That's because their families generally start talking. In this case everyone in the family is either dead or has had their mouth sewn shut.
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Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll
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That's because their families generally start talking. In this case everyone in the family is either dead or has had their mouth sewn shut.
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They did. The foreign faction remember? They realized quickly that LE wasn't buying that so they shifted gears to LHP.
Your problem AK is that you expect there to be some kind of perfect plan that the Ramsey's devised. You can't accept the fact that the plan was liquid and the Ramsey's simply went where it took them.
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InstantProof
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I think it was meant to be that LHP was the informant for some friends or family members or just general shady people she could be in contact with.
TeaTime,
Nice summary of events, not much to disagree about.
BBM: JR might have moved JonBenet's body, this might be why she was explicitly wrapped in a blanket, i.e. a forensic boundary and the wrist restraints might also have been applied at this point, since as postmortem staging they are unconvincing, i.e. loose.
Everyone has their favorite narrative for their RDI theory, those that promote a sole wine-cellar staging suggest FW missed JonBenet due to her being in dimmed light partially out of view, this may be the case?
JR could have moved JonBenet, particularly if he roughly knew where everyone was, i.e. enough time to execute the transfer.
Also JR might have placed the other related items, found in the wine-cellar at the same time, or they might be incidental?
Who removed the size-12's, was it Patsy?
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I just don't see Fleet sticking his head in that door, not seeing anything (due to darkness) and calling it a day. I just feel that he must have had some kind of view of the room, and Jonbenet was in an obvious position. I'm having a hard time believing that he would have missed her. I think John moved here, but I don't think it was a drastic move.
andreww,
FW is a credible witness, I do not doubt what he says he saw or not. JR moving JonBenet whilst still inside the wine-cellar is an ad-hoc adjustment to prior RDI theories, which may or may not be correct.
Why would JR do this if he then finds JonBenet himself, why not wait for FW to search the wine-cellar again?
Those wrist restraints, to me, are a give-away, since if enacted postmortem and prior to JonBenet being allegedly placed into the wine-cellar, then they should be more convincing.
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otg
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Thanks, Cranberry. Pinning this on LHP began (IMO) even before the police arrived. The Ramseys told investigators early on that the RN had been left on the stairway where she and Patsy communicated with one another. Patsy told them that LHP needed money and was asking them to loan $2,000 to her. (I still suspect that adding the $2,000 to $118,000 gives a round number of $120,000 which might have meant something significant relating to the Pughs that the Ramseys had hoped would be discovered by investigators.) The fact that there were no obvious signs of a break-in (remember... John didn't even mention the open and broken window in the basement when he later claimed to have discovered and closed it) points to someone who had a key. And then the kicker of all, John's statement to Arndt while kneeling over his dead child's body: "It looks like an inside job." We KNOW he wasn't meaning to suggest a family member. Who else could he have been suggesting in that statement if not LHP?
The portion of interview you quoted from the first actual interview after this was no longer a kidnapping case shows that in those early hours the Ramseys were openly speculating on LHP's involvement -- even to the point of Patsy saying that when she looked at the writing, "it might have looked a little like hers..." :lol: Really?
SapphireSteel
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You either believe RDI
or
its time to get busy making Reindeer biscuits
IMHO
or
its time to get busy making Reindeer biscuits
IMHO
I think this is so likely - the narcissism. PR particularly seemed to be one. It was said that whatever child she directed her attention the most towards would start having issues, such as bedwetting. Also it's pretty clear she was trying to make JBR a reflection of herself. The pageants are obvious, but then PR also literally dressed JBR in outfits that matched her. She made her look like her little twin. Then that fateful Christmas day, 1996, Patsy gave JBR a doll called My Twinn Doll. It is made to look like JBR and had outfits for the both of them to match. Reportedly, JBR didn't like this gift so much and shrugged it off. PR claims it was her big special present - which is odd considering they gave her a bike. IMO it was probably because she was getting real sick of the whole twin thing, and maybe PR started to finally see that JBR was getting sick of her s***. Then it got worse when JBR didn't want to wear matching clothes for the White's party. Reportedly, there was a spat over this - over JBR's outfit choice. Patsy's little 'twin' was started to show her own personality and she was starting to rebel. This is crazy-making stuff for a narcissist.
