Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? POLL

  • John

    Votes: 124 8.4%
  • Patsy

    Votes: 547 37.2%
  • Burke

    Votes: 340 23.1%
  • An Intruder, (anyone including someone known to them)

    Votes: 459 31.2%

  • Total voters
    1,470
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I doubt the note was ever on the stairs. You would think she would come up with a better story, but I think one thing they consistently do is keep things simple.
"We came home and put her straight to bed"
"I woke up and found the note as I was coming downstairs"

JR of course breaks this pattern with his silly window story. It's easier of course to stick to a simple story than to keep a bunch of details consistent.


P.S.
AndHence, I tried to send you a message but it said your inbox is full.
 
Ok this business with the note is just cementing it further in my mind about how laughable their story is. What a joke. I cannot believe they managed to get away with this, when it's complete nonsense.

Those stairs in the picture confirm again that this is basically one of the last places a stranger would leave a note that he found SO IMPORTANT that he left his handwriting all over it for extra evidence even though he knew he wouldn't get any cash seeing as how JBR was dead.

And he lays them out carefully piece by piece, and the R's don't just grab it instantly?

You know what I'd think if I found three pieces of paper on my spiral staircase that I always walk down every morning? I'd think, aww, my husband left me a note, how sweet. I wonder what it says. Ooh maybe it's a Christmas surprise! Are we not going to Michigan? Maybe this is a big surprise and he's telling me to pack my bathing suits! Then I'd grab it, as would basically all innocent wives/mothers in this exact situation.

I'd maybe think, huh that's weird, why did the housekeeper write me a short novel on her day off? Let me grab that and see if she's okay. The last thing on my mind would be, oh let me make sure not to touch this mysterious note without gloves in case a crime's been committed.

In some ways, the case gets less complicated the more you look at it. This is so clearly the work of two non-criminals failing terribly at pretending an intruder came in and killed their daughter. This would be a joke if a little child didn't die. They should have been punished for their actions, and it's a damn shame they weren't.
 
If IDI, the killer could have left the note anywhere. He chose the stairs.

Some IDI think the killer entered the house while the Ramseys were with the White’s. They think that the killer put the pen and the notepad away so that the Ramseys would not notice anything out of place when they returned. This is probably the simplest explanation there could be for the notepad and pen being put away after the killer used them.

I think the killer probably entered the house after the Ramseys went to bed, so that explanation doesn’t really work for me. Some have suggested that the killer may have had some sort of OCD and so he put things away just because he had to. That’s a pretty simple explanation, too. This could work for me, but if we use my “theory” of intent as a key, the notepad and the pen (and the so-called practice note, the brush end of the paintbrush in the tote, and the handle on the garrote); even the body hidden in the wc) were all used and put where they were found for the same reason: for investigators to find.

My “theory” of intent says that the note and every other aspect of the crime was created specifically for the investigators. The ransom note stops the parents from finding the body and causes them to invite investigators over; the note makes the investigators suspicious. Everythgin follows from there. That’s a pretty simple explanation.
…

AK

I think the problem with your theories is that you are literally creating a fictional character, using hindsight, to match every detail you want it to match. It's literally a straw-man. You created a straw-man intruder, who isn't real in any way, or based off of a real life person that is suspicious. It works perfectly in your own mind, yeah, because it's a fictional straw-man. It can be anything you want or need it to be for your ideas to work.

At least with RDI we are held accountable for what we say on the behaviour and the likelihood of three specific people doing X Y or Z. You have the luxury of just deciding what the fictional character would or wouldn't do, what would or wouldn't make sense for him. You also have the luxury of changing this at will any time if you get more evidence. This is why it's impossible to discuss this case with you, because you created a perfect imaginary man who ticks every checkbox in your list, with room for improvement if he needs it. Everyone else is busy thinking about the reality of that night, and trying to decipher what does and does not make sense for three real life people. This is why the night appears 'simple' or 'easy' to you. Because you created the fictional perfect man for the job. Yeah, of course that would be simple. But there's no evidence this human exists, so why exactly should we take anything you suggest seriously?
 
Let’s see . . .

