Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[Annapurna]

On the topic of livor mortis:

What the blood patterns reveal is that her position was not changed in the time when it is setting. Poster DeeDee249 (am I remembering that right?) gave a fantastic analogy that really helped me understand.

Imagine a bowl of jello. When it is in a semiliquid state, it will leave lines around the edges. If it is moved, you will see another line on the bowl in a different place. It is similar with livor mortis. If JB was moved into a drastically different position at the point where the livor mortis was forming, there would be different patterns. (Therefore we know she was never in the suitcase, probably never hung, etc.) The blood pools and where there is pressure you see the white lines. On JB you can see them on her back where her clothes or the blanket was wrinkled.

This does not entirely rule out the idea that she was moved. If she was deeper in the WC, all the way to the left but still in that position, she could have been gently moved closer to the door. she could have been moved in the blanket like someone suggested.

I think this scenario has some real possibilities. Look at the floorplan of the WC, the door is all the way to the right side of the room. In a completely windowless dark space, and perhaps not much ambient light from the rest of the basement, it is plausible that if she were deeper in the shadows she would not have been seen by FW. No invisible gorillas necessary

 

[InstantProof]

This is something that has bothered me about the case since I first started looking into it. How/Why would an intruder know to place the note on the back staircase for Patsy to find? Wouldn't an intruder be more likely to place the ransom note on JonBenet's bed or perhaps on the kitchen counter next to where the pen and pad used to compose it were? Even if the intruder was someone close to the family and knew Patsy came down that way, they'd want to place the note where it was sure to be found by EITHER parent and not leave anything to chance. This coupled with the fact that the parents' fingerprints weren't found on the note are quite suspicious. I think it's highly unlikely the note was found on the staircase and both parents knew to keep their fingerprints off it given the lack of evidence for an intruder in the house. Thoughts?

The intruder was kind enough to lay the 3 pages out on the stairs so the parents could read the whole thing and not have to get their perfectly explainable finger prints on it. I think distancing is the key word in this case. From the staging to the ransom letter to the 911 call to everyone being asleep for everything to numerous random objects in the house.

 

[THE BUNK]

The intruder was kind enough to lay the 3 pages out on the stairs so the parents could read the whole thing and not have to get their perfectly explainable finger prints on it. I think distancing is the key word in this case. From the staging to the ransom letter to the 911 call to everyone being asleep for everything to numerous random objects in the house.

I question whether you could place three pages of legal paper on a step and not have them curl up or blow away in a stray gust.

I seriously doubt those pages were found on the steps the way Patsy claims. JonBenet's bed would be the most appropriate place to put the pages. Not to mention it makes no sense to remove the pages form the pad or not put them in an envelope with "To Mr. & Mrs Ramsey".

 

[InstantProof]

If IDI, it is possible that the killer was not even aware that there was more than one set of stairs.

As a companion to my “theory” of intent, I have a detailed “theory” of movement through the house in which the note is placed as a final act before the killer exits the house. Using my “theory” as key, the note is placed last because the killer does not want it discovered while he is in the house, and it is placed on the stairs because once the crime is committed and the scene staged he is in a hurry to exit and does not want to risk going back to the second floor, and, more importantly, because of proximity to where he placed the notepad, plus, it was on his way out. He spreads the note out one page at a time so that it will be easily seen.

BTW, because of where the spiral staircase is located it becomes the natural set of stairs to use and an obvious place for persons to leave things that they want others to notice (yes, there are other obvious places). This is probably the reason why LHP would sometimes leave things there.
…

AK

In a huge house there's only one spot anyone can think to leave notes? Where Patsy receives notes from the housekeeper is the same place she receives notes from kidnappers?

 

[andreww]

I question whether you could place three pages of legal paper on a step and not have them curl up or blow away in a stray gust.

I seriously doubt those pages were found on the steps the way Patsy claims. JonBenet's bed would be the most appropriate place to put the pages. Not to mention it makes no sense to remove the pages form the pad or not put them in an envelope with "To Mr. & Mrs Ramsey".

I agree. You don't have to "place" that note anywhere. Simply drop it where you wrote it and walk out the door. THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND IT!!! Why place the note anywhere? Whey put the pad and paper away? Because the person that wrote that note wanted LE to believe that they had brought the not with them with the intention of kidnapping the child. If it were an intruder, why would they care that they left the pad and pen out?

 

[Anti-K]

I agree. You don't have to "place" that note anywhere. Simply drop it where you wrote it and walk out the door. THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND IT!!! Why place the note anywhere? Whey put the pad and paper away? Because the person that wrote that note wanted LE to believe that they had brought the not with them with the intention of kidnapping the child. If it were an intruder, why would they care that they left the pad and pen out?

If IDI, the killer could have left the note anywhere. He chose the stairs.