I'm not completely sure on my theory of which RDI but I guess I'm saying IF PR was the one who caused the blow to JBR's head, this could easily have been the beginning of her unravelling that day. JBR rejected PR (at least) twice, and if there's something that drives any narcissist more crazy than usual, it's rejection from their mini-me, or golden child.
Exactly Ellie. The bit about the bedwetting being connected to the focus of attention was one of the major things that lead me to this (other than all the little things that added up). I'm reminded of how Nedra replied to a question of what if JB didn't want to be Miss America? and she said "We will say Jonbenét you will!" I suspect this willpower and control was used on PR and her sister Pam when they were growing up. People have noted that Pam let herself go considerably, a far change from her beauty pageant days (they sometimes say this is evidence of previous sexual abuse, but I don't think thats enough evidence). This can be a reflection of taking control of her own life by no longer trying to be thin or beautiful. We've noted many times that PR is image focused. An element of this is a desire to please others, to live up to or exceed expectations.
Imagine a person with NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) and combine it with a manic episode. Then you could get a potent mix that could lead to dangerous behavior. Neither of these things are what people expect when they say "mentally ill". NPD is usually just brushed off by acquaintances as a personality quirk (we all know N.'s who are not pathological about it). And manic episodes can also just be seen as normal, as the person can seem happy and just have a lot of energy etc. But behind closed doors these things can be much, much worse. It is possible that PR has some of the symptoms of BipolarII. This is similar to bipolar disorder except that there are not so much up and down cycles as there is a great deal of manic energy. Miss Do-It-All, Miss Exceed Expectations, Miss Colorado Christmas Queen etc, etc. Again, this is not what people usually call "mentally ill", instead calling it "Type A" or something. It can obviously be unhealthy sometimes though. Remember that last picture of JB and PR? She's got kind of wide eyes, that could be a sign of mania (this is not the same thing as being a 'maniac').
I don't know which RDI scenario I like either. I don't truly believe that PR by herself was capable of this. I think everyone in the family played a role. This is how it works in households like this. The Golden Child, The Scapegoat, The Aggressor etc. This is established in psychology, I'm not just making it up.
Imagine, if you will something like this:
BR has been resentful of JB & his mother. He is a bright kid, which makes him very sensitive. He has problems that are not being acknowledged or taken care of (like Kolar suggests, SBP combined with emotional problems). On christmas his mother lavishes JB with gifts. Special doll and a new bike. BR got a nintendo, sure. But remember being 9? I have 3 younger siblings and remember how it felt when your younger siblings are being given something you perceive to be better.
Perhaps this leads to a confrontation later. B is tired, maybe hasn't eaten much, maybe he's anxious about the trips, and is very irritable. JB does one more thing to annoy him (took some of his pineapple? resisted his advances?). It's the last straw. He lashes out, and hard. Perhaps he has some manic tendencies as well, which can cause unusual strength with adrenaline. He wants to kill her, or maybe he just really wants to hurt her (he probably doesn't know about killing). He throws her around. She gets hurt, badly.
Eventually PR finds her baby. The scene is beyond shocking. In her possibly manic mindset, she goes into overdrive. Mania can also cause disordered thinking. Maybe disordered enough to think the best thing to do is cover all this up.
Obviously this is all conjecture. I'm not even 100% behind that scenario, it's just more of an idea of how these kind of mindsets could work. This scene could work with other R's as well. With different triggers for violence (PR walks in on JR, or whatever).