IIRC,
- You were challenged on a fact of stating that JonBenét’s body had not been moved.
- Then you provided a ‘fact’ derived from forensics, to prove it.
- My post stated that there wasn’t any detective who specified that the moving of her body was or was not a fact, and
- In keeping with livor mortis forensics I provided a scenario in which JonBenét’s body could have been moved. (Speculative, sure, but not forensically untruthful.)
- You replied that my scenario is “purely speculative”,. . . occurring in an “improbable fashion” . . . “far-fetched”. . . “unnecessarily complex.”

Wait a minute, you forgot “silly”.

Why does this feel ad hominem . . . ?

Rather than me taking the detour quoting references for JR’s visits to the basement, I’ll just comment you can find this info in ST and Kolar’s books.

I don’t know why my critique felt ad hominem to you. It wasn’t; and, if I had said that your speculation was silly, that would not be ad hominem, either. If I said YOU were silly, that would be ad hominem. Ad hominem is an attack against a person. I made attacks against your argument. HUGE difference.

And, I stand by my critique.

As for not quoting references, if you don’t want to prove your point, that’s fine.

I have no access to any of my books, and my other resources are limited until I get my system rebuilt, so it doesn’t help your case very much if all you’re willing to say is that info is in a cpl books.
…

AK
 
If the pages are laid out, Patsy does what- steps over them, goes down a couple of more steps to be eye level and reads from there? Wouldn't the natural instinct be to pick them up? Why avoid touching it unless you are guilty?

She would have to step past the note if she wanted to pick it up. Try it. You don’t even need spiral stairs. Just try it.
If she was guilty she wouldn’t have to avoid touching it because “innocent”” her would be the one touching it.
…

AK
 
Why leave a note at all? If you aren't taking the body and haven't left any other traces of yourself, why leave an incriminating note with your handwriting? If there is no note, LE will immediately arrest the parents upon discovery of the body. It is the appearance of the note that would lead to the parents NOT being arrested in the first place. Not leaving a note means an intruder would almost certainly never be suspected let alone entertained as a theory.

You’ve made some nice points, here.

Several reasons for an intruder leaving the note have been offered many, many times. I don’t think listing them again will make any difference, but on request, I’ll do it.

Lately, I’ve been using my own “theory” of intent as a key to explain things. This “theory” explains why the note was left: the crime was created for investigators (profilers), the note served to prevent the parents from finding the body thus preserving the crime scene for investigators. The note brings the investigators to the house and makes them immediately suspicious. Without the note, the parents find the body and possibly ruin the scene left for investigators (this happened anyway, BUT it should NOT have happened).

It is good that you recognize that leaving 2 ½ pages of handwritten material is to leave self-incriminating evidence. Pretty stupid thing to do if you’re a Ramsey. But, here’s the thing. It is not uncommon for people to leave handwritten evidence that could be traced back to them. Bomb threats, death threats, blackmail, hate mail, etc. are often hand written. You can see several examples here http://tinyurl.com/myrq3lg and here http://tinyurl.com/lmulp8l

Son of Sam, the Zodiac, BTK: examples of people who wrote letters by hand knowing full well that they were creating and providing investigators with evidence that could be used against them.

Of course, in most cases these writers are people who believe themselves to be exempt from scrutiny, that their handwriting will never be compared. This cannot be said for the Ramseys. In the case of the Ramseys, the question is valid: why would they (he or she) want to leave evidence that could be traced back to them (him or her), in the form of a hand written note?
.

If RDI, the Ramseys could have done a million and one things that would not include a note, or a garrote, or a sexual assault at or near point of death, etc. There is no reason to believe that, if RDI, without a note the Ramseys would have done everything else exactly the same; without a note, everything else could have been completely different (ex: an accident; or, stage a break in, claim a struggle with an assailant, fake an injury, etc).

If RDI, the note was completely unnecessary, self-incriminating and a contradiction to what they needed to do: explain a body in the house.
…

AK
 
I think the problem with your theories is that you are literally creating a fictional character, using hindsight, to match every detail you want it to match. It's literally a straw-man. You created a straw-man intruder, who isn't real in any way, or based off of a real life person that is suspicious. It works perfectly in your own mind, yeah, because it's a fictional straw-man. It can be anything you want or need it to be for your ideas to work.

