Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[midwest mama]

SS - Haven't seen you posting in a while, so nice to see you back. I will vouch for your comment of two pedophilia parents being involved with a child.

I shared this story with another WSer her, but will now offer it to the Forum, since your aspect deserves to be validated. My best friend for many years (now deceased, God rest her soul) was a victim of a pedophile father and his wife in his second marriage. It was a frequent enough situation that when my friend became pregnant as a very young teen, she was taken to the hospital to deliver the child, but her father and stepmother brought the baby home as "theirs". The father was a nurse, so I expect he had some pull at the hospital, and before they even all came home from the hospital, my friend developed a psychosis severe enough to detach herself not only from the delivery, but from any previous remembrance of her molestation.

The baby was adopted and raised as her "sister", and over a very short period of time, they stopped sexually molesting my friend and went to work on mistreating her enough to have her agree to leave the home as soon as possible. My friend did not come to full recollection and proper help until she was an adult, and in the process of trying to start her own family. I have know this family for decades and I am convinced of my friend's truthful reveal of this tragedy. I shudder to think of what the parental couple might have eventually done to their new "daughter".

So, yes, I believe JR and PR could have both been responsible for JB's death if it was related to pedophilia on their part.

But, I must dismiss PR from her death in favor of my own theory, which includes only JR. :moo:

 

[midwest mama]

I agree with all you said, OM4U. And feel free to insert any time. Were it a private conversation, it would have been in PM instead of here. I hope by discussing it here, others will join in and add to the conversation -- even if it is an opposing view. And, OM, you always add logic and clear thinking to any discussion. I look forward to your posts.

Perfect assessment, otg. IMHO, this case is all about the molestation of a beautiful child, and the fact that in this instance it resulted in a parent killing her.

Where I am still having trouble is whether it was premeditated or the murder resulted as a reaction to the progression of a perpetration that was going awry.

 

[DeeDee249]

Would the head bash, not being the ultimate cause of death, have stopped blood circulation? Could she have been down in the basement with the head injury for awhile before being discovered by PR and JR, who then instigate the garroting? :waitasec:

Just trying to understand--the livor/rigor aspects are my weakest area of knowledge, for sure.

Nothing stops blood circulation except death. Only when the heart stops completely does the blood stop circulating. BUT...going into shock or a coma, etc. can SLOW a beating heart/respiration/blood circulation as well as lowering body temperature. With breathing so shallow as to be almost imperceptible, and a body that felt COOL to the touch, someone in shock or coma can appear to be dead to an untrained eye.
There has been speculation about how much time elapsed between the head bash and strangulation- some experts putting it at up to an hour or so, so yes, she could have been in the basement for a while and then garroted.

 

[SapphireSteel]

SS - Haven't seen you posting in a while, so nice to see you back. I will vouch for your comment of two pedophilia parents being involved with a child.

I shared this story with another WSer her, but will now offer it to the Forum, since your aspect deserves to be validated. My best friend for many years (now deceased, God rest her soul) was a victim of a pedophile father and his wife in his second marriage. It was a frequent enough situation that when my friend became pregnant as a very young teen, she was taken to the hospital to deliver the child, but her father and stepmother brought the baby home as "theirs". The father was a nurse, so I expect he had some pull at the hospital, and before they even all came home from the hospital, my friend developed a psychosis severe enough to detach herself not only from the delivery, but from any previous remembrance of her molestation.

The baby was adopted and raised as her "sister", and over a very short period of time, they stopped sexually molesting my friend and went to work on mistreating her enough to have her agree to leave the home as soon as possible. My friend did not come to full recollection and proper help until she was an adult, and in the process of trying to start her own family. I have know this family for decades and I am convinced of my friend's truthful reveal of this tragedy. I shudder to think of what the parental couple might have eventually done to their new "daughter".

So, yes, I believe JR and PR could have both been responsible for JB's death if it was related to pedophilia on their part.

But, I must dismiss PR from her death in favor of my own theory, which includes only JR. :moo:

Hey MM.

Your poor friend. There is no way a child could "invent" this or the memories. Sexual assault hurts and damages a child very deeply if the offenders are their parents.

Unfortunately this sort of sick stuff was not invented by the Ramseys or your friend's so-called "parents". PR could have been a victim of Nedra and Buck (or whatever his name was), and on it goes. Heck it could even be disguised as what Southern Ladies do. Maybe PR shagged her way to the pageant prize and planned on sacrificing JB the same way so viewed it as "grooming" for the casting couch.

As far as JR's ex wife testifying for him - well he has $$$$., and enough of them to buy or bully pretty much whatever lies he chooses. She is probably his victim too and has been for years.