I really think there is something to the NPD idea. This could have been enough to cause damage to the children without being what most people would recognize as abuse. Most people would have thought something like "Well the R's were a little weird, PR was something else, but they seemed like good people." Our resident IDI's refuse to believe they were bad enough to abuse their children, but abuse isn't always obvious.
Imagine a person with NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) and combine it with a manic episode. Then you could get a potent mix that could lead to dangerous behavior. Neither of these things are what people expect when they say "mentally ill". NPD is usually just brushed off by acquaintances as a personality quirk (we all know N.'s who are not pathological about it). And manic episodes can also just be seen as normal, as the person can seem happy and just have a lot of energy etc. But behind closed doors these things can be much, much worse. It is possible that PR has some of the symptoms of BipolarII. This is similar to bipolar disorder except that there are not so much up and down cycles as there is a great deal of manic energy. Miss Do-It-All, Miss Exceed Expectations, Miss Colorado Christmas Queen etc, etc. Again, this is not what people usually call "mentally ill", instead calling it "Type A" or something. It can obviously be unhealthy sometimes though. Remember that last picture of JB and PR? She's got kind of wide eyes, that could be a sign of mania (this is not the same thing as being a 'maniac').
I don't know which RDI scenario I like either. I don't truly believe that PR by herself was capable of this. I think everyone in the family played a role. This is how it works in households like this. The Golden Child, The Scapegoat, The Aggressor etc. This is established in psychology, I'm not just making it up.
Imagine, if you will something like this:
BR has been resentful of JB & his mother. He is a bright kid, which makes him very sensitive. He has problems that are not being acknowledged or taken care of (like Kolar suggests, SBP combined with emotional problems). On christmas his mother lavishes JB with gifts. Special doll and a new bike. BR got a nintendo, sure. But remember being 9? I have 3 younger siblings and remember how it felt when your younger siblings are being given something you perceive to be better.
Perhaps this leads to a confrontation later. B is tired, maybe hasn't eaten much, maybe he's anxious about the trips, and is very irritable. JB does one more thing to annoy him (took some of his pineapple? resisted his advances?). It's the last straw. He lashes out, and hard. Perhaps he has some manic tendencies as well, which can cause unusual strength with adrenaline. He wants to kill her, or maybe he just really wants to hurt her (he probably doesn't know about killing). He throws her around. She gets hurt, badly.
Eventually PR finds her baby. The scene is beyond shocking. In her possibly manic mindset, she goes into overdrive. Mania can also cause disordered thinking. Maybe disordered enough to think the best thing to do is cover all this up.
Obviously this is all conjecture. I'm not even 100% behind that scenario, it's just more of an idea of how these kind of mindsets could work. This scene could work with other R's as well. With different triggers for violence (PR walks in on JR, or whatever).
I really think there is something to the NPD idea. This could have been enough to cause damage to the children without being what most people would recognize as abuse. Most people would have thought something like "Well the R's were a little weird, PR was something else, but they seemed like good people." Our resident IDI's refuse to believe they were bad enough to abuse their children, but abuse isn't always obvious.
Great point about the possibility that NPD could have caused Burke to lash out. You're right in that the non-golden-child (or children) will deeply resent the favourite one. My own family played favourites and it led to my sister and I not even speaking to each other as adults. Ever. If one of us dies the other won't go to the funeral, I know this, and I don't even care. That's how badly it divides siblings - and from descriptions of BR here and there I find, he seemed resentful to say the least.
A lot of abuse goes on behind closed doors, and no one outside knows. It's not hard for families to hide abuse, especially wealthier families who almost always get the benefit of the doubt. In this case it was reported that JBR appeared to have suffered chronic sexual abuse, so I'm not even sure why IDI's won't believe she could have been abused. People can debate all day and night over spanking but I think everyone is on the same page about performing sexual acts on a six year old. So I guess the denial of abuse is frustrating considering it is based on medical evidence and not pure conjecture.
