Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[Anti-K]

Lets Start by looking at a few quotes from John...

ST: So the morning of the 26th do you recall checking all the doors, and they were locked?
JR: I believed I checked all the first-floor doors, yeah. I did go out once. I went out to the door that leads into the garage to see if it was locked because there’s a bunch of boxes piled in front of it and you couldn’t get to it from the inside of the garage. So I did in fact go out of the house once, which would have been for, you know, half a minute.
ST: And that was from where to where?
ST: I went out the side door around to the back of the garage to see if that garage door into the garage was locked.
ST: And then immediately back into the house?
JR: Yeah.

So here we have John admitting that he was actively looking for a point of entry or exit. This is the first thing he does, before LE even arrives at the scene.


JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). They were leaving
21 little clues to analyze this. I think entry was
22 gained through the basement window.
23 LOU SMIT: Why do you think that?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Because the window was cracked
25 open. There was this large suitcase under it, as
0041
1 if it was used to climb out. That suitcase didn't
2 belong there.

Now we have John (at a later date ) saying that the window was unlatched and there was a suitcase under it that didn't belong there. Any Alarm bells going off John?

JR: Ah, well, I remember they took me aside, and we sat in John Andrew’s room which is the one next to JonBenet’s and she went through what I should do when we talked to the caller and I must insist that I talk to JonBenet and that we need until 5 o’clock to raise the money. I’d actually called my (inaudible) and arranged for the money. Ah, and I think we had by that time started to wonder if one of the housekeepers might be involved. And there was some activity around that direction. We waited until past 11 and then we, and then I think we were in the living room and Linda said why don’t you take someone and look through the house and see if there’s anything you notice that’s unusual. And Fleet and I, Fleet was standing there and said he’d go with me. And we went down to the basement, went into the train room, which is, you know, the train set is, and that’s really the only window that’s, would let in entrance into he basement. And actually I’d gone down there earlier that morning, into that room, and the window was broken, but I didn’t see any glass around, so I assumed it was broken last summer. I used that window to get into the house when (inaudible) I didn’t have a key. But the window was open, about an eighth of an inch, and just kind latched it. So I went back down with Fleet, we looked around for some glass again, still didn’t see any glass. And I told him that I thought that the break came from when I did that last summer and then, then I went from there into the cellar. Pull on the door, it was latched. I reach up and unlatched it, and then I saw the white blanket, (inaudible).

So John has found a broken unlatched window with a suitcase under it that isn't supposed to be there while he is admittedly on the hunt for an entry/exit point, and his only action is to latch it and not mention it again for three months?



So AK, I'm not going to let you or your other IDI pals of the hook on this one. Tell me why John didn't mention this unlocked window again? Wait, lets let John explain first...

JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there
2 was
3 a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.
4 LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was
5 positioned?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think
7 the handle was on top. It was directly under the
8 window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I
9 don't know why, but I closed it. And then --
10 LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock
11 it or close it?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little
13 latch on it.
14 LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am
16 sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I
17 think at that point I still was trying to figure
18 out how they'd get in the house.
19 LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your
20 (INAUDIBLE).
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.
22 LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember. I mean,
24 part of what is going on you're in such a state of
25 disbelief this can even happen. And the, you know,
0154
1 the window had been broken out. And you say hah,
2 that's it. But it was a window that I had used to
3 get into the house before. It was cracked and open
4 a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me.
5 Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in
6 because that basement could get real hot in
7 winter. So it was like, you know, after I thought
8 about it, I thought it was more of an alarming
9 situation how it struck me at the time. It was
10 still sort of explainable to me that it could have
11 been left open.
12 And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have
13 been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I
14 remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all
15 the way back there and put it against the window.

Okay AK, you're up. Lets hear your reasonable explanation for this obvious bit of BS straight out of "Mr Ramsey's" mouth?

This is the third time that I remember you posing this question. The last time you asked, I answered it here: http://tinyurl.com/glzpscd
…

AK

 

[andreww]

This is the third time that I remember you posing this question. The last time you asked, I answered it here: http://tinyurl.com/glzpscd
…

AK

You are so awesome at avoiding answering questions AK, and I'm not gonna let you squirm out of this.

Your answer...

Mr Ramsey saw nothing unusual when he noticed and latched the window, and the police ahd already been in the basement to look around so they had presumably already seen the window, so Mr Ramsay may have thought there wasn’t really anything to mention (it’s okay if you think he was wrong).

Your pal John admit's that he did see something unusual, the suitcase that "shouldn't have been there" under the open window, that he found while looking for an entry/exit point.

Answer the question again AK, why didn't he mention it too police? If you can come up with a reasonable answer for that I'll never question you again, but its a pretty safe bet that you can't and you won't, because there simply isn't a reasonable explanation.

 

[BOESP]

How about the "clever" clues such as the chair that blocked the entrance door to the room with the suitcase. John Ramsey thought that was "clever." It sounded more like Houdini to me.

