Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[midwest mama]

Thanks for the postings of the BW interview! It was so sad to watch. Now I remember why I was an IDI in the early years of the case!

I was surprised to hear Patsy make the comment about premeditation. And I was surprised by the amount of "negative" head shaking, when JR was making positive statements. hoh:

 

[questfortrue]

According to the Kolar book, the enhanced 911 tape from the aerospace unit in Southern California had the words of a young male saying: “What did you find?” Also the words of JR saying angrily, “We’re not talking to you.” And the words of PR, “Save me, Jesus, save me Jesus”. If the young male was the voice of BR, it struck me because of the type of question asked, not “what is going on? Or what is happening”, but rather, “what did you find?” Moreover, wouldn’t a response on the order of, “JB is missing” be more appropriate, than shutting this young male down? Just mho.

And then there is a spooky/prescient photo of a dictionary with a corner page folded which pointed to the word “incest.” We don’t know how long the dictionary was open, but it would be my theory that BR had looked up the word, JB was too young to use the dictionary for this purpose and PR and JR know what incest is. I am wondering if perhaps JB’s therapist called PR’s attention to a possible molestation situation and PR was discussing it with a family member, when the word was overheard by BR?

The ransom letter was the tattle about who was involved in the staging/and homicide. (I reference anyone to the noted linguist and handwriting expert Foster.) But, am I reading too much into the letter by hearing a decidedly derisive tone in this letter towards JR? And if so, why? Did PR blame him for some action (molestation) or inaction (not talking to BR about incest)? I’m new here; my first post and have an open mind towards others’ thoughts.

 

[wengr]

And then there is a spooky/prescient photo of a dictionary with a corner page folded which pointed to the word “incest.” We don’t know how long the dictionary was open, but it would be my theory that BR had looked up the word, JB was too young to use the dictionary for this purpose and PR and JR know what incest is. I am wondering if perhaps JB’s therapist called PR’s attention to a possible molestation situation and PR was discussing it with a family member, when the word was overheard by BR?

Welcome to the group. This issue of the dictionary is of particular interest to me. The scenario that you suggest is certainly possible, and it has been suggested to me before. But why would BR bend the page? And why would BR leave it open to the page? However, and this is all based on the dictionary being as reported, I find that it suggests something else to me. On the morning of the 26th, there were numerous people in the house and well aquainted with the R's. They saw first hand a "kidnapping" become a murder. I have no reason to believe that they did not have access to that book. I wonder if someone with knowledge or suspicion of prior improper sexual conduct bent that page corner in an attempt to make a statement while remaining anonymous?

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

:wagon: welcome questfortrue!

 

[questfortrue]

Another question I have, if BR had not confessed something to PR and/or JR, how would they know that BR did something to JBR and BR needed to be protected? I bring this up because there wasn’t purportedly evidence of the blow, not much blood, and the coroner and BPD were all surprised to see how great the head fracture.was. Unless people think BR rigged the garrote which would absolutely be evidence of a crime and that fact needed a cover up. So how did PR and JR know they should stage to protect BR? I would echo the statement on that controversial tape in which a young male says, “So what did you find?” If PR and JR knew BR had done this, how, what did they find? Hope I’m not redundant -being new here, perhaps I missed an “explanation or theory” of this.

 

[UKGuy]

Another question I have, if BR had not confessed something to PR and/or JR, how would they know that BR did something to JBR and BR needed to be protected? I bring this up because there wasn’t purportedly evidence of the blow, not much blood, and the coroner and BPD were all surprised to see how great the head fracture.was. Unless people think BR rigged the garrote which would absolutely be evidence of a crime and that fact needed a cover up. So how did PR and JR know they should stage to protect BR? I would echo the statement on that controversial tape in which a young male says, “So what did you find?” If PR and JR knew BR had done this, how, what did they find? Hope I’m not redundant -being new here, perhaps I missed an “explanation or theory” of this.

questfortrue,
It has been discussed before, inconclusively. Nobody knows how JonBenet's original injuries were communicated.

That they were and that there was staging is evidence that who ever is responsible, recognized leaving JonBenet as she was ran the risk of arrest and conviction.

In some JDI theories JR is faking a search as part of his staging.

In some BDI theories BR is referring to forensic evidence he or someone else left behind?

That he is talking at all, undermines the Ramsey version of events. It follows that BR is in collusion with his parents to fake being asleep and offer a false version of events.

So the million $ question is why? Since neither JR or PR need tell BR anything about JonBenet if ether or both are culpable, then it might be that as parents they have agreed to protect BR and have given him a script to follow.