I had another thought on PR. This may seem out of the blue, but I think it ties in with this NPD discussion. NPD people seem to have a constant need for attention. JBR went to the doctor around 27 times in a 3 year period. (source) Is it possible that PR could be making JBR sick or appear sick for attention? A lot of times, not always, this game of pretending you have a sick child ultimately ends with the child's death, because there's nothing more attention grabbing than that. I mean, she wanted attention so badly that after the murder she basically invites the whole neighbourhood over at once, I mean, just so everyone can see how much she's suffering I guess. Just so she gets a lot of hugs and reassurances. And she did this after reading a note that said if she talks a stray dog JBR dies, and before the body was found.
My thoughts here may be interpreted wrong, but it's just something I thought of and wanted to share to see anyone else's take on this idea.
*Personal Anecdote, ignore if you just want to talk about the case*
I had a similar situation with my own sister actually, which gave me a little insight into how that happens. Sibling relationships can be very complicated. I'm about 3.5 years older than my sister (close to BR & JB's difference) and I know how things can escalate. My sister is also severely bipolar so things could really get out of hand. Additionally my father I suspect of having NPD (he doesn't believe in psychiatry for himself, because he's perfect, so undiagnosed
). She was super out-going, a performer, blonde with blue eyes, adults loved her. I was quiet, shy, sensitive, awkward, oldest child. I know this is just personal anecdotal information, but I just want to illustrate the similarities between the relationship between BR and JB. My sister and I were always at each other's throats. It started when she was young. We did get physically violent more than once (more than I can count honestly). She pulled a knife on me when she was probably 12. She's thrown things at me and we've been in fist fights. She's younger, but way more aggressive than me, I'm more passive. If I had been the aggressive one, at a young age I bet I could have really hurt her. We're both female, just in case thats not known.We were not abused in a way that any outsider would recognize. Emotionally perhaps. We were always well provided for and had nice things, like the R children (not to that level though.) Even just a few months ago I got in an altercation with her (she lives nearby and drops by, I wish she'd ignore me!). Things can get nasty between siblings, there is so much emotionally at stake.
*End of anecdote*
Anyhow, enough of the biography. I just recognize how a situation could arise and get quickly out of hand. Even in the best families.
Now onto the bit about PR. I don't think it's too out there to suggest that PR would take JB to the Dr. a lot for attention. I don't know if she was making her sick, I doubt that (most of her doctor's visits were for respiratory/sinus problems). The R's did have a special relationship with the doctor that is worth mentioning. Dr. Beuf (funny name, Dr. Beef) went to the same church as the R's. He was a family friend, he was over at the Fernie's house the night of the 26th administering medicine to PR. He actually told LE that she was not available to speak because she was heavily medicated. I think he continued to prescribe medication even though he was not their doctor, but rather a pediatrician.
Its pretty obvious that PR used JB for attention. I can't imagine little JB at 4 was begging to enter pageants.
The way she invited all her friends over that morning is puzzling to me, as I'm sure it is to most people. Shrewd decision though, they served many purposes. They were her audience, her comfort, her buffer between her and John, her and LE. They muddied up the crime scene. They brought bagels for god's sake. It probably helped her act correctly because she was comfortable around her friends, she might have cracked if alone with LE. All in all, there is no real benefit to their presence if innocent.
IDIs usually just flat out deny that there is evidence of chronic abuse. It doesn't fit with an intruder, and everyone with close access to JB has been looked at. They'll look high and low to find some "expert" who agrees with their idea and ignore the dozens of others who disagree. There were several doctors consulted by the ME (Dr. Meyer? idr) and many more after and the conclusion is that she was indeed abused before the night she died. I suspect that the reason she was penetrated that night is because someone knew her hymen was broken (or saw blood and assumed that happened) and wanted to explain why. Poor thing. I remember reading somewhere that JB frequently would visit the school nurse on Mondays, after the weekend. Its not impossible that PR would be the molester, it does happen. I can't really see her as the sole perpetrator of this crime though.
