Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[DeeDee249]

That wasn't my original quote- sometimes the "quote" button doesn't capture the actual poster who made the original post.

But for the record, i already posted that I do not believe EITHER parent would have EVER left BR behind for any reason, for any length of time.
For one, they would have bee too concerned he would say something incriminating the family. He already admitted he was really awake that morning and pretended to be asleep. He was heard on the enhanced 911 tape. He knows SOMETHING.
I believe that even though this may have been a dysfunctional family, even though many do not agree with their choices (the pageants), even though they may have been obnoxious show-offs and even though someone in the family (not necessarily the parents) had been abusing JB- even taking all this into account- the death of JB, brutal as it was, was not intentional. They did love their children and would never have abandoned their son forever.
That alone would point to their guilt. There is nowhere in the world they could hide- they'd become world-wide fugitives- and they don't have THAT kind of resources. They were going to Atlanta, not a hidden private island or secret underground bunker. There is no waiver of extradition for murder. They could have (and would have) been brought to Colorado for charges to be filed if it came to that.
There is simply no rational reason for them to have left town without him. None.
If JR's original plan had worked and they were able to fly to Atlanta, they'd have picked BR up on the way to the airport or had FW drive him to the airport.

 

[UKGuy]

That wasn't my original quote- sometimes the "quote" button doesn't capture the actual poster who made the original post.

But for the record, i already posted that I do not believe EITHER parent would have EVER left BR behind for any reason, for any length of time.
For one, they would have bee too concerned he would say something incriminating the family. He already admitted he was really awake that morning and pretended to be asleep. He was heard on the enhanced 911 tape. He knows SOMETHING.
I believe that even though this may have been a dysfunctional family, even though many do not agree with their choices (the pageants), even though they may have been obnoxious show-offs and even though someone in the family (not necessarily the parents) had been abusing JB- even taking all this into account- the death of JB, brutal as it was, was not intentional. They did love their children and would never have abandoned their son forever.
That alone would point to their guilt. There is nowhere in the world they could hide- they'd become world-wide fugitives- and they don't have THAT kind of resources. They were going to Atlanta, not a hidden private island or secret underground bunker. There is no waiver of extradition for murder. They could have (and would have) been brought to Colorado for charges to be filed if it came to that.
There is simply no rational reason for them to have left town without him. None.
If JR's original plan had worked and they were able to fly to Atlanta, they'd have picked BR up on the way to the airport or had FW drive him to the airport.

DeeDee249,

If JR's original plan had worked and they were able to fly to Atlanta, they'd have picked BR up on the way to the airport or had FW drive him to the airport.

Well, well, so what was John's original plan?

I'm a believer in KISS, Occam etc. So we have a homicide and sexual assault, then we have the alleged killer bailing out of the state in his own private plane. So accepting this, I reckon he will fly out of the USA to some other jurisdiction, simply because the intent is to evade capture and arrest.

Why should he stop enroute to pickup Burke, who is safe, and endanger his masterplan? John is smart enough to know, even if he picks up Burke, whats to stop Fleet from phoning the police right away, just as he gets back in his car, putting his plan at risk?

Burke like JonBenet was to be left behind!


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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

Well, well, so what was John's original plan?

I'm a believer in KISS, Occam etc. So we have a homicide and sexual assault, then we have the alleged killer bailing out of the state in his own private plane. So accepting this, I reckon he will fly out of the USA to some other jurisdiction, simply because the intent is to evade capture and arrest.

Why should he stop enroute to pickup Burke, who is safe, and endanger his masterplan? John is smart enough to know, even if he picks up Burke, whats to stop Fleet from phoning the police right away, just as he gets back in his car, putting his plan at risk?

Burke like JonBenet was to be left behind!


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BR was "safe" because there was never any danger. BR heard and/or saw something. There was a GREAT risk he might say something. Also LE could have gotten to him, and tried to question him without his parents present.

JR's plan was to fly himself, Patsy and BR to his in-laws home in Atlanta and let the lawyers keep LE away.
But I don't think he really would have done it anyway. I can't see them leaving JB to rot in the basement.

 

[GingBreade]

BR was "safe" because there was never any danger. BR heard and/or saw something. There was a GREAT risk he might say something. Also LE could have gotten to him, and tried to question him without his parents present.