I believe PR shows indications of Munchausen by proxy, which could also imply she purposefully injured JB for medical attention. The repeated vaginal exams would be her payoff.

Sick, sick individuals, no matter which way you slice it.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have a question for you. My thoughts keep going to the marks on her back and that they sure appear to be made by the train tracks. Is there any possibility that she was killed wherever and hidden in the crawl space immediately after death until livor was fixed, then moved to the WC during JR's disappearance? Would livor be fixed by then? How many hours does it take to be fixed after death?

I'm not saying that she wasn't in the wine cellar all along, but just speculating due to the fact that the train was set up right in front of the entrance to the CS. It seems like an easy explanation that while trying to lay her on the table (in order to open the "door" to the CS), JR might have caught her back against a loose piece of track on the edge of the table.

I guess that brings up another question, (which I know there has been some talk about but no clear answer that I could see) could those marks have been made after death? There was no actual bleeding from them IIRC.

I've always believed that JR did some re-staging during his missing time. He could have pulled her closer to the entrance of the WC, but why? If he knew that he would "find" her later what difference did it make how close she was to the door?

My hesitation about her being in the WC all along is that it was only dumb luck that she wasn't found by French or FW, and I don't believe that they wanted her found in the house. It would be far less likely that she would be found in the CS than the WC. I think they had every intention of dumping her elsewhere after LE left. Then when LE didn't leave, JR moved to plan B.

Not familiar with a "crawl space". I don't know where it was - it is something that I don't recall seeing anything about. Where was the crawl space?
As far as he being somewhere else first- not likely. In order for her to have been moved without making another livor patter, it had to be done within the first hour or so, and by then rigor mortis was forming- you see, these two physical conditions begin around the same time, and coincide, but rigor is a biochemical process and livor is simply gravity acting on liquids in the body that are no longer being pumped around in that body. By the time livor is fixed (which would hide the moving of the body) rigor has begun to form - and that would begin to fix the joints in place, making any other position she was in very obvious. Rigor does not form twice- so there would NOT be a second pattern the way there could be a second livor pattern. And more important- once "broken" (by manipulating the body, redressing or undressing the body, or putting her into a suitcase or smaller area, etc, it will NEVER re-form. JB was in FULL rigor when she was brought up and still in it when the coroner first encountered the body at 8 pm that night. By the time she was autopsied, rigor was dissipating as noted by the coroner in the autopsy and can also be seen in the more flaccid appearance of her fingers and the fact that her arms now appear to be at her sides on the autopsy table.

Dumb luck maybe..but I think that JB may have been put further back in the room so even if French had figured out the technologically advanced (kidding) wood latch he wouldn't have seen her. Unless he walked INTO the WC with a flashlight or been smart enough to find the light switch.
I think that as time passed and it became obvious to JR that the police were not going to leave until he and Patsy left, he pulled her closer to the door so that she COULD be seen more easily because by this time they wanted her found- they weren't going to leave her rotting in the basement for cadaver dogs to find.
There is also the possibility that JR, who seemed genuinely surprised that FW claimed to have gone to the WC early that morning, WANTED her to be found early. When FW said he didn't see her, JR may have realized she was too far back to be seen and decided to move her closer.

 

[BOESP]

DeeDee, here's a photo of the house layout that shows the crawl space:

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/14/94/97/81/ramsey10.jpg

 

[Whaleshark]

I find it interesting that Sapphire Steel thinks it is 'As If' preposterous for the crime to be BDI because the parents would have called 911 in that case or else they would have had to have been psychopathic, so she eliminates this scenario...

But then states they were clearly 'sick' because what she believes they did instead was both ritually sexually abuse her, most probably for John's pleasure, even probably taping it and taking pictures, and states they were both willing participants.

I would think your theory would be considered more psychopathic than the BDI one, in which the parents might be acting to cover the actions of their other child, rather than reveling in their own willing mutual participation of sexual molestation and murder of their daughter together....

.... But what do I know?...

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, here's a photo of the house layout that shows the crawl space:

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/14/94/97/81/ramsey10.jpg

Thanks! I just had not heard that area mentioned as a place JB's body had been. I assume as is the case with other crawl spaces, that is very tight inside, and not a place someone could stand in. I still don't think she'd been in there. Crawl spaces are usually dirt-floored and her clothes would be dirty. And moving her around might break rigor, which wouldn't form again. You have to understand there is only a certain time during which her body could have been moved around, wiped, undressed/redressed, and finally placed in the wine cellar. I just don't see her being moved around after death to that extent from the aspect of there being no sign of it. But thank you for posting that diagram, I am sure I have seen in on ACR or elsewhere but just did not consider she would have been in any other area.