Anti-K
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My problem is this:
1) I think the case against the Ramseys is very weak and supported primarily by post-offensive behavior, which, after consideration, IMO, amounts to not much more than reason for initial suspicion and investigation.
2) I find the exculpatory evidence compelling.
3) Some of this exculpatory evidence is also evidence that could be evidence left by her killer, and that could even help to identify him, and effort to find innocent explanations failed. I find that significant.
4) While acknowledging that the simplest solution isnt necessarily the right solution, I find the simplicity of IDI explanations to be persuasive.
I certainly dont have any problem thinking that this had to have been some kind of perfect plan that the Ramsey's devised. I dont think thats true, regardless of whose plan it was. And, the plan was liquid is exactly what I envision; except, you know IDI, eh. When IDI talk about the killer using items from the home, this is what they are talking about. He came with a plan, he had the basics and brought what he knew he needed and the rest was left to how things played out what would he find? What would really happen vs what he thought would happen. Shift, flow, adapt. Improvise. Exactly.
AK
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Some posters have done some extensive, and impressive research on this subject why White did not see the body. How long does it take for eyes to adjust, did the drive in the dark impact this vision, did the time of day when each opened the door play a role, did the light in the ceiling and the height difference between White and Ramsey cause one to see further into the room; etc. I think the explanation is simple. It is an established fact that people often do not see the unexpected. Im not joking. You can look this up. Better yet, get a copy of The Invisible Gorilla and read it. Survey says! Studies show. Science, eh. Most people looking into that room would not have seen the body, either. Simply because, even if looking, they wouldnt have expected to; shed been kidnapped. And, that is the simplest answer to the question, why didnt White see the body.
AK
FW didn't see the body because it was not in that spot when he opened the door. The room was is tiny and a dead 6 year old, wrapped in a white blanket laying on the barren floor would be noticed. She wasn't hidden behind anything, she was right there in front of the door. LE turned all the lights on in the basement when they searched. FW doesn't remember if they were on or off, so IDI believes that LE turned out the lights and FW stumbled around in the dark. Pah. His eyes weren't playing tricks on him; the Rs were.
You are using a study about seeing or not seeing unexpected things. I don't see how that applies in this case. Fleet is looking for jonbenet. He opens the door and doesn't see her lying in front of him because he doesn't expect her to be there? You do realize how ridiculous that sounds right?
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And to go along with this, JR found her really easily. Instantly. If one is assuming IDI, that would mean JR would be searching for exactly whatever Fleet was searching for.
Thats a good point. But we really don't know how many times John was down there do we? I believe Fleet looked in there quite early right? Then, some believe that John actually finds the body at about 11:00 am. If the body wasn't there when Fleet looked, there is the possibility that it was concealed or hidden farther back in that room. It would make sense that he would uncover her and possibly try to revive her. This is when I'd assume that John may have removed the duct tape and tried to loosen the restraints. Its also possible that he is putting two and two together and starting to suspect that his wife and or son has something to do with this.
There are just way too many sloppy things going on here from an IDI perspective. Fleet looks in the room and doesn't notice the body lying 2 feet in front of him. John checks the main floor doors saying they are locked, but then one is miraculously found wide open.
I think it seems pretty likely that she was in a different position in the room. It's kind of L shaped, or at least the door is all the way to the right. If she was further in the room and more to the left closer to the opposite wall that could explain why she wasn't seen. The light from the open door would not have reached over there possibly.
I know some people think John wasn't clued in until later, but I have some difficulty believing that. Why would he lie about Burke being awake? If totally innocent he would have no reason to conceal that. I believe that I do hear BR's voice on the 911 call. Its a distinctly different tone than PR and much too high pitched to be John. It sounds like a child, even if I do have some trouble hearing the words.
