Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[SapphireSteel]

I think it seems pretty likely that she was in a different position in the room. It's kind of L shaped, or at least the door is all the way to the right. If she was further in the room and more to the left closer to the opposite wall that could explain why she wasn't seen. The light from the open door would not have reached over there possibly.

I know some people think John wasn't clued in until later, but I have some difficulty believing that. Why would he lie about Burke being awake? If totally innocent he would have no reason to conceal that. I believe that I do hear BR's voice on the 911 call. Its a distinctly different tone than PR and much too high pitched to be John. It sounds like a child, even if I do have some trouble hearing the words.

Everyone seems to give JR a pass. Steve Thomas did, even the media that believes RDI gives him a pass too. JR and his lawyers/investigators were able to control the situation from day 1. R investigators were interviewing Fleet White the night of the 26th. They were getting to the witnesses before the cops could. They could shape the stories, influence memories. Once they tell the story to one investigator, they're likely to say something similar to the next investigator, with the crucial difference being how the first person asked the questions. If they're smart, which they were, they would know how to ask questions to influence people (think of how headlines in the news are very carefully phrased to shape opinions, same idea). These same investigators are the one's who got Melanie Stanton to change her story later, from a scream to just "negative energy" IIRC.

This team of investigators also included the handwriting experts that quickly excluded JR. If anyone has read DocG's theory (solvingjonbenet blog, can't access it at work to link), you can see an example of JR's handwriting that doesn't look as dissimilar as we've been lead to believe. I more strongly believe that PR wrote it, but just some food for thought.

I think that if he was involved with the staging, he might have done the dirty work. Maybe PR handled the cord before he did, transferring the fibers. Maybe he cleaned her. There are unidentified fibers, what if JR was already in his PJs when something went down? Did they take all his clothes? I doubt it. I believe that if he was indeed involved in this way, he went to take a shower to clear himself of any forensic evidence. In this scenario I think PR would have been working on her note the whole time, practicing, getting it right. She would have been emotional, so it wouldn't have been easy for her to just whip it out. Perhaps she was so distraught that she ran out of time to shower. People say "they could have just waited to call the cops" but I think they would have seen the scheduled wake up time as a deadline. They want it to appear like everything was normal before finding the note, they probably didn't even consider that they could have waited. I know the note says not to call cops, but I think the note was mostly to explain why she was dead. If they had waited and not called the cops, they probably thought the cops would take a much harder look at them.

Just some ideas.

I don't give him a pass.

Logic and statistics states that He was the One responsible for JB's vaginal condition

Logic and statistics implies that he was the Murderer also.

Personally I wonder if he made the garrotte then forced Patsy to use it too

We don't know what level of Domestic Violence was being covered up there

Statistically speaking, JR is the Murderer and Rapist.

 

[andreww]

I think it seems pretty likely that she was in a different position in the room. It's kind of L shaped, or at least the door is all the way to the right. If she was further in the room and more to the left closer to the opposite wall that could explain why she wasn't seen. The light from the open door would not have reached over there possibly.

I know some people think John wasn't clued in until later, but I have some difficulty believing that. Why would he lie about Burke being awake? If totally innocent he would have no reason to conceal that. I believe that I do hear BR's voice on the 911 call. Its a distinctly different tone than PR and much too high pitched to be John. It sounds like a child, even if I do have some trouble hearing the words.

Everyone seems to give JR a pass. Steve Thomas did, even the media that believes RDI gives him a pass too. JR and his lawyers/investigators were able to control the situation from day 1. R investigators were interviewing Fleet White the night of the 26th. They were getting to the witnesses before the cops could. They could shape the stories, influence memories. Once they tell the story to one investigator, they're likely to say something similar to the next investigator, with the crucial difference being how the first person asked the questions. If they're smart, which they were, they would know how to ask questions to influence people (think of how headlines in the news are very carefully phrased to shape opinions, same idea). These same investigators are the one's who got Melanie Stanton to change her story later, from a scream to just "negative energy" IIRC.

This team of investigators also included the handwriting experts that quickly excluded JR. If anyone has read DocG's theory (solvingjonbenet blog, can't access it at work to link), you can see an example of JR's handwriting that doesn't look as dissimilar as we've been lead to believe. I more strongly believe that PR wrote it, but just some food for thought.

