PR but if one reads closely, I think the author reveals a few "chinks in the armor of" or rather gives brief glimpses of the "face behind the mask of" PR. I have no idea if the author intended these small "reveals" or if the author's hurt feelings and/or personal resentments came into play, but interesting nonetheless.

Maybe after a number of us read the book, it might be worthwhile to have a thread for discussions JMO

bold me

I won't have the opportunity to read until it hits libraries... can you please share a couple of these?

 

[Broken Angel]

Here's an excerpt from Pam's book that I found a bit weird:

"The children were polite upon being introduced, but both were bored with the adult conversations, and ignored us. JonBenet flirted with Michael, asked him questions, laughed, and winked at him. Burke remained engrossed in his game boy computer and was not a bit social."

JonBenet flirted with Pam's husband? I remember Patsy being concerned before the tragedy that JonBenet was flirting with strangers. I'm a bit uncomfortable about a little 6-years-old being described as flirty but maybe it's just me? Reminds me about the story Linda told that at only 4 JonBenet said she was gonna a good, sexy witch for Halloween and Patsy replied "Yeah, she's gonna be a good, sexy witch."

Those are the kind of behaviors kids learn from adults. Makes me really wonder about what going on behind closed doors in the Ramsey's home. I don't think Patsy was as innocent as many people makes her out to be!

 

[CorallaroC]

bold me

I won't have the opportunity to read until it hits libraries... can you please share a couple of these?

Yes, I would like to share a few things that caught my attention in the book.

My only hesitation, does anyone know if there are any WS rules or limitations about quoting snippets from minor JBR case related books? I dont want to break any rules.... but I do think there are some interesting insights worth discussing.

My spare time is limited at the moment, but I will answer soon as I can

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Here's an excerpt from Pam's book that I found a bit weird:

"The children were polite upon being introduced, but both were bored with the adult conversations, and ignored us. JonBenet flirted with Michael, asked him questions, laughed, and winked at him. Burke remained engrossed in his game boy computer and was not a bit social."

JonBenet flirted with Pam's husband? I remember Patsy being concerned before the tragedy that JonBenet was flirting with strangers. I'm a bit uncomfortable about a little 6-years-old being described as flirty but maybe it's just me? Reminds me about the story Linda told that at only 4 JonBenet said she was gonna a good, sexy witch for Halloween and Patsy replied "Yeah, she's gonna be a good, sexy witch."

Those are the kind of behaviors kids learn from adults. Makes me really wonder about what going on behind closed doors in the Ramsey's home. I don't think Patsy was as innocent as many people makes her out to be!

I went to the preview page on Amazon for the book, and this incident happened in Fall of 1993! I don't like the author saying JonBenet was flirting. I highly doubt JonBenet was flirting with the same intention of an adult. Even if her mannerisms resembled flirting, she likely had no idea how she was coming across. I also don't know if I believe a 3-year-old would even have the vocabulary to "flirt" either. What type of questions could she even be asking? I also feel like because JonBenet is the "child beauty queen", the author is trying to capatalize on that. If this was any other child, it would just be "Oh, she had a little crush! It was adorable!" but since it is JonBenet, they are making it out like she has the power to seduce someone. No other child, a preschooler in this instance, would ever be described as "flirting" with an adult man.

 

[Annapurna]

Since she was so young in that statement, I must say that I don't think it means what we assume. I have heard it said many times when a child (usually toddler age or younger) is smiling and talking to an adult that it was described as "flirting" This obviously does not have the sexual connotation. It is more of a way of saying "charming" or something.

 

[Broken Angel]

If this was any other child, it would just be "Oh, she had a little crush! It was adorable!" but since it is JonBenet, they are making it out like she has the power to seduce someone. No other child, a preschooler in this instance, would ever be described as "flirting" with an adult man.

Exactly!

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Since she was so young in that statement, I must say that I don't think it means what we assume. I have heard it said many times when a child (usually toddler age or younger) is smiling and talking to an adult that it was described as "flirting" This obviously does not have the sexual connotation. It is more of a way of saying "charming" or something.

It's all about context though. This is being said in a book about a 6-year-old girl who was murdered, a girl who is known as a "child beauty queen" and who had suffered sexual abuse before she was murdered. I really do think the reader was suppose to say "Whaaat? Flirting with an adult man? Why was JonBenet acting this way?" If I had not gone to the page on Amazon, how many people reading this forum would know the instance happened in 1993? My reaction was the same as Broken Angel's. I think there are other ways to show that a 6-year-old girl was charming besides the way the author chose. It sounds like it could be a line in a National Enquirer article.

 

[andreww]

It's all about context though. This is being said in a book about a 6-year-old girl who was murdered, a girl who is known as a "child beauty queen" and who had suffered sexual abuse before she was murdered. I really do think the reader was suppose to say "Whaaat? Flirting with an adult man? Why was JonBenet acting this way?" If I had not gone to the page on Amazon, how many people reading this forum would know the instance happened in 1993? My reaction was the same as Broken Angel's. I think there are other ways to show that a 6-year-old girl was charming besides the way the author chose. It sounds like it could be a line in a National Enquirer article.

Lets be realistic here. Pam Archuleta is NOT an author. She is simply "The Pilots wife", or just someone that was close to someone that was a casual employee of the Ramseys. I think you guys are reading too much in to it. Bad choice of words in this case, but I know that little girls can certainly be flirtatious with adult men who they consider to be cool and interesting. Its not a sexual thing by any means, more just vying for your constant attention.

