Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[EllieBee]

I really like this theory on JR's involvement. I also think there was disagreement over how to cover up and stage. It's like you can see the disagreement in the situation, but they never actually disagree in interviews or ever correct each other (that I noticed anyway) which might be a big part of why this case is so confusing.

I think if JR were in charge of all aspects of the cover up, it would have been done in a more low-key, believable way.

Had JR known how ridiculous PR's "help" would be, it is likely he would have told her to sit down and do NOTHING.

That said, JR definitely got antsy when JBR was not discovered early on, and began acting pretty sketchy himself. Including moving JBR's body closer to the door of the WC to be "discovered".

Look, I think they are both to blame for trying to cover this murderup, but knowing what a drama queen Patsy was, who in the heck would let HER write the RN? And I firmly believe JR not only knew Patsy was writing her loony magnum opus, but assigned her the task. I am sure in hindsight, he had some doubts about it.

But lucky for him, they got away with it.

 

[InstantProof]

Look, I think they are both to blame for trying to cover this murderup, but knowing what a drama queen Patsy was, who in the heck would let HER write the RN? And I firmly believe JR not only knew Patsy was writing her loony magnum opus, but assigned her the task. I am sure in hindsight, he had some doubts about it.

If he was involved then I suspect he was telling her what to write and she felt the need to expand and elaborate (like a parent doing their kids homework). He may not have realized until it was too late. The last paragraph is all her.

 

[Anti-K]

As for DocG I am only recommending it for the handwriting sample. I have never seen any substantial (i.e. more than one or two lines) examples of his handwriting anywhere, but there was one other example on his site. They are both cheques if I'm not mistaken. I'd never heard anyone say PR wrote it, so maybe that's true. His theory "proves" nothing. I haven't looked at that site in years so I don't remember much.

If JR is so innocent then why is he such a liar? Why didn't he tell anyone about the window? Why did his stories change? Why didn't he say anything about BR being awake? Why would he try to call Archuleta to get out of town less than an hour after the body was discovered? Why didn't he talk to the police? Why did they wait 4 months to have an interview? Why did he even hire lawyers for his ex-wife and the rest of the family if he had nothing to hide?

They did not cooperate at all, to the point of impeding the investigation. Why wouldn't innocent parents want to find the killer? Look at the family of Daniel van Dam, 10 years after they were still talking about this and pushing for better Amber Alert systems. The R's had the resources to make some real changes happen if they were so concerned about "someone out there." In contrast to the families of Polly Klaas, or Adam Walsh, they took JB's website down. They dissolved her foundation. Why didn't they try to do anything to stop bad guys from hurting little children? Because they knew that this threat wasn't "out there".

Beth died years before JB, but why would him being in mourning make him more likely to be innocent? That makes no sense to me. Yeah of course he was saddened by both deaths. The R's were not monsters, they were not emotionless. They did love their children....both of them. Something happened. They covered up something. A situation beyond the emotional scope of any normal person occurred, whatever it was, and they reacted.

Hello Annapurna,
First, I want to assure you that I am not going to try to change your mind about anything. However, I do want to show you how things look from the other side. I’m going to try to be brief. Promise.

If JR is so innocent then why is he such a liar?

Not everyone sees the lies that RDI sees (even amongst RDI there is some disagreement as to what is and isn’t a lie. There shouldn’t be anything subjective about this, but, sadly, somehow, there is.

Why didn't he tell anyone about the window? Why didn't he say anything about BR being awake? Why would he try to call Archuleta to get out of town less than an hour after the body was discovered?

All of these questions have been answered numerous times, not just by other people, but by Mr Ramsey.

Why did his stories change?

Enter Real Life and the mantra (apologies to those sick of this one, but true is true): memory is fallible AND malleable. IMO, if the stories all remained exactly the same, some people would be going, see, he must be lying. No one ever tells the same story the same way twice in a row.

Why did they wait 4 months to have an interview?

This is also something that has been answered many times. The simple answer is that BOTH sides share the burden for this one. Bad decisions were made.

Why did he even hire lawyers for his ex-wife and the rest of the family if he had nothing to hide?[/I
]
I’ve paid almost no attention to this aspect of the case, but I bet this is another one of those questions that Mr Ramsey has already answered, somewhere. I know that many in the legal community see nothing unusual or strange about this and that most would even recommend that he do so.

They did not cooperate at all, to the point of impeding the investigation.