I think that if he was involved with the staging, he might have done the dirty work. Maybe PR handled the cord before he did, transferring the fibers. Maybe he cleaned her. There are unidentified fibers, what if JR was already in his PJs when something went down? Did they take all his clothes? I doubt it. I believe that if he was indeed involved in this way, he went to take a shower to clear himself of any forensic evidence. In this scenario I think PR would have been working on her note the whole time, practicing, getting it right. She would have been emotional, so it wouldn't have been easy for her to just whip it out. Perhaps she was so distraught that she ran out of time to shower. People say "they could have just waited to call the cops" but I think they would have seen the scheduled wake up time as a deadline. They want it to appear like everything was normal before finding the note, they probably didn't even consider that they could have waited. I know the note says not to call cops, but I think the note was mostly to explain why she was dead. If they had waited and not called the cops, they probably thought the cops would take a much harder look at them.

Just some ideas.

Anna, I understand your position on John, especially considering the whole Burke was sleeping story. But remember, most of what you are hearing about the mornings events came from later statements. I'm not even positive that the subject was broached the morning of the crime. Where the Ramsey's specifically asked if Burke was asleep? Didn't John tell LE that Burke had been sleeping and didn't hear anything? That would indicate that at some point he was awake and that they had discussed it. So if they weren't specifically asked, there would have been no reason for John to mention Burke hanging around during the 911 call.


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[andreww]

I don't give him a pass.

Logic and statistics states that He was the One responsible for JB's vaginal condition

Logic and statistics implies that he was the Murderer also.

Personally I wonder if he made the garrotte then forced Patsy to use it too

We don't know what level of Domestic Violence was being covered up there

Statistically speaking, JR is the Murderer and Rapist.

Logic doesn't state anything of the sort. Children can be abused by anybody that happens to be around, be it a father, brother, uncle, friend, teacher, neighbor, priest, etc, etc. In fact, if this crime is rooted in sexual assault, the fact that there is so much physical evidence from Burke and Patsy, it is very unlikely John had anything to do with it. Unless this is one severely twisted family that is.


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[SapphireSteel]

Logic doesn't state anything of the sort. Children can be abused by anybody that happens to be around, be it a father, brother, uncle, friend, teacher, neighbor, priest, etc, etc. In fact, if this crime is rooted in sexual assault, the fact that there is so much physical evidence from Burke and Patsy, it is very unlikely John had anything to do with it. Unless this is one severely twisted family that is.

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Statistically, evidentially, that's exactly what the Ramseys were.

Severe domestic abuse explains everything - the event itself, Patsy composing the Ransom Note complete with ginormous hint towards John, Burke refusing to speak to this day - he may STILL be John's victim.

It would explain Patsy ignoring Jonbenets injuries, and/or repeatedly taking her to the doctor in a desperate attempt to get attention and help for HERSELF.

It would explain the Big Panties - if Burke came in, found his sister spread eagled, tried in his childish way to cover her

It would explain everything including the weird behavior the next day

Plain old fashioned Domestic Violence gone too far. A Controller (he was a CEO right? Ran for Office too?) and he got away with it all by blaming his dominated abused and unwell wife.

Makes the most sense, is statistically 1000x more likely than the Invisible Man theory.

Happens all the time in houses all over the world. The only difference is, the perp usually isn't a stone cold predator.

 

[Annapurna]

Andreww, I thought he was asked at least, if they could talk to Burke. I recall that JR was said to have stated "He doesn't know anything, he was asleep." as he was whisking BR away to the White's house (at 7:30 am, so before the 11am idea). So no, technically he didn't get asked about the 911 call, but that still suggests he was lying. Maybe he really wasn't directly involved in anything, but he had to have known shortly after that there was something that needed to be covered up.

I know what you're saying Sapphire, it usually is the adult male in the household before anyone else. There are scenarios I believe that could account for him being involved in the SA without being the killer. I remember when I first started getting into RDI I had the idea that perhaps PR walked in on JR molesting JB and in her fury, hit JB. Or in the darkness, thought it was a real intruder hurting her baby and in her fear hit JB. JR & PR would then both have something to hide. Especially if we do think that JR was a domestic abuser, he would have been in control. He could have said something like "If you go to the police I'll tell them you killed her".