 

[CorallaroC]

I think it is also important to take note that the book is presented as "A Novel Based Off A True Story" which is printed on the cover.

aka and author/publisher's way to CMA

 

[eric_none1]

I'm new to websleuths, but wanted to engage in some thoughts/theories based on what I've read. I welcome any reply

First and foremost, its clear there was no intruder; all fingers point at the Ramsey's as being involved

Based off what I've read thus far, this is what makes the most sense, in my opinion

1. They said its very likely the letter was written prior to the murder
2. Patsy made the 911 call, which suggests that she had no knowledge of the murder
3. Its likely John killed JonBenet

Here's why others (and myself) believe John killed his daughter. First and foremost, the act of garroting is brutal...and others, as well as myself, believe that no mother, no matter how insane, would resort to that method. Is it possible? Of course. Likely? No.

Why would Patsy use her own items around the house?

The letter suggests many, many things...and while it does look like Patsy's writing, it also makes references to technical words. This makes sense as John's career was that of a technical sense

Why would Patsy call 911? It would make sense that she'd call if she didn't know anything the murder

Conflict: The letter states her daughter would be killed if anyone was contacted. Why call if she was risking her daughter's life? (whether she was involved or not, it makes no sense)

It would make sense IF something about the plan were awry. Suppose for example Patsy was involved, and the plan was to rid the body but something happened. By calling, she is therefore just got her daughter killed. Therefore, that explains the body in the basement. Of course, it wouldn't be a kidnapping at that point, but a murder with an oddly out of place ransom note

What the plan COULD have been was to wake in the morning, load and dump the body. They could then claim they didn't call the cops out of fear for their daughter's safety (initially). After they dumped the body, they could call the cops, tell them their daughter is missing and they found a ransom note. Their alibi could be something to the effect of, we withdrew the money. But then, by calling the cops after withdrawing the money, JonBenet is killed. But maybe they decided it would be a bad idea to be out and about with their daughter's body in the car, and instead risked calling 911

My big question though, is why were the Ramsey's apologized to? Why were they removed as suspects in the case when it seems clear as day they were involved?

 

[Dynamic88]

I'm new to websleuths, but wanted to engage in some thoughts/theories based on what I've read. I welcome any reply

First and foremost, its clear there was no intruder; all fingers point at the Ramsey's as being involved

Based off what I've read thus far, this is what makes the most sense, in my opinion

1. They said its very likely the letter was written prior to the murder
2. Patsy made the 911 call, which suggests that she had no knowledge of the murder
3. Its likely John killed JonBenet

Here's why others (and myself) believe John killed his daughter. First and foremost, the act of garroting is brutal...and others, as well as myself, believe that no mother, no matter how insane, would resort to that method. Is it possible? Of course. Likely? No.

Why would Patsy use her own items around the house?

The letter suggests many, many things...and while it does look like Patsy's writing, it also makes references to technical words. This makes sense as John's career was that of a technical sense

Why would Patsy call 911? It would make sense that she'd call if she didn't know anything the murder

Conflict: The letter states her daughter would be killed if anyone was contacted. Why call if she was risking her daughter's life? (whether she was involved or not, it makes no sense)

It would make sense IF something about the plan were awry. Suppose for example Patsy was involved, and the plan was to rid the body but something happened. By calling, she is therefore just got her daughter killed. Therefore, that explains the body in the basement. Of course, it wouldn't be a kidnapping at that point, but a murder with an oddly out of place ransom note

What the plan COULD have been was to wake in the morning, load and dump the body. They could then claim they didn't call the cops out of fear for their daughter's safety (initially). After they dumped the body, they could call the cops, tell them their daughter is missing and they found a ransom note. Their alibi could be something to the effect of, we withdrew the money. But then, by calling the cops after withdrawing the money, JonBenet is killed. But maybe they decided it would be a bad idea to be out and about with their daughter's body in the car, and instead risked calling 911

My big question though, is why were the Ramsey's apologized to? Why were they removed as suspects in the case when it seems clear as day they were involved?

The police never dropped the Ramseys as suspects.

"

1. They said its very likely the letter was written prior to the murder

"
Not sure I agree the letter was written prior to the murder. Could be but I don't see why it has to be.

"Patsy made the 911 call, which suggests that she had no knowledge of the murder"

I think I know where this is coming from, but I don't want to assume anything. Can you explain why you think Patsy making the 911 call suggests she had no knowledge of the murder? I need to understand your thinking before I can respond.

3. Its likely John killed JonBenet

Well it's likely it was John or Patsy, as only JR/PR/BR were in the house, aside from JBR. As far as we know. IMO it's very unlikely to have been BR but BDI theory has it's fans.

It would make sense IF something about the plan were awry.

Something must have gone awry because we have a supposed "sex killing" or kidnapping gone wrong, but the "intruder" already had JBR out of bed so why not remove her from the house? The body is cleaned and redressed and wrapped and hidden in the WC which is inconsistent with a kidnapping gone wrong. As you mention, the RN is out of place given there is a murder.

By calling, she is therefore just got her daughter killed. Therefore, that explains the body in the basement.

I'm afraid it doesn't explain the body in the basement. Though a precise TOD can't be established it seems unlikely the TOD could be as late as 6am. If we can put the TOD at least a few hours prior to 6am, then she could not have been killed in response to Patsy's 911 call.