JR's plan was to fly himself, Patsy and BR to his in-laws home in Atlanta and let the lawyers keep LE away.
But I don't think he really would have done it anyway. I can't see them leaving JB to rot in the basement.

But they DID leave her to rot by the christmas tree!? I fully think John would have loaded them all up if he could and flown away to Atlanta.

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

You know, the more I think about it, I simply can't see EITHER parent covering up for the other. This was THEIR CHILD, and she was DEAD. Imagine these scenarios: Patsy kills JB accidentally with a bash/slam to the head. JR finds out but agrees to help with the cover up because he has sexually abused her? So after their daughter has been killed NOW he has to tell Patsy that he's been sexually molesting her, so he'll help her stage it to look like a kidnapping so no one will find out? Unlikely.
Or JR kills JB with a bash on the head because she screamed as she was being sexually molested and Patsy agrees to cover it up so she can continue to enjoy her lifestyle?
Unlikely.
BUT envision their son(s) as the perps and you have a whole 'nother ball game.
NOW I can see it.

No way Patsy did all of this by herself, and JR just goes along with it when he finds out.

or maybe JR has been abusing her daughter before, JBR told her mom about it that night, so PR did hit her on the head, so JR and PR had to cover it up because both were guilty?! what I do not get it is why if dad was the abuser, the autopsy says someone has abused her with a finger or kinda other instrument? was she abused by JR ,so why with a finger?

 

[BBB167893]

or maybe JR has been abusing her daughter before, JBR told her mom about it that night, so PR did hit her on the head, so JR and PR had to cover it up because both were guilty?!

Dirk, that actually is my theory. I posted it somewhere around here.

what I do not get it is why if dad was the abuser, the autopsy says someone has abused her with a finger or kinda other instrument? was she abused by JR ,so why with a finger?

Well, Dirk, according to all the literature I've come across, it's actually fairly common among long-term male abusers not to go for direct penile penetration right away. There's a "grooming" period in which digital penetration is used to gently stretch the vagina over time so as to prepare it for penile penetration, ie, get it large enough so it won't be torn to shreds by the member.

God, I hated writing that.

 

[UKGuy]

or maybe JR has been abusing her daughter before, JBR told her mom about it that night, so PR did hit her on the head, so JR and PR had to cover it up because both were guilty?! what I do not get it is why if dad was the abuser, the autopsy says someone has abused her with a finger or kinda other instrument? was she abused by JR ,so why with a finger?

DIRK SCHILLER,
Not quite. Coroner Meyer stated there was both digital penetration and sexual contact. These might be coincident or separate events. Take your pick. Evidently Coroner Meyer considered it important enought to make the distinction since you might be forgiven for assuming digital penetration alone is sufficient for sexual contact?

I reckon Coroner Meyer could be suggesting there was sexual contact undertaken prior to JonBenet's death. But at some point digital penetration was enacted as part of a staged sexual assault along with the garrote, size-12's and longjohns etc?

Also it would have been nice to hear Coroner Meyer's rationale for arriving at digital penetration , since he was not present. Yet we know the stager had access to a paintbrush handle!

In other words it looks like some evidence has been redacted?



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[UKGuy]

But they DID leave her to rot by the christmas tree!? I fully think John would have loaded them all up if he could and flown away to Atlanta.

GingBreade,
Of course! Its not as if this was a vacation trip. This was an attempt to evade justice. And if it means leaving your children behind, albeit knowing they will be safe in the hands of Fleet White et-al, so be it.

Lets Fly, Fy Away


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[DeeDee249]

But they DID leave her to rot by the christmas tree!? I fully think John would have loaded them all up if he could and flown away to Atlanta.

That was totally different. Leaving her in the basement would mean she was not "discovered". We already know that police would never have found her- they were so incompetent the first officer there never even looked in that room, despite having found the room- he never even looked up to see the simple wood latch that was all that stood between him and JB's corpse on he other side of the door- he couldn't figure out how to open the door! As far as I know, Detective Arndt never searched the house herself.

Leaving her under the tree was another matter. She had already been "found", brought up from the basement and LE was aware of her. She wouldn't have been there too long- the morgue would be picking her up.