This is how many RDI interpret the dysfunctional relationship between the Ramseys and BPD, but this is not a factual statement, and is, indeed, in fact, a distortion of actual events as we they are known.

Why wouldn't innocent parents want to find the killer? Look at the family of Daniel van Dam, 10 years after they were still talking about this and pushing for better Amber Alert systems. The R's had the resources to make some real changes happen if they were so concerned about "someone out there." In contrast to the families of Polly Klaas, or Adam Walsh, they took JB's website down. They dissolved her foundation. Why didn't they try to do anything to stop bad guys from hurting little children? Because they knew that this threat wasn't "out there".

False equivalence. Different people, different circumstances.

Beth died years before JB, but why would him being in mourning make him more likely to be innocent? That makes no sense to me. Yeah of course he was saddened by both deaths. The R's were not monsters, they were not emotionless. They did love their children....both of them. Something happened. They covered up something. A situation beyond the emotional scope of any normal person occurred, whatever it was, and they reacted.


Possibly, some people think that once you’ve lost a child you don’t then turn around a murder another one. BTW, whoever killed jbr was a monster of some kind.

Anyway, just a glimpse of how things are seen from the other side. I think what you’ve presented here are reasons for suspicion and for investigation (happened, nothing came of it); but, I also feel that that time has passed.
…

AK

 

[Ellie9]

I think if JR were in charge of all aspects of the cover up, it would have been done in a more low-key, believable way.

Had JR known how ridiculous PR's "help" would be, it is likely he would have told her to sit down and do NOTHING.

That said, JR definitely got antsy when JBR was not discovered early on, and began acting pretty sketchy himself. Including moving JBR's body closer to the door of the WC to be "discovered".

Look, I think they are both to blame for trying to cover this murderup, but knowing what a drama queen Patsy was, who in the heck would let HER write the RN? And I firmly believe JR not only knew Patsy was writing her loony magnum opus, but assigned her the task. I am sure in hindsight, he had some doubts about it.

But lucky for him, they got away with it.

The more I think about this possibility the more it makes sense and answers some questions that were unanswered before. Again, I really like this theory. They didn't pre-plan this, and time was of the essence. They didn't agree on how to stage this, and it looks like a mess because it IS a mess.

I think the tape and rope added later makes a ton of sense. If JR added it later, then this shows why he tore it off her. He feared his DNA was on it, so by tearing it off, then he can say that was because of when he removed it. I think JR also claimed to have loosened her ropes when he found her. Another excuse for why his DNA might be involved. To try to look at it from different angles, though, it's still possible that he added it before police arrived, and then for the same reasons he made sure to touch the tape and ropes after finding her body. And of course by carrying her, his fibers and everything are all over her blanket, clothes possibly, ropes again, ... everything.

I agree that if Patsy wasn't involved, JR probably would have pulled off a masterpiece. He was fairly good. Even today a lot of people think he had nothing to do with the crime. When people saw his recent interview, many started thinking he was completely innocent again. The guy is good at this. He also can lie much more easily and effortlessly than Patsy. When Patsy lies she squirms, uses nervous laughter, starts using contractions (I am / I'm) only rarely, and just looks suspicious in general. John sometimes uses an angry tone when lying, but not always, and if an angry tone is the only tell it's not very easy to figure him out.

If John had staged this from start to finish without Patsy and her dramatics and her bad lying, I bet there would be a ton more people in the IDI camp. Patsy was an even weaker link than BR in my opinion.

 

[blondehart]

Anyone seen these blogs about Bob Enyart?
http://www.bobenyartmurderedjonbene...-enyart-mislead-public-federal-probe.html?m=1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Annapurna]

The Bob Enyart thing is spam. There is no truth to it.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

This is something I don't understand:

I've seen many posts over the years asking if the Ramseys were innocent, why didn't they establish a legacy like Marc Klaas or John Walsh did? Why didn't they start an organization? Why don't they support the cause of missing, abused, and murdered children? But...if the Ramseys were innocent, they would still be the same people we've "known" for the past 20 years. These are people who decided to strangle their daughter 2 hours after she was bashed on the head, who have denied that she was sexually abused, who sexualized their daughter in beauty pageants, who have accused many people of murdering a child, etc. It doesn't make sense to me to act like if JonBenet was killed by an intruder, all the negative traits the Ramseys have would be erased. Do I think John would have put together a massive investigation force to find this intruder? Yes. But IDK how involved they would really be in the bigger cause.