 

[ksprincess]

I dont necessarily have a completely firm theory about which RDI, although I typically lean towards PR with JR's help to cover up. However I do believe its possible BDI. But I firmly believe if anyone wants to say BDI you have to say they all did it! I worked as a social worker in a program for children with severe emotional disturbances for 6 years and had numerous children who had physically or sexually abused siblings and every one of those children had been abused either physically or sexually before doing it to siblings. So if BDI I believe he did it because it had previously been done to him by someone in the home which IMO makes his parents responsible. Also if he did it they covered up for him and I believe if they covered up for him it was to protect themselves from people finding out what went on in their home, not to protect B from getting in trouble. I also believe B should have been atleast temporarily removed from the home while an investigation was done. No matter who did it and if B was part of it or not he was not safe there.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Thanks! I just had not heard that area mentioned as a place JB's body had been. I assume as is the case with other crawl spaces, that is very tight inside, and not a place someone could stand in. I still don't think she'd been in there. Crawl spaces are usually dirt-floored and her clothes would be dirty. And moving her around might break rigor, which wouldn't form again. You have to understand there is only a certain time during which her body could have been moved around, wiped, undressed/redressed, and finally placed in the wine cellar. I just don't see her being moved around after death to that extent from the aspect of there being no sign of it. But thank you for posting that diagram, I am sure I have seen in on ACR or elsewhere but just did not consider she would have been in any other area.

DD, you said DIRT, right? Hmmm.... Duvet! I'm interesting to know if duvet has any dirt on it, possibly from CS...We know that fibers from JAR's duvet have been found on JB's. A lot of them, right?....So, it's possible that JB could be covered in duvet first? I think it's possible. What do you think? Do we know what has been found on duvet in addition to JAR semen?

IMO, very interesting suggestion BOESP!

 

[OpenMind4U]

But on another hand, if JB originally was placed in duvet then HOW and WHEN the duvet was taken away and placed inside of suitcase? FW was moving this suitcase early in morning. He would probably knew if suitcase was felt like empty or not. If JB's body was placed inside of duvet and placed in CS let say at 1:00am and she was there in this position until JR went to the basement at 10am then her rigor should be fixed already, right? DeeDee, would rigor be fully fixed in 9 hours??

....I'm just trying to think hypotetically here....because if it's possible then only FW would know the answer!!!!

 

[dodie20]

DeeDee, here's a photo of the house layout that shows the crawl space:

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/14/94/97/81/ramsey10.jpg

I remember reading in a search warrant, that a canvas bag was taken from the crawl space. Is this the same crawl space, and I'm curious...how big was the bag and was any evidence found on or in it?

 

[DeeDee249]

DD, you said DIRT, right? Hmmm.... Duvet! I'm interesting to know if duvet has any dirt on it, possibly from CS...We know that fibers from JAR's duvet have been found on JB's. A lot of them, right?....So, it's possible that JB could be covered in duvet first? I think it's possible. What do you think? Do we know what has been found on duvet in addition to JAR semen?

IMO, very interesting suggestion BOESP!

As far as I know, JAR's duvet has never been liked to fibers found on JB. There WERE "dark" fibers found on her, and the duvet/comforter was also dark-colored, but officially there was no evidence they were found on JB. There was no mention of dirt on the duvet and the only substance mentioned was JAR's dried semen.

 

[DeeDee249]

But on another hand, if JB originally was placed in duvet then HOW and WHEN the duvet was taken away and placed inside of suitcase? FW was moving this suitcase early in morning. He would probably knew if suitcase was felt like empty or not. If JB's body was placed inside of duvet and placed in CS let say at 1:00am and she was there in this position until JR went to the basement at 10am then her rigor should be fixed already, right? DeeDee, would rigor be fully fixed in 9 hours??

....I'm just trying to think hypotetically here....because if it's possible then only FW would know the answer!!!!

You have to also account for Livor mortis, and as I have said many times- she was NOT placed in that suitcase. Ever. For one thing, there would be a second livor pattern that formed because she would have had to be bent or folded into it and that livor pattern would remain even after her body was placed on her back with legs straight. Rigor would be ALMOST fully fixed after 9 hours- it takes about 12 hours at room temperature. If rigor began to form while she was in that suitcase, depending on the degree, she would not be able to be straightened easily. If someone had forced her legs and torso straight, they would have had to "break" rigor. This can be done, but not easily, and once broken it will not form again. The coroner would be able to tell right away whether rigor had been broken. Rigor dissipates about 36 hours after death. IF the coroner had discovered a flaccid JB only 18 hours after her death (give or take an hour or 2) he would know immediately that someone had manipulated or moved the body.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I find it interesting that Sapphire Steel thinks it is 'As If' preposterous for the crime to be BDI because the parents would have called 911 in that case or else they would have had to have been psychopathic, so she eliminates this scenario...