That said it is possible that PR was sexually abusing her too. It does happen, mother on daughter. Of course it is more rare. That said it must be equally rare for one child to victimize another, particularly if they had not been abused themselves.

 

[Anti-K]

You are using a study about seeing or not seeing unexpected things. I don't see how that applies in this case. Fleet is looking for jonbenet. He opens the door and doesn't see her lying in front of him because he doesn't expect her to be there? You do realize how ridiculous that sounds right?


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Fleet was looking for jbr, but I bet he wasn’t expecting to find her, and that he wasn’t really looking that hard. She had been kidnapped.

You can mock all you want, and you can twist what I say all you want, but it is an empirical fact: people often do not see things that are right there in plain sight, right in front of them. True story. I bet it’s happened to you. I bet it’s happened to all of us. Haven’t you ever looked for something, over and over, going back to the same spot over and over only to have someone come along and say, “here it is.” And, it was right there where you left it and where you already looked a thousand times. “Here it is.” Wtf? It happens (with some people it happens all the time!). Welcome to Real Life.

Fleet looked, he didn’t see the body. Ramsey looked, he saw it. You can imagine some bizarre explanation for this, but one isn’t necessary.
…

AK

 

[Ellie9]

Statistically, evidentially, that's exactly what the Ramseys were.

Severe domestic abuse explains everything - the event itself, Patsy composing the Ransom Note complete with ginormous hint towards John, Burke refusing to speak to this day - he may STILL be John's victim.

It would explain Patsy ignoring Jonbenets injuries, and/or repeatedly taking her to the doctor in a desperate attempt to get attention and help for HERSELF.

It would explain the Big Panties - if Burke came in, found his sister spread eagled, tried in his childish way to cover her

It would explain everything including the weird behavior the next day

Plain old fashioned Domestic Violence gone too far. A Controller (he was a CEO right? Ran for Office too?) and he got away with it all by blaming his dominated abused and unwell wife.

Makes the most sense, is statistically 1000x more likely than the Invisible Man theory.

Happens all the time in houses all over the world. The only difference is, the perp usually isn't a stone cold predator.

These are interesting thoughts, but in this one particular case it seems to me like patsy is very sure of herself, outspoken, and didn't seem to flinch or look down a lot, which I see in most domestic abuse cases.

I just don't see any "tells" with her being a victim of current abuse. I do see, maybe of interest, her repeatedly shaking her head in the "no" movement when trying to explain the events on Christmas night. This is a "tell" imo that the truth is getting out in her body movements.


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[UKGuy]

Fleet was looking for jbr, but I bet he wasn’t expecting to find her, and that he wasn’t really looking that hard. She had been kidnapped.

You can mock all you want, and you can twist what I say all you want, but it is an empirical fact: people often do not see things that are right there in plain sight, right in front of them. True story. I bet it’s happened to you. I bet it’s happened to all of us. Haven’t you ever looked for something, over and over, going back to the same spot over and over only to have someone come along and say, “here it is.” And, it was right there where you left it and where you already looked a thousand times. “Here it is.” Wtf? It happens (with some people it happens all the time!). Welcome to Real Life.

Fleet looked, he didn’t see the body. Ramsey looked, he saw it. You can imagine some bizarre explanation for this, but one isn’t necessary.
…

AK

Anti-K,

people often do not see things that are right there in plain sight, right in front of them. True story.

But were people asked to lookout for a gorilla?

FW was asked to look for JonBenet, so I might forgive him if he missed JR dressed in a Gorilla suit!

.

 

[UKGuy]

Thats a good point. But we really don't know how many times John was down there do we? I believe Fleet looked in there quite early right? Then, some believe that John actually finds the body at about 11:00 am. If the body wasn't there when Fleet looked, there is the possibility that it was concealed or hidden farther back in that room. It would make sense that he would uncover her and possibly try to revive her. This is when I'd assume that John may have removed the duct tape and tried to loosen the restraints. Its also possible that he is putting two and two together and starting to suspect that his wife and or son has something to do with this.

andreww,

But we really don't know how many times John was down there do we?

Precisely my point.

I believe Fleet looked in there quite early right?

Right, but JR did not know this, he proceeded thinking only he knew the prior layout of the basement.

If the body wasn't there when Fleet looked, there is the possibility that it was concealed or hidden farther back in that room.

Sure or JonBenet was in another basement room? Those wrist restraints are not as convincing as say the ligature.