The parents might only agree to place JonBenet's death to one side and stage a version of it, only if BDI?


.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Another question I have, if BR had not confessed something to PR and/or JR, how would they know that BR did something to JBR and BR needed to be protected? I bring this up because there wasn’t purportedly evidence of the blow, not much blood, and the coroner and BPD were all surprised to see how great the head fracture.was. Unless people think BR rigged the garrote which would absolutely be evidence of a crime and that fact needed a cover up. So how did PR and JR know they should stage to protect BR? I would echo the statement on that controversial tape in which a young male says, “So what did you find?” If PR and JR knew BR had done this, how, what did they find? Hope I’m not redundant -being new here, perhaps I missed an “explanation or theory” of this.

guestfortrue, I'll try to attend your questions based on MO.

First, 'what did you find?'. Let's assume that Burke has been just woke-up due to his Mom's scream and high pitch voices in the house. And by the time he reached first floor, he sees and heard his mother speaking/crying on the phone. Possibly, he heard reference to ransom note. In addition, he sees his father on 'his four', on the floor, reading some kind of pages of the note. This 'picture' is based on PR and JR testimony: PR calling 911 and JR is on the floor, reading RN. So, BR question 'what did you find?' would be logical to me. What is NOT logical are the following:

- the response by JR 'we're not talking to you!';
- BR is going back to his room and pretends to be sleeping. Because couple minutes later, when police arrived - Burke was already 'asleep' in his bed!;
- according to interviews, upon finding ransom note, NONE OF THESE three (PR, JR and BR) was frantically, urgently running around the house searching every room, every corner, under every bed, every basement rooms trying to FIND JB!!! The only room they searched - was JB bedroom;
- according to conversation with Burke by LE later on, the only thing he was concerned about is that scheduled trip has been cancelled.

Second, 'how would they know that BR did something to JBR and BR needed to be protected?'...IMO, if BDI with JR and PR 'staging' then JonBenet was found in comotose condition with rope on her neck. Why would they know it's Burke? Because:

- it's not the first time Burke had harmed JB. There is pretty ugly history of Burke's RAGE behavior (not much facts available on this subject due to the 'seal' of all his medical records - so, some elements of speculation are here);
- the items found on JB or near JB points to BR involvement, especially the rope and knife (again, mainly speculation here);
- BR could tell his parents that JB is sick and vomiting on the floor (speculation again!)

Bottom line, your first question can be easily answered...the second one, is much harder to explain and based on the 'BDI theory' with it's numerious components.

jmo

 

[otg]

Welcome to WS, questfortrue. Everyone here has their own thoughts/theories as to exactly what happened -- and what the different aspects of the evidence may mean. You’ll find disagreement on details even amongst those who agree on who is responsible for JonBenet’s death. OpenMind4U and UKGuy have both addressed the crux of the dilemma in knowing with certainty exactly what the information we have could mean.

I tend to think that only one person knew about the head blow until the coroner discovered it during the autopsy. There was no blood, no cuts, no scrapes, and no apparent bruising on her scalp, so the only way anyone would know about it would be if the person who caused the fracture confessed it to the others involved in the cover-up. The ligature strangulation was obvious and was assumed to be the only cause of death (IMO) until the skull fracture was discovered by the coroner. That would be the reason for altering the things that would be found by investigators.

The voices and background conversations have been discussed a great deal by most here and was actually the reason I first joined this forum. In fact, my first post here was to share work I had done on the 911 recording. If you’d like to read previous discussions on the 911 call (not to insinuate that the discussion is closed), you can read the following two threads devoted to this subject:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116144"]Who Has Heard Burke's Voice on The 911 Tape? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180444"]The lost recording.... ? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


Again, welcome. We all will be looking forward to some good discussions with you in the future.

 

[Negative green]

Another question I have, if BR had not confessed something to PR and/or JR, how would they know that BR did something to JBR and BR needed to be protected? I bring this up because there wasn’t purportedly evidence of the blow, not much blood, and the coroner and BPD were all surprised to see how great the head fracture.was. Unless people think BR rigged the garrote which would absolutely be evidence of a crime and that fact needed a cover up. So how did PR and JR know they should stage to protect BR? I would echo the statement on that controversial tape in which a young male says, “So what did you find?” If PR and JR knew BR had done this, how, what did they find? Hope I’m not redundant -being new here, perhaps I missed an “explanation or theory” of this.

I think they knew there was injury by impact on JonBenet, perhaps manifestation of brain injury synch as the following?