JB wouldn't have left his son with FW indefinitely. The friends became enemies quickly- within a matter of days. I'd say that proved FW knew something that made JR very worried. So the way he dealt with him, and the way the Rs dealt with ANYONE who might think about voicing their suspicions, was to point a finger at any potential accuser and accuse them (or threaten to) of being the killer. There is no way the Rs would leave their son with someone who they feared might accuse them of knowing what happened or of being responsible for it.
I feel, had JR's flight to Atlanta been allowed, he'd have picked up BR from FW's house that day- before FW had a chance to re-think the Rs guilt and/or knowledge about their daughter's murder.

 

[UKGuy]

That was totally different. Leaving her in the basement would mean she was not "discovered". We already know that police would never have found her- they were so incompetent the first officer there never even looked in that room, despite having found the room- he never even looked up to see the simple wood latch that was all that stood between him and JB's corpse on he other side of the door- he couldn't figure out how to open the door! As far as I know, Detective Arndt never searched the house herself.

Leaving her under the tree was another matter. She had already been "found", brought up from the basement and LE was aware of her. She wouldn't have been there too long- the morgue would be picking her up.

JB wouldn't have left his son with FW indefinitely. The friends became enemies quickly- within a matter of days. I'd say that proved FW knew something that made JR very worried. So the way he dealt with him, and the way the Rs dealt with ANYONE who might think about voicing their suspicions, was to point a finger at any potential accuser and accuse them (or threaten to) of being the killer. There is no way the Rs would leave their son with someone who they feared might accuse them of knowing what happened or of being responsible for it.
I feel, had JR's flight to Atlanta been allowed, he'd have picked up BR from FW's house that day- before FW had a chance to re-think the Rs guilt and/or knowledge about their daughter's murder.

DeeDee249,

I feel, had JR's flight to Atlanta been allowed, he'd have picked up BR from FW's house that day- before FW had a chance to re-think the Rs guilt and/or knowledge about their daughter's murder.

The R's had a plan, we know that because of the staging, including the ransom note and Patsy's inconsistent statements.

We also know that a flight had already been scheduled for that morning, so this would have to be factored into any plan e.g. cancellation.

That John Ramsey was complicit in the execution of the staging was his decision to relocate Burke Ramsey out of the house, early that morning.

Essentially there could only be two outcomes to this strategy:

1. JonBenet is found, after a quick search.

2. JonBenet is not found at all.

Now outcome 2. cannot be the one the R's assumed might occur since they did remove Burke Ramsey.

It follows Burke Ramsey was not included in the final steps of the plan, why, because he was not there.

So enroute to their flight why should the R's endanger their plan, by stopping to pick up Burke who is in no danger, and I assume is innocent of any crime?

Leaving Burke Ramsey behind was part of the plan!


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[DeeDee249]

I disagree. They'd have never left him behind. It is illogical to think that just because he was in no danger they'd have left him where he was. Do you really think they would have left him there for good? They wouldn't have left him there even overnight.
Three people wake up alive in a home where the fourth is murdered. Those three people will stick together, believe me.
Sending him to the White's was done to keep LE from talking to him or observing him, and to keep him from being there when his sister's dead body was found. He wasn't sent there so that they could leave without him. JR was heard to tell his pilot that he wanted to fly "the rest of my family" to Atlanta, not "me and my wife". BR was gong to be on that plane.

 

[UKGuy]

I disagree. They'd have never left him behind. It is illogical to think that just because he was in no danger they'd have left him where he was. Do you really think they would have left him there for good? They wouldn't have left him there even overnight.
Three people wake up alive in a home where the fourth is murdered. Those three people will stick together, believe me.
Sending him to the White's was done to keep LE from talking to him or observing him, and to keep him from being there when his sister's dead body was found. He wasn't sent there so that they could leave without him. JR was heard to tell his pilot that he wanted to fly "the rest of my family" to Atlanta, not "me and my wife". BR was gong to be on that plane.

DeeDee249,

It is illogical to think that just because he was in no danger they'd have left him where he was.

Really, demonstrate the illogicallity, e.g. derive a contradiction.

Do you really think they would have left him there for good? They wouldn't have left him there even overnight.

If JR and PR had been arrested and detained for questioning, then BR may indeed have been left overnight. JR's action wrt BR tell us he was uncertain about the outcome of the Abduction Scenario. Otherwise he would not have relocated BR.

He wasn't sent there so that they could leave without him

I never said he was. I do not know JR's motive. I only know his action.

Do you really think they would have left him there for good?

Probably not. But if he is safe, and if we assume, as I do, that he is innocent, so not in any judicial danger, then any other Ramsey relative can collect him at a later date.