How do you block the entry side of a door with a chair when you have exited out a window from the closed side of the door?

Does anyone know if that door opened out or opened into the room (opened in)?

 

[andreww]

Kane wrote Wong a letter explaining why she would not be a credible witness for the Grand Jury.

I don’t remember if Epstein was ever approached (or, whatever), but if there had been a trial and if he were challenged by the defence then I think he would be treated the same as he was with Carnes.
…

AK

Yes, the question is why is the method only questioned in this case? The fact that both Liebman and Wong are both still in the business with more than 60 years experience between them, leads me to believe that their methods were just fine.

 

[andreww]

How about the "clever" clues such as the chair that blocked the entrance door to the room with the suitcase. John Ramsey thought that was "clever." It sounded more like Houdini to me.

How do you block the entry side of a door with a chair when you have exited out a window from the closed side of the door?

Does anyone know if that door opened out or opened into the room (opened in)?

Doors always open in to a room. Its a building code thing.

 

[TeaTime]

I checked the size charts and it looks like 12/14 girl's underwear size is the same as adult women's 2/4 waist size so those are underwear that a slender adult woman could wear. Could Patsy have bought matching underwear for both JonBenet and herself? Patsy looks bigger than a 2/4 to me but she may have been smaller a year or so previous. (This is a lenghty thread so perhaps it has already been mentioned.)

Funny you should mention this, Stan. These 'weekday' bloomies from Bloomindales were very popular among young women in the late 70's/early '80's. Many of my friends had them and of course they were the size 12-14 which easily fit a slender 2-6 sized woman. They must have retained their popularity since they were still on the market in the '90's. Although meant for little girls, they were a fad for young women.

The packages came with 8 pair of undies; one day was repeated and the most popular package was the one with an extra Wednesday panty as Wednesday was 'hump' day, therefore a party night in Atlanta and SOME young ladies changed into fresh panties at work before going out for the night.

I have wondered if PR bought the panties for herself, they didn't fit as she had gained weight after 2 babies and this is why they were allegedly to be 'repackaged' for a niece that they wouldn't fit either.

 

[BOESP]

Doors always open in to a room. Its a building code thing.

Thanks andreww, but I'm not sure that code applies to interior doors in basements on a house as old as the Ramseys.

Where I live there is no code for either interior or exterior doors unless it is a very recent code. Colorado may be different.

 

[TeaTime]

I commend you on a totally new and interesting take on the night's events! The main problem I see with this theory is that if this happened it's so truly an accident without any malicious intent. The parents were right there. They would have called 911, I imagine, without any worries or hesitation.

PR did not want to tell JR that Burke played with a hockey puck/stick/golf club as he had been forbidden to do so by JR. JBR was 'passed out' when they got home,per the R's. PR didn't think the injury was a mortal wound, she was listening to Nedra and wanting to believe that it was just swelling. She took JBR downstairs to the kitchen to eat the pineapple and drink tea as they are diuretics - so said Nedra. PR could not get JBR to eat much of the pineapple, the child was in and out of consciousness but PR thought she was just sleepy - until she couldn't rouse the child at all.

This is when she finally told JR what happened and the staging occurred. They knew that if there was medical intervention, JBR might continue to live in a coma for a long time and chose not to let that happen. When she didn't die naturally but continued to battle for air, they ended her suffering by strangling her with the cord. PR tied the cord around the wrists and JR belittled her as they were too loose. That is why she pulled so hard on the neck cord and shrieked as she was doing it. This is the scream that the neighbor heard - it was PR in agony over what she was doing. JR remarked, "Jesus, Patsy, you are going to decapitate her!"

Neither of them consider this murder because in their eyes, she was already beyond help. They simply hastened her passing to Heaven.

PR then called Nedra again and they concocted the ransom note and practiced it. Someone in GA was supposed to call and read the letter to JR in the morning. I will bet that there was an exact note at the Paugh house in GA for the accomplice but whomever it was refused to participate and the note remained in its original form with "Listen carefully".

As for the angle of the blow, I believe that JBR was lying on the floor, tired while PR chatted away with Mrs. Stine and the boys played with the hockey puck/stick. However, this angle may have been caused by a ricochet of the puck after it hit something else first.

The Stine boy was to spend the night with Burke but the R's said that he didn't because they all were leaving early in the morning. Of all the friends they called that morning, the Stines were not in that group and left for a vacation before LE could interview them about the night's events. The Whites were called, the Stines were not but the Stines moved to GA when the Ramseys moved.

The 'small foreign faction' was in fact the Paugh family. They were foreign to JR as they were southern and he was not. They were odd to him with their southern accents and ways but Nedra complimented JR on his manners as being like a southern gentleman.

BTW "Paugh" is pronounced BOURG or BORG. In German, the pau is pronounced as bor.

PR was the victim of incest as was Pam. Nedra worried that one day one would become Ms. America and then reveal that they were survivors of incest. She worried the same about JBR. PR was identical to a young Nedra with a wide space between their beautiful eyes.