The presence of abnormal posturing indicates a severe medical emergency requiring immediate medical attention. Decerebrate and decorticate posturing are strongly associated with poor outcome in a variety of conditions. For example, near-drowning victims that display decerebrate or decorticate posturing have worse outcomes than those that do not.[3] Changes in the condition of the patient may cause him or her to alternate between different types of posturing.[4]wikapedia

Welcome to websleuths, we are both newbies.

 

[questfortrue]

Appreciate all your replies and evaluation. Thank you otg for bringing out yours and others questions regarding the timing of the garrote which I sense does matter alot. Either part of the original scene with JB or added later as a method of staging/homicide. But I did wonder about the redressing and cleansing of JB’s body in combination with the garrote. Would it have been more difficult with the garrote already applied, and make more sense if it was added after the cleaning and redressing of JB as the finishing staging/homicide?
Also, I didn’t know about BR’s prior incidences towards JB., and was trying to wrap my head around if the R’s didn’t find her with the garrote, how and why might they have connected this to BR. This was not just the mother of all RN’s, it was also a highly staged homicide. For me, the garrote staging and the paintbrush penetration point to darker ideas of sexual abuse and also indicate someone more organized and calculating in hiding what happened to JB, both in the homicide and the disguising of prior abuse. The three members of family, separately, had:
1) High emotional projection or dramatic training,
2) Emotionally flat affect,
3) And take over (carry on as normal) CEO expertise
(Amateur that I am, I know who struck me as the least emotional and most calculating of the three. ) mho
Thanks, Wenger, on your comments about the dictionary and the people roaming around the home. Because JB played with the daughter of one of them, and because she had had soiling accidents at their home, it made me wonder if this daughter of friends had heard JB comment about something, which showed more physical knowledge than an average 6 year old. Then the mother or father of JB’s friend might have wanted to leave a tip for the police. I think your suggestion carries weight because I don’t think anyone in the household would have been as likely to have “dogearred” this page.

 

[DeeDee249]

One thing to keep in mind about the garrote- regardless of when you believe it was applied- it WAS one of two causes of her death AND the ligature furrows prove she was ALIVE when it was tightened. So, IMO, it couldn't have been staging. Staging the crime scene implies postmortem rearranging and the garrote was definitely a part of the crime itself.

 

[Nom de plume]

One thing to keep in mind about the garrote- regardless of when you believe it was applied- it WAS one of two causes of her death AND the ligature furrows prove she was ALIVE when it was tightened. So, IMO, it couldn't have been staging. Staging the crime scene implies postmortem rearranging and the garrote was definitely a part of the crime itself.

Yes, she was alive when it was tightened, and it was COD, BUT....it could still be intended as staging IF he/she/they THOUGHT JB was already dead. Not that I necessarily believe they did think that, but I do see it as a possiblility.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Yes, she was alive when it was tightened, and it was COD, BUT....it could still be intended as staging IF he/she/they THOUGHT JB was already dead. Not that I necessarily believe they did think that, but I do see it as a possiblility.

...and something to think about based on what DeeDee said earlier:

One thing to keep in mind about the garrote- regardless of when you believe it was applied- it WAS one of two causes of her death AND the ligature furrows prove she was ALIVE when it was tightened. So, IMO, it couldn't have been staging. Staging the crime scene implies postmortem rearranging and the garrote was definitely a part of the crime itself.

We all should agree on the following:

- COD is strangulation by rope. DeeDee is absolutely correct on this one. And at this point, please DO NOT think about the term 'garotte' at all! Because it has been proven many times that wooden painbrash attached to the rope is NOT workable element in this strangulation. Plus, the way HOW JB's was strangled has nothing to do with 'garotting' method. So, let's keep this clean;
- the ligature furrows prove she was ALIVE when it was tightened. 100% agree with DeeDee!!!!!
- 'Staging' = postmortem rearranging. Agree again!

So, which part I don't agree with?

The final LOOK of strangulation (see autopsy photos with wooden stick attached to rope extention) is NOT = to actual strangulation!!! Means,

IF what we see is NOT = to what really happens THEN rope was used in 'staging' as well.

jmo

 

[wengr]

I would be interested to know how we know that the cod is without a doubt the cord which was cut off by Dr. Meyer?
It's a stretch obviously, but how do we know for sure that the cod was not a similar item (nintendo controller wire etc?), which was replaced shortly thereafter by the cord which we are all familiar with?