Some IDI think the killer entered the house while the Ramseys were with the White’s. They think that the killer put the pen and the notepad away so that the Ramseys would not notice anything out of place when they returned. This is probably the simplest explanation there could be for the notepad and pen being put away after the killer used them.

I think the killer probably entered the house after the Ramseys went to bed, so that explanation doesn’t really work for me. Some have suggested that the killer may have had some sort of OCD and so he put things away just because he had to. That’s a pretty simple explanation, too. This could work for me, but if we use my “theory” of intent as a key, the notepad and the pen (and the so-called practice note, the brush end of the paintbrush in the tote, and the handle on the garrote); even the body hidden in the wc) were all used and put where they were found for the same reason: for investigators to find.

My “theory” of intent says that the note and every other aspect of the crime was created specifically for the investigators. The ransom note stops the parents from finding the body and causes them to invite investigators over; the note makes the investigators suspicious. Everythgin follows from there. That’s a pretty simple explanation.
…

AK

 

[THE BUNK]

If IDI, the killer could have left the note anywhere. He chose the stairs.

Some IDI think the killer entered the house while the Ramseys were with the White’s. They think that the killer put the pen and the notepad away so that the Ramseys would not notice anything out of place when they returned. This is probably the simplest explanation there could be for the notepad and pen being put away after the killer used them.

I think the killer probably entered the house after the Ramseys went to bed, so that explanation doesn’t really work for me. Some have suggested that the killer may have had some sort of OCD and so he put things away just because he had to. That’s a pretty simple explanation, too. This could work for me, but if we use my “theory” of intent as a key, the notepad and the pen (and the so-called practice note, the brush end of the paintbrush in the tote, and the handle on the garrote); even the body hidden in the wc) were all used and put where they were found for the same reason: for investigators to find.

My “theory” of intent says that the note and every other aspect of the crime was created specifically for the investigators. The ransom note stops the parents from finding the body and causes them to invite investigators over; the note makes the investigators suspicious. Everythgin follows from there. That’s a pretty simple explanation.
…

AK

If he put the note on the stairs, the minute he left it it would have curled up or blown away. He would have to fold the pages together, put it in an envelope or use a paperweight of some sort. The Ramseys did not find those pages on the stairs.

Heck how would he have known the Ramseys would have seen the pages in the dark. There is an even chance that the Ramseys step on one of the pages or blows it away moving down the stairs. All of his time writing this 3 page note would be a waste, when he could easily have folded the pages into one and wrote on the the back.

 

[Anti-K]

If he put the note on the stairs, the minute he left it it would have curled up or blown away. He would have to fold the pages together, put it in an envelope or use a paperweight of some sort. The Ramseys did not find those pages on the stairs.

Heck how would he have known the Ramseys would have seen the pages in the dark. There is an even chance that the Ramseys step on one of the pages or blows it away moving down the stairs. All of his time writing this 3 page note would be a waste, when he could easily have folded the pages into one and wrote on the the back.

Sorry, I don’t believe you.
…

AK

 

[InstantProof]

I know the note was said to have been laid out on the stairs but as far as I know the paper had never been folded which leaves very few options for the intruder theory. He couldn't have brought it from outside, or written it earlier and held on to it, etc without having to fold it to carry it on him.

 

[THE BUNK]

Sorry, I don’t believe you.
…

AK

You don't have to believe me. Try it yourself. Send us the results.

 

[THE BUNK]

I know the note was said to have been laid out on the stairs but as far as I know the paper had never been folded which leaves very few options for the intruder theory. He couldn't have brought it from outside, or written it earlier and held on to it, etc without having to fold it to carry it on him.

Also consider when the pages were ripped from the pad. Did he carry the pages AFTER he murdered JB? Or did he carry it with him....UNFOLDED??!! Did he carry the pad with him in his hiding spot?? No sweat stains, blood, semen or anything on the letter.

 

[THE BUNK]

How thin are the steps in the Ramseys home? Does someone have a picture? Which steps were they found on?

 

[Anti-K]

You don't have to believe me. Try it yourself. Send us the results.

Okay. I will. And, i'll post video, too.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I know the note was said to have been laid out on the stairs but as far as I know the paper had never been folded which leaves very few options for the intruder theory. He couldn't have brought it from outside, or written it earlier and held on to it, etc without having to fold it to carry it on him.

It’s easy. You write the note with the pages still intact. You close the notepad and set it down somewhere (maybe, where it was found the next morning). You commit the crime. On the was out, you stop to rip out the pages, leaving the notepad where it is found later, then on your way out the butler door, you set the pages on the stairs.

So easy.

…

AK

 

[questfortrue]

The evidence as we know it is that the body was not moved. This is a factual statement, and it is not disputed by anyone associated with the case.

However, is seems that you’re saying that if Ramsey chose the right time – I guess he just got lucky - and if he moved the body in just the right way (why wouldn’t he just move it in the normal way) then MAYBE the body could have been moved without leaving any sign. This is purely speculative and necessarily contingent upon things occurring in an improbable fashion. It sounds far-fetched. It seems an unnecessarily complex explanation for White not seeing the body.