JR could have wrapped JonBenet in a blanket sourced from the clean washing in the basement, so he could avoid any direct contact, then placed her into the wine-cellar, knowing if nobody found her he could? At the same time he could have fashioned the wrist restraints and simply put the tape on her mouth, thus explaining the fibers on the sticky side?

JR already knew prior to the 911 call, when he replies to BR, We are not talking to you. All three R's are complicit in postmortem staging, its just who did precisely what that is in question?

IMO JR was simply performing ad-hoc staging after the 911 call, including relocating BR out of the house, not required if its PDI, since BR will be passed over by the investigators.

.

 

[InstantProof]

I had another thought on PR. This may seem out of the blue, but I think it ties in with this NPD discussion. NPD people seem to have a constant need for attention. JBR went to the doctor around 27 times in a 3 year period. (source) Is it possible that PR could be making JBR sick or appear sick for attention? A lot of times, not always, this game of pretending you have a sick child ultimately ends with the child's death, because there's nothing more attention grabbing than that. I mean, she wanted attention so badly that after the murder she basically invites the whole neighbourhood over at once, I mean, just so everyone can see how much she's suffering I guess. Just so she gets a lot of hugs and reassurances. And she did this after reading a note that said if she talks a stray dog JBR dies, and before the body was found.

My thoughts here may be interpreted wrong, but it's just something I thought of and wanted to share to see anyone else's take on this idea.

John had already lost a daughter. Was Patsy with him at this time?

 

[InstantProof]

JR already knew prior to the 911 call, when he replies to BR, We are not talking to you.

.

Isn't this an odd thing to say? He's said to sound annoyed, too. Annoyed with Patsy, I have a feeling. Listening to the call again I'm surprised there is no interaction with J&P like you usually hear when there's more than one person present for a frantic 911 call. Even at the end of the call Patsy just talks to herself.

 

[Ellie9]

John had already lost a daughter. Was Patsy with him at this time?

Sounds like Patsy would have been with him at the time, but the daughter was on her own in Chicago. The accident was definitely an accident. I can't see a side-swipe of a truck being anything but a tragic accident.

However, if there is anything to my thoughts you were replying to, maybe that got PR addicted to the kind of attention one gets in these situations.

It's possible, but, my thoughts are just thoughts, I don't have much evidence besides doctors visits to suggest this to be fair. And I guess the doctor visits could suggest a lot of other possibilities.

Isn't this an odd thing to say? He's said to sound annoyed, too. Annoyed with Patsy, I have a feeling. Listening to the call again I'm surprised there is no interaction with J&P like you usually hear when there's more than one person present for a frantic 911 call. Even at the end of the call Patsy just talks to herself.

And that morning he was noticed to just not even bother comforting her. Or they didn't comfort each other, which is what you usually see when both parents are innocent.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Elizabeth Pasch Ramsey, JonBenét’s half-sister, preceded her in death. Elizabeth was the daughter of Lucinda Lou Pasch and John Ramsey. Elizabeth was an airline stewardess. She and her boyfriend, Matthew Derrington, 22, died when his BMW collided with a bakery truck near Chicago during bad weather. Derrington was driving. The other driver was not cited. Elizabeth Ramsey died of massive internal injuries. July 15, 1969 - January 8, 1992 JonBenet was born August 6, 1990

Cause of death: Car accident

 

[Anti-K]

BBM

I think it seems pretty likely that she was in a different position in the room. It's kind of L shaped, or at least the door is all the way to the right. If she was further in the room and more to the left closer to the opposite wall that could explain why she wasn't seen. The light from the open door would not have reached over there possibly.

I know some people think John wasn't clued in until later, but I have some difficulty believing that. Why would he lie about Burke being awake? If totally innocent he would have no reason to conceal that. I believe that I do hear BR's voice on the 911 call. Its a distinctly different tone than PR and much too high pitched to be John. It sounds like a child, even if I do have some trouble hearing the words.

Everyone seems to give JR a pass. Steve Thomas did, even the media that believes RDI gives him a pass too. JR and his lawyers/investigators were able to control the situation from day 1. R investigators were interviewing Fleet White the night of the 26th. They were getting to the witnesses before the cops could. They could shape the stories, influence memories. Once they tell the story to one investigator, they're likely to say something similar to the next investigator, with the crucial difference being how the first person asked the questions. If they're smart, which they were, they would know how to ask questions to influence people (think of how headlines in the news are very carefully phrased to shape opinions, same idea). These same investigators are the one's who got Melanie Stanton to change her story later, from a scream to just "negative energy" IIRC.