At least with RDI we are held accountable for what we say on the behaviour and the likelihood of three specific people doing X Y or Z. You have the luxury of just deciding what the fictional character would or wouldn't do, what would or wouldn't make sense for him. You also have the luxury of changing this at will any time if you get more evidence. This is why it's impossible to discuss this case with you, because you created a perfect imaginary man who ticks every checkbox in your list, with room for improvement if he needs it. Everyone else is busy thinking about the reality of that night, and trying to decipher what does and does not make sense for three real life people. This is why the night appears 'simple' or 'easy' to you. Because you created the fictional perfect man for the job. Yeah, of course that would be simple. But there's no evidence this human exists, so why exactly should we take anything you suggest seriously?

A Straw Man is misrepresentation of another person’s argument constructed solely for the purpose of tearing down. Nothing in my “theory” of intent is concerned with anyone else’s argument, so, I cannot have created a Straw Man. You can say that I have created a fictional character (I’m okay with this term), but NOT a Straw Man.

I have not created a fictional character who “can be anything want or need it to be for [my] ideas to work.” That is a Straw Man created by you, and, I challenge you to support that claim. I think you are wrong in your assessment, but if you can show that I am the one who is wrong, I’ll admit it. I find that easy, too.

In fact, I have said almost NOTHING about this fictional character. I use the “theory” as a key to explain evidence (the note, the body in the house, the so-called practice note; the use of the paintbrush, the breaking of the paintbrush, the brush end in the paint tote, items connected to the house used and left behind, items used but not connected to the house removed; etc, etc). I don’t talk about the fictional character at all. I talk about what he did. And, what he did is always explained as having been done for the same reason. One explanation. All of his actions consistent with that one explanation. I think this is exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. And, I second that challenge.
…

AK
 
A Straw Man is misrepresentation of another person’s argument constructed solely for the purpose of tearing down. Nothing in my “theory” of intent is concerned with anyone else’s argument, so, I cannot have created a Straw Man. You can say that I have created a fictional character (I’m okay with this term), but NOT a Straw Man.

I have not created a fictional character who “can be anything want or need it to be for [my] ideas to work.” That is a Straw Man created by you, and, I challenge you to support that claim. I think you are wrong in your assessment, but if you can show that I am the one who is wrong, I’ll admit it. I find that easy, too.

In fact, I have said almost NOTHING about this fictional character. I use the “theory” as a key to explain evidence (the note, the body in the house, the so-called practice note; the use of the paintbrush, the breaking of the paintbrush, the brush end in the paint tote, items connected to the house used and left behind, items used but not connected to the house removed; etc, etc). I don’t talk about the fictional character at all. I talk about what he did. And, what he did is always explained as having been done for the same reason. One explanation. All of his actions consistent with that one explanation. I think this is exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. And, I second that challenge.
…

AK


In debates a straw man is used in this way, that's correct. I think it's based on the same idea - a fictional character. A straw man is just something that represents an idea or archetype but not a real human being. I think that sums up your personal hypothesis with this intruder. Since this term could be construed as confusing, though, I'll say fictional character.

Basically, the way I see it, your intruder is perfectly suited to everything for this crime because you are using 20-20 hindsight when creating him. Why is there so much confusion? Your char wanted there to be confusion. Problem solved. Why is there cover-up staging if an intruder did it? Your intruder was just this type of guy. The kind of guy who enjoys toying with the police. Why isn't his DNA in CODIS already considering he enjoys messing with the police AND the FBI? This guy only did it once, I guess you're trying to say, and pulled it off perfectly. Or he is flat out amazing and does this a lot and never gets caught. Doesn't matter. Fictional intruder can be whatever suits IDI.

You even claimed he had OCD which is why he put the pen and pad back. If you based this on an actual person (an as of yet unidentified serial killer, or a person familiar to Ramsey's and therefore 'web sleuths' like us) then we could all talk about whether or not this person fits. But it doesn't matter. Fictional char fits whatever you need him to fit. If he needs OCD or needs to be a neat freak, okay sure! Why not? If it were a real person we could at least analyze and say, hmmm Mr. XYZ doesn't seem to be a neat freak but maybe he is someone who has shown unhealthy obsessions with children/killing/whatever. Then everyone would have something to work with and we'd all be able to discuss this suspect.