Everyone seems to give JR a pass. Steve Thomas did, even the media that believes RDI gives him a pass too. JR and his lawyers/investigators were able to control the situation from day 1. R investigators were interviewing Fleet White the night of the 26th. They were getting to the witnesses before the cops could. They could shape the stories, influence memories. Once they tell the story to one investigator, they're likely to say something similar to the next investigator, with the crucial difference being how the first person asked the questions. If they're smart, which they were, they would know how to ask questions to influence people (think of how headlines in the news are very carefully phrased to shape opinions, same idea). These same investigators are the one's who got Melanie Stanton to change her story later, from a scream to just "negative energy" IIRC.
This team of investigators also included the handwriting experts that quickly excluded JR. If anyone has read DocG's theory (solvingjonbenet blog, can't access it at work to link), you can see an example of JR's handwriting that doesn't look as dissimilar as we've been lead to believe. I more strongly believe that PR wrote it, but just some food for thought.
I think that if he was involved with the staging, he might have done the dirty work. Maybe PR handled the cord before he did, transferring the fibers. Maybe he cleaned her. There are unidentified fibers, what if JR was already in his PJs when something went down? Did they take all his clothes? I doubt it. I believe that if he was indeed involved in this way, he went to take a shower to clear himself of any forensic evidence. In this scenario I think PR would have been working on her note the whole time, practicing, getting it right. She would have been emotional, so it wouldn't have been easy for her to just whip it out. Perhaps she was so distraught that she ran out of time to shower. People say "they could have just waited to call the cops" but I think they would have seen the scheduled wake up time as a deadline. They want it to appear like everything was normal before finding the note, they probably didn't even consider that they could have waited. I know the note says not to call cops, but I think the note was mostly to explain why she was dead. If they had waited and not called the cops, they probably thought the cops would take a much harder look at them.
Just some ideas.
I know some people think John wasn't clued in until later, but I have some difficulty believing that. Why would he lie about Burke being awake? If totally innocent he would have no reason to conceal that. I believe that I do hear BR's voice on the 911 call. Its a distinctly different tone than PR and much too high pitched to be John. It sounds like a child, even if I do have some trouble hearing the words.
Everyone seems to give JR a pass. Steve Thomas did, even the media that believes RDI gives him a pass too. JR and his lawyers/investigators were able to control the situation from day 1. R investigators were interviewing Fleet White the night of the 26th. They were getting to the witnesses before the cops could. They could shape the stories, influence memories. Once they tell the story to one investigator, they're likely to say something similar to the next investigator, with the crucial difference being how the first person asked the questions. If they're smart, which they were, they would know how to ask questions to influence people (think of how headlines in the news are very carefully phrased to shape opinions, same idea). These same investigators are the one's who got Melanie Stanton to change her story later, from a scream to just "negative energy" IIRC.
This team of investigators also included the handwriting experts that quickly excluded JR. If anyone has read DocG's theory (solvingjonbenet blog, can't access it at work to link), you can see an example of JR's handwriting that doesn't look as dissimilar as we've been lead to believe. I more strongly believe that PR wrote it, but just some food for thought.
I think that if he was involved with the staging, he might have done the dirty work. Maybe PR handled the cord before he did, transferring the fibers. Maybe he cleaned her. There are unidentified fibers, what if JR was already in his PJs when something went down? Did they take all his clothes? I doubt it. I believe that if he was indeed involved in this way, he went to take a shower to clear himself of any forensic evidence. In this scenario I think PR would have been working on her note the whole time, practicing, getting it right. She would have been emotional, so it wouldn't have been easy for her to just whip it out. Perhaps she was so distraught that she ran out of time to shower. People say "they could have just waited to call the cops" but I think they would have seen the scheduled wake up time as a deadline. They want it to appear like everything was normal before finding the note, they probably didn't even consider that they could have waited. I know the note says not to call cops, but I think the note was mostly to explain why she was dead. If they had waited and not called the cops, they probably thought the cops would take a much harder look at them.
Just some ideas.
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