This team of investigators also included the handwriting experts that quickly excluded JR. If anyone has read DocG's theory (solvingjonbenet blog, can't access it at work to link), you can see an example of JR's handwriting that doesn't look as dissimilar as we've been lead to believe. I more strongly believe that PR wrote it, but just some food for thought.

I think that if he was involved with the staging, he might have done the dirty work. Maybe PR handled the cord before he did, transferring the fibers. Maybe he cleaned her. There are unidentified fibers, what if JR was already in his PJs when something went down? Did they take all his clothes? I doubt it. I believe that if he was indeed involved in this way, he went to take a shower to clear himself of any forensic evidence. In this scenario I think PR would have been working on her note the whole time, practicing, getting it right. She would have been emotional, so it wouldn't have been easy for her to just whip it out. Perhaps she was so distraught that she ran out of time to shower. People say "they could have just waited to call the cops" but I think they would have seen the scheduled wake up time as a deadline. They want it to appear like everything was normal before finding the note, they probably didn't even consider that they could have waited. I know the note says not to call cops, but I think the note was mostly to explain why she was dead. If they had waited and not called the cops, they probably thought the cops would take a much harder look at them.

Just some ideas.

Docg is quite the character. He has his own logic, which some of us used to refer to as Doc-logic. He actually proves IDI with his theory, and I’m pretty sure that he knows it. To get out of this he always, always starts his theories out by “disproving” any and all possibility of an intruder. Because it is only by eliminating all possibility of an intruder that his argument can lead to Mr Ramsey. I’m a little surprised that he hasn’t been able to convince very many people despite years and years of effort.

Many have tried to tell him that the Mr Ramsey handwriting he uses and that was used by his fav expert Brugnateli (sp?) might actually have been written by Mrs Ramsey. Docg has actually done some pretty good work with the handwriting, some of which should, at least, cause people to question their own certainty on the matter.

I think there are several reasons why many have given Mr Ramsey a “pass.” Lack of evidence is one of them. No discernible motive. Preference for PDI (and, of course, IDI). Etc. But, I also think that the fact that he had recently lost a daughter and was, by some accounts, still mourning that loss played (plays) a role.
…

AK

 

[Annapurna]

As for DocG I am only recommending it for the handwriting sample. I have never seen any substantial (i.e. more than one or two lines) examples of his handwriting anywhere, but there was one other example on his site. They are both cheques if I'm not mistaken. I'd never heard anyone say PR wrote it, so maybe that's true. His theory "proves" nothing. I haven't looked at that site in years so I don't remember much.

If JR is so innocent then why is he such a liar? Why didn't he tell anyone about the window? Why did his stories change? Why didn't he say anything about BR being awake? Why would he try to call Archuleta to get out of town less than an hour after the body was discovered? Why didn't he talk to the police? Why did they wait 4 months to have an interview? Why did he even hire lawyers for his ex-wife and the rest of the family if he had nothing to hide?

They did not cooperate at all, to the point of impeding the investigation. Why wouldn't innocent parents want to find the killer? Look at the family of Daniel van Dam, 10 years after they were still talking about this and pushing for better Amber Alert systems. The R's had the resources to make some real changes happen if they were so concerned about "someone out there." In contrast to the families of Polly Klaas, or Adam Walsh, they took JB's website down. They dissolved her foundation. Why didn't they try to do anything to stop bad guys from hurting little children? Because they knew that this threat wasn't "out there".

Beth died years before JB, but why would him being in mourning make him more likely to be innocent? That makes no sense to me. Yeah of course he was saddened by both deaths. The R's were not monsters, they were not emotionless. They did love their children....both of them. Something happened. They covered up something. A situation beyond the emotional scope of any normal person occurred, whatever it was, and they reacted.