And you know, if there were messes all over the house, too, you'd have some explanation for that. He's fictional, so I can even do it. I'd say, fictional intruder had a split personality. Messy sometimes, neat other times. It's easy. I can make up fake stories all day long. But it doesn't help solve this case, and it doesn't help bring justice to JBR. It only serves to help get the Ramsey's off the hook.

The way you connect the dots reminds me of tin foil hat conspiracy theorists. I am not saying this is what you are at all. You don't seem to go off on tangents about the government or anything. But one of the big problems I see with your case theory is that it holds about as much water as the people who say the moon landing is fake. They explain away every single thing presented to them and connect the dots in such a bizarre way that you just have to shake your head in disbelief, you know? I mean for the pineapple digestion you have said that JBR caught a stomach bug that, miraculously, was just barely starting right when it needed to start, but showed no other symptoms whatsoever except for slowed digestion. That's just one example of how far one has to go to connect the dots in the same way that you are connecting them.

Anyway, this is not meant to be an attack on you personally. This is, however, meant to debate your theory and the entire thought-process behind the theory.
 
I don’t know why my critique felt ad hominem to you. It wasn’t; and, if I had said that your speculation was silly, that would not be ad hominem, either. If I said YOU were silly, that would be ad hominem. Ad hominem is an attack against a person. I made attacks against your argument. HUGE difference.

And, I stand by my critique.

As for not quoting references, if you don’t want to prove your point, that’s fine.

I have no access to any of my books, and my other resources are limited until I get my system rebuilt, so it doesn’t help your case very much if all you’re willing to say is that info is in a cpl books.
…

AK
Leave the debate definition aside. When demeaning words are used to describe another’s thoughts or reasoning, those words are received as though meant to be demeaning to the person. (It's something marriage counselors work to correct with disagreeing partners.)

Sorry, I’ve had the experience of providing (to IDI) references to information in Kolar’s and ST’s books in the past. I may as well have explained apoptotic and necrotic action to my parakeet, since the information has been ignored. If you want to judge me as having a weak case, that’s fine.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad-hominem
 
Leave the debate definition aside. When demeaning words are used to describe another’s thoughts or reasoning, those words are received as though meant to be demeaning to the person. (It's something marriage counselors work to correct with disagreeing partners.)

Sorry, I’ve had the experience of providing (to IDI) references to information in Kolar’s and ST’s books in the past. I may as well have explained apoptotic and necrotic action to my parakeet, since the information has been ignored. If you want to judge me as having a weak case, that’s fine.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad-hominem

It’s unfortunate if you take criticism of an argument personally. However, it is a FACT that my criticism was NOT ad hominem. Look to the definition you linked to. Two definitions and neither one applies to my criticism of your argument.

I don’t judge YOU with having a weak case, I judge the argument as being weak. HUGE difference. YOU have nothing to do with it.
…

AK
 

It's important to note that the picture that shows three pages on top of one of the steps is not how the note was originally looked at by police. If I remember correctly, PR never states which exact step they were found on. Normally, she just says they were on one of the steps near the bottom.

You'd think she would have stepped on them. I mean it's a dark house, it's early. I wouldn't have noticed them there and would have walked right over them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The pages were face down, correct? If they are that makes it even more puzzling since Patsy would probably assume they were just blank pages. You would think the intruder would put them face up.
 
The pages were face down, correct? If they are that makes it even more puzzling since Patsy would probably assume they were just blank pages. You would think the intruder would put them face up.

Pages were not face down. Patsy stepped over them and apparently began to read them without touching them.
 
Thanks. Does anyone know if Patsy wore glasses?

I seem to recall her saying during her June 1998 BPD interview that she didn't wear glasses back then in Dec 1996, but she wore them now for reading.
 
In debates a straw man is used in this way, that's correct. I think it's based on the same idea - a fictional character. A straw man is just something that represents an idea or archetype but not a real human being. I think that sums up your personal hypothesis with this intruder. Since this term could be construed as confusing, though, I'll say fictional character.