Burke Ramsey was not the pressing issue when John Ramsey made the call to his pilot. Evading justice and the long arm of the law was, he wanted to flee Colorado ASAP, and stopping to pick up Burke enroute might endanger that plan. If Burke had been intended to accompany his parents in their Great Escape why was he relocated away from the house.

I reckon JR was thinking ahead to when he and PR might be on the run, fugitives from justice, and Burke just might represent a logistical problem, particularly in terms of identification?

JR was heard to tell his pilot that he wanted to fly "the rest of my family" to Atlanta, not "me and my wife". BR was gong to be on that plane.

So why was Burke relocated then, of course JR can say anything he wants to justify his request.

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[DeeDee249]

I have mentioned MANY times that JR's motivation for sending BR to the White's was twofold. First, to keep LE who were at the house from observing and/or talking to him and second, because they did not want him to be there and risk him seeing his sister's dead body when she was found. JR KNEW she was going to be brought up from the basement at some point. LE had not been able to find her, and if he had wanted her to remain undiscovered he could very easily have done so- yet he brought her up himself after it became apparent that LE had no intention of leaving the Rs alone in the house.

 

[UKGuy]

I have mentioned MANY times that JR's motivation for sending BR to the White's was twofold. First, to keep LE who were at the house from observing and/or talking to him and second, because they did not want him to be there and risk him seeing his sister's dead body when she was found. JR KNEW she was going to be brought up from the basement at some point. LE had not been able to find her, and if he had wanted her to remain undiscovered he could very easily have done so- yet he brought her up himself after it became apparent that LE had no intention of leaving the Rs alone in the house.

DeeDee249,

I have mentioned MANY times that JR's motivation for sending BR to the White's was twofold. First, to keep LE who were at the house from observing and/or talking to him and second, because they did not want him to be there and risk him seeing his sister's dead body when she was found.

Your speculation might be correct. Although BPD could contact BR at any point, a shift in time, does not prevent difficult questions being asked.

JR KNEW she was going to be brought up from the basement at some point.

So you reckon JR had a specific plan?

If BPD had been competent then JonBenet would have been found and the R's arrested, in fact even with JR finding JonBenet they would still have been arrested.

So just what did JR think was going to transpire, Burke present or not?

You reckon JR thought I'll find JonBenet then tell these guys I have a scheduled appointment in Atlanta, then me and PR can bail out ASAP, and I'll phone FW so I can collect BR on the way to the airport. Yes no problem there at all, excellent plan?

Except they are explicitly abandoning JonBenet to fate!

KISS and occam suggest BR was a problem and would continue to be a problem if the R's became fugitives from justice, so BR was relocated. Simples!

With the lack of care or compassion shown towards JonBenet, and the brutality of the staging suggests the R's were quite capable of dumping BR to save their own skins.

Your argument rests on the opposite e.g. they were kind, compassionate parents who cared for their childrens welfare. So took steps to place BR at a safe location.

I dont buy it, its that simple!





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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

Your speculation might be correct. Although BPD could contact BR at any point, a shift in time, does not prevent difficult questions being asked.


So you reckon JR had a specific plan?

If BPD had been competent then JonBenet would have been found and the R's arrested, in fact even with JR finding JonBenet they would still have been arrested.

So just what did JR think was going to transpire, Burke present or not?

You reckon JR thought I'll find JonBenet then tell these guys I have a scheduled appointment in Atlanta, then me and PR can bail out ASAP, and I'll phone FW so I can collect BR on the way to the airport. Yes no problem there at all, excellent plan?

Except they are explicitly abandoning JonBenet to fate!

KISS and occam suggest BR was a problem and would continue to be a problem if the R's became fugitives from justice, so BR was relocated. Simples!

With the lack of care or compassion shown towards JonBenet, and the brutality of the staging suggests the R's were quite capable of dumping BR to save their own skins.

Your argument rests on the opposite e.g. they were kind, compassionate parents who cared for their childrens welfare. So took steps to place BR at a safe location.

I dont buy it, its that simple!