Of course, these are my opinions based upon everything I know about the R family and people in general.

 

[InstantProof]

Yes.
…

AK

So, neither parent can remember writing the captions of their kids photos or recognize their own handwriting? Logically, they are lying, or someone else wrote them. Someone who's writing is very close to the RN. Seems like an important clue, if there was an intruder and they honestly don't know who wrote in their photo album.

 

[BBB167893]

Yeah, and if you had asked them at the time the detectives believed they did a good job of handeling the crime scene. Arnt is an idiot, what detective in their right mind when they are on a crime scene would allow people to tramp all over the place looking for clues????? She was the freaking detective and it was her job to look for clues.[/I]

Don't change the subject!

 

[BBB167893]

WTH are you trying to prove with this.

You wanted to know what made me think that the Rs were not the "normal" people you make them out to be. That's one big thing. I've seen some outlandish behavior on the part of these pageant parents, but Patsy was extreme even by those high (or low, depending on your POV) standards.

 

[BBB167893]

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. He starts by calling it trace and then refers to it as scientific. I may have quoted it wrong but the gist is the same.

More like you're trying to make a mole hill out of a mountain.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't care what Ron Walker says, the socio economic criteria for mothers that kill their children shows that it is highly UN-likely that Patsy did it, the odds are in her favor.

Leaving aside my temptation to quote Han Solo, you might want to take a closer look at that criteria: it refers to premeditated murder. I don't think that's what happened.

 

[BBB167893]

I'm gonna take a tip from what you said to AK - I'm sick of arguing the point with you. You can have that one.

Smart. That's a fight you can't win.

 

[BBB167893]

And a good parent's job is to be in charge and place controls on these childish urges if said urges/wants could cause possible harm. Children love lots of things that are either harmful or potentially harmful.

BBM: I agree; that Las Vegas showgirl outfit doesn't make the parents child killers but it sure makes them look like lousy parents, imo. Who in their right mind would want to encourage such thoughts and behavior in their 5-6 year old daughter?

Let me add something to that, BOESP. And I am NOT by any means trying to slime the Van Dams--they're heroic in my book. But if you compared the two sets of parents, and the ONLY thing you knew about them was their socio-economic status and their habits, which one would you think was more likely to have killed one of their children?

I think I will quote Han Solo: never tell me the odds.

 

[BBB167893]

Patsy Ramsey was diagnosed with ovarian cancer in June 1993. By Dec. 26, 1993 she was cancer free. So at the time of JB's death she was in remission. People are joyous when they are in remission.

According to Lin Wood Patsy's attorney in 2006 the cancer didn't return until three previously in 2003, long after JB's death.

Begging your pardon, TexasTuff, but this is something I know about. Cancer is practically my nemesis. And when you get it, even if you seem to beat it, it's ALWAYS on your mind.

 

[BBB167893]

Go ahead. Show that they did it.
…

AK

Where would you like me to begin, Anti-K? Or more accurately, which of my previous answers to that challenge would you like me to find?

There is another option, of course.

 

[BBB167893]

There is a difference between something being done badly and not being done at all. In this case, staging someone coming in from the outside didn’t happen at all.
…

AK

I seriously don't see how you can say that. The words "staging WITHIN staging" were used here (emphasis mine).

I just don't understand why so many people expect the Rs to have become expert criminals instantly. Admittedly, they were fairly intelligent, but knowledge is not the same as wisdom. An accountant is smart, but that doesn't mean he's qualified to perform surgery. You follow?

 

[BBB167893]

The real issue with socio economic differences is that rich people tend to get away with things far more often. Rich people get amazing lawyers. Rich people are not instantly suspected. There is less of a criminal stereotype with the wealthy.

Those things happened here, all right.

 

[BBB167893]

No, I don't think anyone was bought off. I think I already explained it. In your own theory, you said statistics say lower class people statistically are more likely to murder their own children, so therefore you believe this is evidence that the Ramsey's are innocent. I was pointing out this is illogical. Rich people can get away with things easier. The police didn't suspect this nice rich family of much in the very beginning and kind of screwed up searching the house and getting evidence properly. Also, this family had a lawyer advising them before the body was discovered. Rich people can do that - get a lawyer on their side in just a little bit.

I was simply pointing out that the statistics probably don't account for the wealthy people who did this and got away with it (the cases who did go to trial as well as cases who never went to trial.) So I wonder if these statistics are skewed because really this is evidence of people who did NOT get away with murder. Less educated and poor people seem like exactly the kind of people who would not get away with murder.

An excellent point that I had not considered, Ellie9.

Let me add this, too: whether people were bought off or not is one thing. I don't necessarily believe that. But it's clear that the DA's office didn't think they had what it took to go against the high-powered lawyers John Ramsey's money had bought. There are many possibilities for that, and I've certainly enumerated them.