 

[OpenMind4U]

I would be interested to know how we know that the cod is without a doubt the cord which was cut off by Dr. Meyer?It's a stretch obviously, but how do we know for sure that the cod was not a similar item (nintendo controller wire etc?), which was replaced shortly thereafter by the cord which we are all familiar with?

Good question! We don't.

jmo

 

[MFFJM2]

Why isn't it possible that Patsy Ramsey struck at her husband when she found him assaulting Jon Benet, and unintentionally hit the little girl causing the head injury..? This would have given John Ramsey the opportunity to tell Patsy that she had killed the child, and would have given her the motivation to write the ransom note. He then realized the child was still alive and strangled her after Patsy went upstairs.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Why isn't it possible that Patsy Ramsey struck at her husband when she found him assaulting Jon Benet, and unintentionally hit the little girl causing the head injury..? This would have given John Ramsey the opportunity to tell Patsy that she had killed the child, and would have given her the motivation to write the ransom note. He then realized the child was still alive and strangled her after Patsy went upstairs.

MFFJM2, in THEORY alot of things are possible, except IDI of course!......But if above theory is true then you need to be ready for the following questions:

- How the head blow happens on the lower BACK of JB's head?
- Why good mother who fought for her child and AFTER 'unintentionally hit the little girl' didn't call 911 right away?
- Why Patsy needs to cover for her molester husband (participate in staging ans RN writing)?

jmo

 

[Nom de plume]

Why isn't it possible that Patsy Ramsey struck at her husband when she found him assaulting Jon Benet, and unintentionally hit the little girl causing the head injury..? This would have given John Ramsey the opportunity to tell Patsy that she had killed the child, and would have given her the motivation to write the ransom note. He then realized the child was still alive and strangled her after Patsy went upstairs.

:welcome6:

It is possible. It's also possible that due to misplaced anger PR intended to hit JB. Or as MM recently suggested, PR wasn't part of it at all.

 

[OpenMind4U]

:welcome6:

It is possible. It's also possible that due to misplaced anger PR intended to hit JB. Or as MM recently suggested, PR wasn't part of it at all.

Nom de plume, in another word you could believe that Patsy is innocent bystander, right?...well, it's matter of opinion of course...:waitasec:

By the way, if Patsy such an innocent grieving mother then why she didn't dedicated her remaining life and financial resources toward FINDING THE INTRUDER?!!!!...O, sorry, I forgot, Ramseys has offered 100k reward:banghead:

jmo

 

[Nom de plume]

Nom de plume, in another word you could believe that Patsy is innocent bystander, right?...well, it's matter of opinion of course...:waitasec:

By the way, if Patsy such an innocent grieving mother then why she didn't dedicated her remaining life and financial resources toward FINDING THE INTRUDER?!!!!...O, sorry, I forgot, Ramseys has offered 100k reward:banghead:

jmo

OM4U I have believed from day one that both John & Patsy were guilty as sin. (I've never been a believer in BDI. I have never for one second been IDI.) However, recently MidwestMama started a thread [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197956"]JDI - A Possible Prosecution? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame] which got me thinking there is a slight possibility Patsy might just have been not guilty of the murder, staging, or RN. I say not guilty instead of innocent because I believe she definitely knew JR was molesting JB, and could possibly have saved her life had she interviened as soon as she found out. While I disagree with MM about JR using a computer program to mimic PR's handwriting, I allow for the possibility that he did in fact write the RN and could possibly have intentionally set PR up to take the fall. I firmly believe that there is a lot more behind the molestation, murder, cover up, and refusal to prosecute than the public will ever know. I think it's totally possible that JR was willing to sacrifice his daughter and his (probably dying soon anyway) wife to save himself, and most likely some of his "friends."

I think PR kept quiet after the murder for a number of reasons. First of all I think there is a good possibility she was afraid of JR. If she really didn't have anything to do with it, but saw what he was capable of doing, I think she had good reason to fear him. It wouldn't have mattered if he was in jail or not. With his money he could still have had her "taken care of". I think she also knew all along that one day her cancer would return and that next time she wouldn't survive it. She was probably worried about what would happen to Burke if his father was a convicted child molester/killer and his mother was dead. There's also the lifestyle/money issue to consider. Patsy was a shallow woman. Appearances were everything to her, and she couldn't have lived with the shame of people knowing she was married to a child molester/killer. Plus I'm guessing she would rather have died than give up her high society lifestyle.

All that said, was Pasty involved in the cover up if not the crime itself? The evidence certainly seems to point that way. Is there the slightest chance that she wasn't? I'm trying to keep an "open mind" enough to see that yes, while it is unlikely, it's still possible.

JMO