But then states they were clearly 'sick' because what she believes they did instead was both ritually sexually abuse her, most probably for John's pleasure, even probably taping it and taking pictures, and states they were both willing participants.

I would think your theory would be considered more psychopathic than the BDI one, in which the parents might be acting to cover the actions of their other child, rather than reveling in their own willing mutual participation of sexual molestation and murder of their daughter together....

.... But what do I know?...

Precisely. None of us "know" anything.

So why should another poster's opinion or theory be the subject of derision and snark?

 

[dodie20]

I find it interesting that Sapphire Steel thinks it is 'As If' preposterous for the crime to be BDI because the parents would have called 911 in that case or else they would have had to have been psychopathic, so she eliminates this scenario...

But then states they were clearly 'sick' because what she believes they did instead was both ritually sexually abuse her, most probably for John's pleasure, even probably taping it and taking pictures, and states they were both willing participants.

I would think your theory would be considered more psychopathic than the BDI one, in which the parents might be acting to cover the actions of their other child, rather than reveling in their own willing mutual participation of sexual molestation and murder of their daughter together....

.... But what do I know?...

In defense of the original post, I think I understand what she was trying to say. An abusive parent is sick and abusive on a day to day, minute to minute basis. Being abusive consumes him and defines him as a person. It's what he is. On the other hand, a parent strangling his child to death in order to protect his other child, would force him to come out of his natural definition as a person, (unless he had done it before). I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I do find it almost impossible to imagine. just moo, but this one's a toughie and would depend on what was going on behind closed doors.

 

[SapphireSteel]

No decent, loving parent would willfully sacrifice one child for another.

The Ramseys did just that, under the BDI theory.

Therefore it follows that the Ramseys are not decent, loving parents.

So...what else have they been up to that we don't know about that decent, loving parents also do not do?

Perhaps play sex games with their daughter and accidentally kill her? It happens.

To me it's 2+2=4. :dunno:

 

[Nom de plume]

DeeDee, here's a photo of the house layout that shows the crawl space:

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/14/94/97/81/ramsey10.jpg

Page #465 in Kolar's book is an even better one. It shows another CS behind the WC accessible only (according to the diagram) from the 2nd, or back, CS behind the train room.

 

[Nom de plume]

You have to also account for Livor mortis, and as I have said many times- she was NOT placed in that suitcase. Ever. For one thing, there would be a second livor pattern that formed because she would have had to be bent or folded into it and that livor pattern would remain even after her body was placed on her back with legs straight. Rigor would be ALMOST fully fixed after 9 hours- it takes about 12 hours at room temperature. If rigor began to form while she was in that suitcase, depending on the degree, she would not be able to be straightened easily. If someone had forced her legs and torso straight, they would have had to "break" rigor. This can be done, but not easily, and once broken it will not form again. The coroner would be able to tell right away whether rigor had been broken. Rigor dissipates about 36 hours after death. IF the coroner had discovered a flaccid JB only 18 hours after her death (give or take an hour or 2) he would know immediately that someone had manipulated or moved the body.

I think OM4U was talking about the duvet cover being/not being in the suitcase when FW moved it that morning, not JB being in the suitcase. So if FW thought it felt empty (no duvet) then where was the duvet at that time and when/how did it get back into the suitcase?

 

[OpenMind4U]

I think OM4U was talking about the duvet cover being/not being in the suitcase when FW moved it that morning, not JB being in the suitcase. So if FW thought it felt empty (no duvet) then where was the duvet at that time and when/how did it get back into the suitcase?

Thank you. Yes, I was talking about duvet not JB body being in suitcase.
Now, if DD said that duvets fibers were not on JB's body (and DD knows this case extremely well) then do you remember the talk about the brown cotton fibers from possibly garden gloves?? Maybe these fibers from canvas?!!! Either way, I think BOESP idea of CS is very interesting idea to consider.

It has been stated many times by LE, Kolar and other officials that we, public, doesn't know a lot of stuff. And whatever we THINK we know - is not true. So, I'm very much opened for any possible ideas.

So far we know only one thing for sure: without turning light in WC nobody would be able to see JB's body. And JR 'found' her before turning light. Means: he knew she's in WC before 1:00pm.


jmo