But, I’m interested in the timeline you present because – pause while I consider the reaction this is going to get from some – I’m skeptical (undecided) about the claim that Ramsey was in the basement between 10 and 11. Ramsey was in the basement before Arndt arrived (8:00). Contrary to reports, Ardnt never said that she lost track of Ramsey between 10:40 and 12:00. She said she “worded it in my report rather 14 vaguely, and what I worded and what has been put out in 15 the media are not the same. I said something during 16 that time frame I saw John reading his mail.” During her deposition Ardnt admitted that she, “did not watch John Ramsey the entire 22 time." But, this is a far cry from saying that he was missing for a period of time or that he was in the basement between 10 and 11.

I’m not even sure that I understand why he would want to move the body. If he wanted someone to find it wouldn’t he have just positioned it like that to begin with? If he decided he needed to discover it himself, why couldn’t he just do that without first moving it? Did he know that White had already looked in the room? If he did, would he still move the body? Of course, not, and etc...
…

AK

Let’s see . . .

IIRC,
- You were challenged on a fact of stating that JonBenét’s body had not been moved.
- Then you provided a ‘fact’ derived from forensics, to prove it.
- My post stated that there wasn’t any detective who specified that the moving of her body was or was not a fact, and
- In keeping with livor mortis forensics I provided a scenario in which JonBenét’s body could have been moved. (Speculative, sure, but not forensically untruthful.)
- You replied that my scenario is “purely speculative”,. . . occurring in an “improbable fashion” . . . “far-fetched”. . . “unnecessarily complex.”

Wait a minute, you forgot “silly”.

Why does this feel ad hominem . . . ?

Rather than me taking the detour quoting references for JR’s visits to the basement, I’ll just comment you can find this info in ST and Kolar’s books.

 

[Anti-K]

You don't have to believe me. Try it yourself. Send us the results.

Okay. I made two videos. One inside the house and one on the steps outside of the house.
I made them with my iPhone. The videos are too big to send, the computer I usually sync with is dismantled and being rebuilt. I’m downloading some iCloud thing to my laptop to see if I can copy the videos to there and then onto the laptop and then to here. But, I am also going to work, now. So, this will have to wait til tonight (prob after midnight. I think I’m in mountain time zone now).

The videos will prove that you are wrong and they show that I was right to disbelieve you. Wait, everyone will see.
…

AK

 

[andreww]

Okay. I made two videos. One inside the house and one on the steps outside of the house.
I made them with my iPhone. The videos are too big to send, the computer I usually sync with is dismantled and being rebuilt. I’m downloading some iCloud thing to my laptop to see if I can copy the videos to there and then onto the laptop and then to here. But, I am also going to work, now. So, this will have to wait til tonight (prob after midnight. I think I’m in mountain time zone now).

The videos will prove that you are wrong and they show that I was right to disbelieve you. Wait, everyone will see.
…

AK

Who cares, unless you shot them in the Ramsey house. Some houses are drafty, some aren't. I guarantee I could put three pieces of paper on my bottom step an they'd be there a week later.

 

[InstantProof]

If the pages are laid out, Patsy does what- steps over them, goes down a couple of more steps to be eye level and reads from there? Wouldn't the natural instinct be to pick them up? Why avoid touching it unless you are guilty?

 

[AndHence]

If IDI, it is possible that the killer was not even aware that there was more than one set of stairs.

As a companion to my “theory” of intent, I have a detailed “theory” of movement through the house in which the note is placed as a final act before the killer exits the house. Using my “theory” as key, the note is placed last because the killer does not want it discovered while he is in the house, and it is placed on the stairs because once the crime is committed and the scene staged he is in a hurry to exit and does not want to risk going back to the second floor, and, more importantly, because of proximity to where he placed the notepad, plus, it was on his way out. He spreads the note out one page at a time so that it will be easily seen.

BTW, because of where the spiral staircase is located it becomes the natural set of stairs to use and an obvious place for persons to leave things that they want others to notice (yes, there are other obvious places). This is probably the reason why LHP would sometimes leave things there.
…

AK

Why leave a note at all? If you aren't taking the body and haven't left any other traces of yourself, why leave an incriminating note with your handwriting? If there is no note, LE will immediately arrest the parents upon discovery of the body. It is the appearance of the note that would lead to the parents NOT being arrested in the first place. Not leaving a note means an intruder would almost certainly never be suspected let alone entertained as a theory.

 

[OliviaG1996]

How thin are the steps in the Ramseys home? Does someone have a picture? Which steps were they found on?

​

It's important to note that the picture that shows three pages on top of one of the steps is not how the note was originally looked at by police. If I remember correctly, PR never states which exact step they were found on. Normally, she just says they were on one of the steps near the bottom.