Basically, the way I see it, your intruder is perfectly suited to everything for this crime because you are using 20-20 hindsight when creating him. Why is there so much confusion? Your char wanted there to be confusion. Problem solved. Why is there cover-up staging if an intruder did it? Your intruder was just this type of guy. The kind of guy who enjoys toying with the police. Why isn't his DNA in CODIS already considering he enjoys messing with the police AND the FBI? This guy only did it once, I guess you're trying to say, and pulled it off perfectly. Or he is flat out amazing and does this a lot and never gets caught. Doesn't matter. Fictional intruder can be whatever suits IDI.

You even claimed he had OCD which is why he put the pen and pad back. If you based this on an actual person (an as of yet unidentified serial killer, or a person familiar to Ramsey's and therefore 'web sleuths' like us) then we could all talk about whether or not this person fits. But it doesn't matter. Fictional char fits whatever you need him to fit. If he needs OCD or needs to be a neat freak, okay sure! Why not? If it were a real person we could at least analyze and say, hmmm Mr. XYZ doesn't seem to be a neat freak but maybe he is someone who has shown unhealthy obsessions with children/killing/whatever. Then everyone would have something to work with and we'd all be able to discuss this suspect.

And you know, if there were messes all over the house, too, you'd have some explanation for that. He's fictional, so I can even do it. I'd say, fictional intruder had a split personality. Messy sometimes, neat other times. It's easy. I can make up fake stories all day long. But it doesn't help solve this case, and it doesn't help bring justice to JBR. It only serves to help get the Ramsey's off the hook.

The way you connect the dots reminds me of tin foil hat conspiracy theorists. I am not saying this is what you are at all. You don't seem to go off on tangents about the government or anything. But one of the big problems I see with your case theory is that it holds about as much water as the people who say the moon landing is fake. They explain away every single thing presented to them and connect the dots in such a bizarre way that you just have to shake your head in disbelief, you know? I mean for the pineapple digestion you have said that JBR caught a stomach bug that, miraculously, was just barely starting right when it needed to start, but showed no other symptoms whatsoever except for slowed digestion. That's just one example of how far one has to go to connect the dots in the same way that you are connecting them.

Anyway, this is not meant to be an attack on you personally. This is, however, meant to debate your theory and the entire thought-process behind the theory.

“A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

For example, Andreww, you wrote that I “even claimed he had OCD which is why he put the pen and pad back.”

Wrong. I wrote BBM, “Some have suggested that the killer may have had some sort of OCD and so he put things away just because he had to. That’s a pretty simple explanation, too. This could work for me, but if we use my “theory” of intent as a key, the notepad and the pen (and the so-called practice note, the brush end of the paintbrush in the tote, and the handle on the garrote); even the body hidden in the wc) were all used and put where they were found for the same reason: for investigators to find.

See, no ocd for my guy, You saying that my guy had ocd is a misrepresentation of what I actually said, YOU just created a Straw Man, by refuting an argument that I never made.

I’ll repeat: but if we use my “theory” of intent as a key, the notepad and the pen (and the so-called practice note, the brush end of the paintbrush in the tote, and the handle on the garrote); even the body hidden in the wc) were all used and put where they were found for the same reason: for investigators to find.

You wrote, “why is there so much confusion?” And, then you say that I created a character who wanted there to be confusion.”

Bzzzt. Wrong, Straw Man. I never said these things, either. In fact, I don’t think things are confusing at all. And, I never said that my character wanted there to be confusion. What I am proposing REMOVES the confusion and proposes a single intent behind virtually every act committed. If there is confusion, then IMO it results from thinking RDI.

One last Straw Man: you wrote that I “said that JBR caught a stomach bug that, miraculously, was just barely starting right when it needed to start, but showed no other symptoms whatsoever except for slowed digestion.” In fact, I offered 5 or 6 pineapple scenarios of which this is only one; and, I have often said that my preferred scenario has jbr eating the pineapple about 30 minutes before she was attacked. I often argue that this (the pineapple) is an area of great uncertainty.

Criticism is welcome and when properly applied beneficial; but, you guys need to start criticizing what I’m actually saying. If you don’t understand what I’m saying, ask for clarification.
…

AK
 
snip
…

AK

I had a strange feeling that your response would just be picking apart every little detail. That's how you deal with this case I think, too. But my main point stands, and I stand by it. You created a fictional character that fits whatever you need him to fit for your theory, and you created him in hindsight with tons of information on exactly what went down. This makes it impossible to discuss your theory in a meaningful way at all.
 
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