 

[AndHence]

The difference between how John mourned the loss of Beth and JB is telling, in my opinion. The loss of Beth deeply affected him and drew him closer to religion. He was inconsolable in the wake of her tragic death. However, with JonBenet's death he displayed entirely different behavior. Within days of her murder he was on TV asking for forgiveness and talking about moving on. Steve Thomas noted the lack of anger or desire to see her killer brought to justice in his book. John seems resigned to what happened, as if he already knew what took place. If John knew for certain that an intruder -- particularly someone close to the family and with a vendetta against him -- had really killed his daughter, he'd have surely had some desire to do everything in his power to bring that person or persons to justice. Instead he circled the wagons and lawyered up, speaking of forgiveness.

 

[Ellie9]

I don't give him a pass.

Logic and statistics states that He was the One responsible for JB's vaginal condition

Logic and statistics implies that he was the Murderer also.

Personally I wonder if he made the garrotte then forced Patsy to use it too

We don't know what level of Domestic Violence was being covered up there

Statistically speaking, JR is the Murderer and Rapist.

I just looked this up because I'd been thinking about it, and how most cases I'd heard of actually have mothers killing the children.

Apparently, according to Wikipedia referencing a 1999 study, mothers are more likely to kill a child under eight, fathers most likely after eight. Source is the Wikipedia article on filicide.

As for sexual predation, males are more likely. However women offenders were by and large the ones who targeted their own family members or children they knew. So if we're discussing JBRs chronic abuse, Patsy is not completely out of the question, but it's true that it would still be more rare than John or the brother. If it was the brother, at his age I'd be highly concerned he was a victim himself.


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[BBB167893]

Hello, I'm new at posting on this forum but I've been researching the Ramsey's case for about 10 years (I am younger than JBR would be) and I have to admit for the first few years I believed an intruder killed JonBenét. Until I started looking at the facts...

Same thing happened to me!

Say, your screen-name sounds familiar, for some reason...

 

[BBB167893]

This intruder has handwriting that looks a ton like Patsy, by coincidence.

i tend to just point at the BPD experts when it comes to the handwriting, but imo the importance of the similarities is vastly overstated (it’s printing!). i think if we set up an experiment and all us posters were to be given a printed letter to be matched and printed samples from 10 different people to compare, the failure rate would be high. because of similarities. so, to be IDI, you don’t have to believe this, either.

Even if what you say about printing is true, Anti-K, there's more going on than just that. It was her pen, her pad, her expressions, etc. But there's one thing that clinches it for me. I've been wanting to mention it, and now might be a good time. Robert Ressler noted that the use of FBI had periods between the letters. Putting periods between letters in acronyms is a grammatical touch that has not been standard since the late 1960s. Patsy was born on December 29, 1956 and would have been a kid learning her English lessons in school before then. Patsy was known to sign her letters to friends with acronyms with periods in them. One that stood out was "To B.V.F.M.F.A. from P.P.R.B.S.J." That meant "To Barbara V. Fernie, Master of Fine Arts from Patricia Paugh Ramsey, Bachelor of Science in Journalism."

 

[BBB167893]

You want to know how Ramsey fibers got all over the murder scene?

No, I'd say it's fairly obvious!

If you can understand how fibers not traced to the home can get into incriminating locations than it should be child’s play to understand how fibers traced to the house can get into the same places. Fibers all behave according to the same rules and principles. The victim was in the Ramsey home and had regular, frequent and recent contact with Ramsey people and Ramsey items in the Ramsey home.

But they were only in the incriminating places. Is that one of the coincidences we're supposed to accept?

This is one aspect of RDI reasoning that is almost laughable – we’re supposed to believe that IDI fibers can be present without meaning, but that RDI fibers – fibers the victim was known to have innocent contact with – MUST be RDI evidence.

The way YOU say it, it would be laughable. Not quite that way, though. I'd explain further, but I don't think I'd get anywhere.

IDI reasons for writing the ransom note have been addressed a million times. Denialism doesn’t make for much of a counter-argument. The note is IDI evidence, and, if RDI, it is a monstrously huge contradiction (kidnappings don’t explain dead bodies in houses). Everyone’s printing is similar, so no coincidence here.

I believe you're from Canada, Anti-K, so I'll let you in on the dirty little secret of American justice: a suspect doesn't have to fool the police, the prosecutors or the experts, They have to fool one person out of twelve. That's it. And finding one sucker in a pool of twelve couldn't be too hard in a population that elected Mary Lacy.

(Lord, I apologize for that. I'll tend to the starving pygmies in New Guinea. Amen.)