IMO, even if the Ramseys were innocent, and this was something accepted by the public, I still think they would be controversial and not the most well-liked.

 

[Annapurna]

First let me apologize to anyone who's been offended by my posts at all, I know I was taking a snarky tone sometimes! I was in a mood. :blushing:


AK you really didn't answer anything at all.

Saying JR answered the questions is unsatisfactory to someone who believes he is lying. There is a difference between telling a story differently and changing the facts all together. JR alternates between telling LE that he didn't tell anyone about the window (the truth) and telling people in the media that he did tell LA and they were just so incompetent that they forgot. This second story fits with the narrative they've been trying to sell, that the BPD ruined everything and they were all out to get them. The BPD made some mistakes with the initial scene, no one is denying that. I don't buy into the idea that they were being persecuted or focused on to the point of excluding everyone else.
The BPD spent a great deal of time and money talking to any and everyone that could possibly be connected. "more than 150 DNA samples have been tested in the investigation. More than 140 people have been investigated as potential suspects" (Denver news 7). I'm having trouble finding a source to cite but last I heard there was around $2 million dollars spent investigating this case. Its not like they didn't look at anyone else. There was even some special treatment going on with the DA's office. Not just Hunter, but Lacy too. I'm reminded of the quote from Kolar's book when she said she "didn't want to damage [her] relationship with the Ramseys". She said this in response to Kolar's presentation. He was supposed to be looking into cold cases. Evidently Lacy didn't care if they were solved.

The R's communicated very little with the BPD in the beginning. They gave some statements the first day or so, then they left town and avoided LE through their lawyers. They were then happy to get on CNN and speak to the media. Throughout this they have very much acted like they are on the defensive rather than people concerned with finding the culprit.

There was indeed an investigation and something did come of it: they were indicted. DA Hunter, for reasons know to him, decided not to allow the people of Boulder County make the decision of guilt or innocence in a trial by jury. The current DA has called Lacy's "exoneration" "weird" and "a stretch".

Have you read Kolar's book? One of the things I enjoyed about the book was his perspective on the investigation from the LE side. I'm going to have to re-read it.

Unfortunately its true that the time has passed and justice will probably never be had. I just wish the people had been given the chance to make that decision- not Hunter.

 

[icedtea4me]

This is something I don't understand:

I've seen many posts over the years asking if the Ramseys were innocent, why didn't they establish a legacy like Marc Klaas or John Walsh did? Why didn't they start an organization? Why don't they support the cause of missing, abused, and murdered children? But...if the Ramseys were innocent, they would still be the same people we've "known" for the past 20 years. These are people who decided to strangle their daughter 2 hours after she was bashed on the head, who have denied that she was sexually abused, who sexualized their daughter in beauty pageants, who have accused many people of murdering a child, etc. It doesn't make sense to me to act like if JonBenet was killed by an intruder, all the negative traits the Ramseys have would be erased. Do I think John would have put together a massive investigation force to find this intruder? Yes. But IDK how involved they would really be in the bigger cause.

IMO, even if the Ramseys were innocent, and this was something accepted by the public, I still think they would be controversial and not the most well-liked.

Back in April 2000, the Fox News Channel aired a program called The Ramseys: On the Record. John told reporter Carol McKinley, who interviewed him and Patsy at their home in Atlanta, that he would like to see a law enacted that would make the murder of a child who was 12 years of age and younger be a federal crime. It's interesting he chose the age of 12, because guess who had just turned 13 a few months prior back in January?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Back in April 2000, the Fox News Channel aired a program called The Ramseys: On the Record. John told reporter Carol McKinley, who interviewed him and Patsy at their home in Atlanta, that he would like to see a law enacted that would make the murder of a child who was 12 years of age and younger be a federal crime. It's interesting he chose the age of 12, because guess who had just turned 13 a few months prior back in January?

Was this during his "Run For Office" period?

IMO his statement has got zero relevance to Burke as Burke was 9 when this crime was committed.

 

[Annapurna]

Its just more hot air. I feel like the Ramseys are so deep in denial they probably believe their own garbage. I can't believe he ran for office, just incredible. The arrogance.

The killer deserves "Forgiveness" they said. They are not angry they said.

 

[Anti-K]

First let me apologize to anyone who's been offended by my posts at all, I know I was taking a snarky tone sometimes! I was in a mood. :blushing:


AK you really didn't answer anything at all.