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I have mentioned MY theory of JR's "specific plan" more times than I can say. I don't know why you need me to repeat it but:

It had nothing to do with placing BR in a safe location. His own home was safe, because there was no kidnapper and no danger. It had everything to do with preventing police from observing and talking to him that day, and everything to do with preventing BR from seeing his sister's dead body when it was found. If you view that as "kind compassion" so be it. To me, it was a no-brainer.
Their plan, IMO, was to wait until police left the house, then bring her up from the wineceller, where they had hidden her. This way, they could call police to say that she had been returned, but had been killed because they called police. Then, when it became apparent that police were not going to leave them alone in the house, JR had to change the plan and bring find her himself before too much time had elapsed and the body became more decomposed.
Of course, this plan had some holes in it. Some things seemed not to have been thought out, or we are simply not aware of it because it did not take place. Had they claimed she had been returned, where was she placed? Did the kidnappers put her on the front steps and ring the bell? Why wouldn't they have been seen? How would rigor and livor mortis have been factored in? The Rs were not knowledgeable about these matters to the extent that they would have known that the coroner would find discrepancies in their claims. After all, they did not realize the pineapple could be detected in the autopsy.
How the R were going to work out the logistics of this plan, if it indeed was the plan, is unknown.
I feel the Rs had distanced themselves from JB, her corpse, and the events of the night as soon as they placed the 911 call. What you view as brutal disregard I see as self-preservation. Once they were in that mind-set, the momentum carried them away. Eventually people like that actually believe their own lies.

Lets face it, we do not know exactly what the Rs were panning. And I am tired of going back and forth about it. The FACT is that BR was sent to the White's early that morning after the first officer had arrived and obviously at that time, JR was unaware of FW's earlier trip to the wineceller and unaware that FW would comment to about it. At that time, there was no reason for JR to believe that FW suspected anything. My theories about why BR was sent to the White's make sense to ME, and fit in to most RDI theories.
If you disagree, fine. I strongly disagree that the Rs planned to leave their son behind in a flight out of Boulder. So we'll have to agree to disagree and call it a day.

 

[UKGuy]

I have mentioned MY theory of JR's "specific plan" more times than I can say. I don't know why you need me to repeat it but:

It had nothing to do with placing BR in a safe location. His own home was safe, because there was no kidnapper and no danger. It had everything to do with preventing police from observing and talking to him that day, and everything to do with preventing BR from seeing his sister's dead body when it was found. If you view that as "kind compassion" so be it. To me, it was a no-brainer.
Their plan, IMO, was to wait until police left the house, then bring her up from the wineceller, where they had hidden her. This way, they could call police to say that she had been returned, but had been killed because they called police. Then, when it became apparent that police were not going to leave them alone in the house, JR had to change the plan and bring find her himself before too much time had elapsed and the body became more decomposed.
Of course, this plan had some holes in it. Some things seemed not to have been thought out, or we are simply not aware of it because it did not take place. Had they claimed she had been returned, where was she placed? Did the kidnappers put her on the front steps and ring the bell? Why wouldn't they have been seen? How would rigor and livor mortis have been factored in? The Rs were not knowledgeable about these matters to the extent that they would have known that the coroner would find discrepancies in their claims. After all, they did not realize the pineapple could be detected in the autopsy.
How the R were going to work out the logistics of this plan, if it indeed was the plan, is unknown.
I feel the Rs had distanced themselves from JB, her corpse, and the events of the night as soon as they placed the 911 call. What you view as brutal disregard I see as self-preservation. Once they were in that mind-set, the momentum carried them away. Eventually people like that actually believe their own lies.

Lets face it, we do not know exactly what the Rs were panning. And I am tired of going back and forth about it. The FACT is that BR was sent to the White's early that morning after the first officer had arrived and obviously at that time, JR was unaware of FW's earlier trip to the wineceller and unaware that FW would comment to about it. At that time, there was no reason for JR to believe that FW suspected anything. My theories about why BR was sent to the White's make sense to ME, and fit in to most RDI theories.
If you disagree, fine. I strongly disagree that the Rs planned to leave their son behind in a flight out of Boulder. So we'll have to agree to disagree and call it a day.

DeeDee249,
Is it safe to assume JR relocates BR at the point he does because he reckons very shortly BPD will discover JonBenet?

If yes then JR can move onto the next stage of his plan.

Otherwise JR has all day and night to sort BR out, because he explicitly believes his plan as you outline it, later that day, will allow him to claim JonBenet has been returned.

If we assume due to JonBenet not being discovered JR modifies his plan which might include relocating her later that morning, which coincides nicely with lividity no longer being an issue, then this explains why FW saw nothing.