Saying JR answered the questions is unsatisfactory to someone who believes he is lying. There is a difference between telling a story differently and changing the facts all together. JR alternates between telling LE that he didn't tell anyone about the window (the truth) and telling people in the media that he did tell LA and they were just so incompetent that they forgot. This second story fits with the narrative they've been trying to sell, that the BPD ruined everything and they were all out to get them. The BPD made some mistakes with the initial scene, no one is denying that. I don't buy into the idea that they were being persecuted or focused on to the point of excluding everyone else.
The BPD spent a great deal of time and money talking to any and everyone that could possibly be connected. "more than 150 DNA samples have been tested in the investigation. More than 140 people have been investigated as potential suspects" (Denver news 7). I'm having trouble finding a source to cite but last I heard there was around $2 million dollars spent investigating this case. Its not like they didn't look at anyone else. There was even some special treatment going on with the DA's office. Not just Hunter, but Lacy too. I'm reminded of the quote from Kolar's book when she said she "didn't want to damage [her] relationship with the Ramseys". She said this in response to Kolar's presentation. He was supposed to be looking into cold cases. Evidently Lacy didn't care if they were solved.

The R's communicated very little with the BPD in the beginning. They gave some statements the first day or so, then they left town and avoided LE through their lawyers. They were then happy to get on CNN and speak to the media. Throughout this they have very much acted like they are on the defensive rather than people concerned with finding the culprit.

There was indeed an investigation and something did come of it: they were indicted. DA Hunter, for reasons know to him, decided not to allow the people of Boulder County make the decision of guilt or innocence in a trial by jury. The current DA has called Lacy's "exoneration" "weird" and "a stretch".

Have you read Kolar's book? One of the things I enjoyed about the book was his perspective on the investigation from the LE side. I'm going to have to re-read it.

Unfortunately its true that the time has passed and justice will probably never be had. I just wish the people had been given the chance to make that decision- not Hunter.

If the snark was directed at me, I missed it. And, if it was – no worries. I don’t mind.

I know I didn’t answer anything. I wasn’t really trying to. I just wanted to show how things look from the other side, and, I was trying to do it as briefly as I could. Of course, the devil is in the details.

The Ramsey “behavior” you cite can be explained in a number of ways and RDI has chosen to interpret it one way only. That’s unfortunate, but it is what it is.

I’ve read (and, have – somewhere ) Kolar’s book, and of course I read his AMAA, and I’ve listened to him on Tricia’s radioblog and seen him on youtube. He seems likeable, but his book is one of the most heavily biased pieces of true crime I have ever read. And, in some parts, I would say that it is even silly. I think if stripped away all the idiocy and innuendo and just kept the “facts” it wouldn’t be so bad.

Yes, the Ramseys were indicted (which doesn’t say much) but they were only indicted in one sense of the word and not in another sense because the True Bill was not signed, because – there shouldn’t be any mystery here - Hunter (not alone) determined that there was insufficient evidence to support the (IMO bizarre) charges brought forth by the jurors.

It always comes down to the evidence; doesn’t it? I think so.
…

AK

 

[InstantProof]

The killer deserves "Forgiveness" they said. They are not angry they said.

Hearing them talk like this made me consider Burke as a suspect.
If BDI then these comments make sense for them.
If RDI then they are being pretty obvious and should know better.
If IDI then it just doesn't sound right. It's the sort of thing the parent of a murdered child might say after the killer is convicted and in prison. Not while they are free, God know where doing God knows what.

 

[Anti-K]

Even when the police doubted the ransom letter, they STILL had to investigate the kidnapping angle to be thorough. That enough, makes the ransom note worthwhile.

This is something that just doesn’t make sense to some of us. IF RDI, what were investigators going to investigate that wouldn’t just lead back to RDI? What benefit is the note to the Ramseys if it just leads investigators back to them? And, even if there was some benefit for them, that vanishes as soon as the body is discovered !! As well, as when it is discovered that the note was written in the house. Double-whammy.
…

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Again, you are confusing what happened before 11:00 and what has happened after. John is a lying piece of crap, but before about 11:00 that day I believe he was telling the truth. If you have confirmation that John told LE that morning that Burke was, and had always been asleep that morning, I'll drop it. But as far as I know the only mention of Burke was when John told police that Burke had slept through the night and had seen and heard nothing. There is no evidence to suggest that John had any reason to doubt that.

The police arrived at the house by 6:00; Burke was “roused” for bed at 7:00. In between that time, one of the officers looked in Burke’s room (Burke pretended to be asleep). So, regardless of what Ramsey may have said about Burke, it seems that the police – at that time – could have reasonably assumed that Burke had been asleep the whole time.
…

AK

 

[InstantProof]

This is something that just doesn’t make sense to some of us. IF RDI, what were investigators going to investigate that wouldn’t just lead back to RDI? What benefit is the note to the Ramseys if it just leads investigators back to them? And, even if there was some benefit for them, that vanishes as soon as the body is discovered !! As well, as when it is discovered that the note was written in the house. Double-whammy.
…

AK

It created enough doubt or confusion or speculation for them to worm their way around and go free. It worked.

 

[Anti-K]

Hmm. I honestly do see a lot of what you're saying. Especially when JR says he didn't find any point of entry, and then even fully admits to breaking the window himself.

The problem with your theory that I see is that JR saw the ransom note before all this - before 11 AM in your theory. It looked so much like PR's handwriting. I'm sure he knew. If he was going to try to help PR by siding with her, wouldn't he have started earlier maybe? I feel like he must have known it was PR's note once he saw it. It's a ridiculous note. This makes me think that even if he didn't have a single thing to do with it that night, not even witnessing it, then he must have decided to play along very early.

This is something that is incredibly hard for many of us to believe (argument from personal incredulity!). Ramsey is oblivious to everything, he gets up and there’s a ransom note and his daughter’s been kidnapped. Even if he thought the handwriting in the note was similar to the wife’s, why would he even consider that it had been written by her? Has anyone ever heard of cognitive dissonance? Unless he already believed that the Mrs was a psycho capable of harming her own children there is no reason why he would even begin to think she could be responsible for – what? Kidnapping jbr?

If he did, bizarrely, unrealistically, fantastically, somehow deduce that his wife had written the note, why wouldn’t he freak out, or just simply ask, “where is she?” Would he even want to call the cops before finding out? And, after calling the cops, wouldn’t he be on their side? I’ve already lost a child; I’m not going to lose another one!
…

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I think if JR were in charge of all aspects of the cover up, it would have been done in a more low-key, believable way.

Had JR known how ridiculous PR's "help" would be, it is likely he would have told her to sit down and do NOTHING.

That said, JR definitely got antsy when JBR was not discovered early on, and began acting pretty sketchy himself. Including moving JBR's body closer to the door of the WC to be "discovered".

Look, I think they are both to blame for trying to cover this murderup, but knowing what a drama queen Patsy was, who in the heck would let HER write the RN? And I firmly believe JR not only knew Patsy was writing her loony magnum opus, but assigned her the task. I am sure in hindsight, he had some doubts about it.

But lucky for him, they got away with it.

But, even if IDI, once the deadline passed without a call from the kidnappers, we could expect Ramsey to become antsy, or agitated, etc.
It is an established fact that JBR’s body was not moved.
…

AK

 

[InstantProof]

This is something that is incredibly hard for many of us to believe (argument from personal incredulity!). Ramsey is oblivious to everything, he gets up and there’s a ransom note and his daughter’s been kidnapped. Even if he thought the handwriting in the note was similar to the wife’s, why would he even consider that it had been written by her? Has anyone ever heard of cognitive dissonance? Unless he already believed that the Mrs was a psycho capable of harming her own children there is no reason why he would even begin to think she could be responsible for – what? Kidnapping jbr?

If he did, bizarrely, unrealistically, fantastically, somehow deduce that his wife had written the note, why wouldn’t he freak out, or just simply ask, “where is she?” Would he even want to call the cops before finding out? And, after calling the cops, wouldn’t he be on their side? I’ve already lost a child; I’m not going to lose another one!
…

AK

This isn't necessarily what I believe but if he has no idea about anything;
Patsy says JB has been kidnapped and there's a letter. John looks at the letter and it looks like Patsy wrote it. Maybe he was already wondering what she was up to, if she didn't go to bed that night or if he heard her up at weird hours. He could confront her and ask what the hell she is doing. Or keep his suspicions to himself. Either way, to see if she is bluffing, tells her to call the cops.
He is either involved or really really confident his wife is behind it, to send Burke out of the house.

 

[InstantProof]

But, even if IDI, once the deadline passed without a call from the kidnappers, we could expect Ramsey to become antsy, or agitated, etc.
…

AK

So antsy neither of them mentioned it?