So JR's plan does not require BR to be relocated so early in the morning because JonBenet is not intended to be found until a later point in time.

So it could be JR did not want BR to questioned by BPD. But then they can still ask the same questions at a later point in time, so what is the material advantage here to JR?

For me this suggests JR had a different motive, either JR saw BR as a problem to be relocated or BR is involved in JonBenet's death so JR thought aha a problem, lets relocate him?

My theories about why BR was sent to the White's make sense to ME, and fit in to most RDI theories.

Sure, and I'm certain you know just because the evidence is consistent with your theory does not make it correct. Consider the Catholic Church and their geocentric theory, this was consistent with all their observations, and what the bible told them.



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[momof4ws]

My simple little brain tells me that JR quickly sent BR off to the White's so LE wouldn't ask him questions and it was easy for him to do because of all the people in their house that morning and all the distractions. Perfect time to sneak him out. Plus BR's bff was Fleet's son. And JR getting him out of the house makes me think that BR saw and or heard something bad happen to JB or could have even been a part of what ultimately happened to JB. As far as JR wanting to fly down to Atlanta...hmmm...JB was found and LE were at the White's interviewing BR? Was he in panic mode?

 

[UKGuy]

My simple little brain tells me that JR quickly sent BR off to the White's so LE wouldn't ask him questions and it was easy for him to do because of all the people in their house that morning and all the distractions. Perfect time to sneak him out. Plus BR's bff was Fleet's son. And JR getting him out of the house makes me think that BR saw and or heard something bad happen to JB or could have even been a part of what ultimately happened to JB. As far as JR wanting to fly down to Atlanta...hmmm...JB was found and LE were at the White's interviewing BR? Was he in panic mode?

momof4ws,

My simple little brain tells me that JR quickly sent BR off to the White's so LE wouldn't ask him questions and it was easy for him to do because of all the people in their house that morning and all the distractions.

Although that seems, lets say to suggest the obvious motive, it may not be the only one. By relocating BR , JR is immediately flagging BR up, at least in my eyes. Then again the LE response was disorganized.

Looks to me that JR thought things would pan out like this: BR is relocated, LE find JB, PR and JR then fly off to Atlanta.

Instead what happened was: BR is relocated, JR finds JB, PR and JR stay in Boulder.

So in either instance BR is always available for interview. Investigators can still ask those questions.

 

[Alix]

momof4ws,

Although that seems, lets say to suggest the obvious motive, it may not be the only one. By relocating BR , JR is immediately flagging BR up, at least in my eyes. Then again the LE response was disorganized.

Looks to me that JR thought things would pan out like this: BR is relocated, LE find JB, PR and JR then fly off to Atlanta.

Instead what happened was: BR is relocated, JR finds JB, PR and JR stay in Boulder.

So in either instance BR is always available for interview. Investigators can still ask those questions.

With all due respect, it doesn't make a lick of sense that the Ramsey parents were planning on madly fleeing the country and leaving their weird son to tell the cops his mother murdered his sister. Or whatever he was going to say.

They moved BR out of the house to avoid LE. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

[DeeDee249]

With all due respect, it doesn't make a lick of sense that the Ramsey parents were planning on madly fleeing the country and leaving their weird son to tell the cops his mother murdered his sister. Or whatever he was going to say.

They moved BR out of the house to avoid LE. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

ITA. The Rs didn't change their plans- they simply were not allowed to leave. When JR was overheard making his phone call to his pilot to arrange the flight to Atlanta, JB had already been "found". She would be taken to the Boulder morgue in any event, regardless of where the Rs were. So there was no issue about what to do with JB if they left town. I believe JR assumed that the morgue would release the body to the family and then they would have her body shipped to Atlanta for the funeral. They wouldn't have had any service or funeral there in Boulder- they'd never return, and unless they were charged with a crime, they couldn't be forced to return.
And they'd have picked BR up from FW's house on he way out of town.
As I said, at that point, FW was not a threat to the Rs, JR was unaware of his early morning peek into the wineceller, and unaware that FW would tell LE about it. His son and BR were friends so it was a good place to keep him. I am not sure of the circumstances under which BR was questioned, because I cannot believe they'd do it without a parent or lawyer present. And BR went right to the Fernie's when his parents made the decision to stay there rather than a hotel, as LE suggested.