Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[BOESP]

The autopsy says (paraphrasing) that the cause of death was ligature strangulation associated with blunt force trauma to the head.

 

[UKGuy]

...and something to think about based on what DeeDee said earlier:



We all should agree on the following:

- COD is strangulation by rope. DeeDee is absolutely correct on this one. And at this point, please DO NOT think about the term 'garotte' at all! Because it has been proven many times that wooden painbrash attached to the rope is NOT workable element in this strangulation. Plus, the way HOW JB's was strangled has nothing to do with 'garotting' method. So, let's keep this clean;
- the ligature furrows prove she was ALIVE when it was tightened. 100% agree with DeeDee!!!!!
- 'Staging' = postmortem rearranging. Agree again!

So, which part I don't agree with?

The final LOOK of strangulation (see autopsy photos with wooden stick attached to rope extention) is NOT = to actual strangulation!!! Means,

IF what we see is NOT = to what really happens THEN rope was used in 'staging' as well.

jmo

OpenMind4U,
I reckon the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, one that is intended to hide stuff from you.

I think the ligature is intended to mask a prior kneck constriction, possibly by a combination of hands and shirt collar during some kind of struggle.

I also think the head injury was a failed attempt at staging, i.e. offering a reason for JonBenet being incapacitated.

I think someone was restraining JonBenet by the neck whilst simultaneously molesting her. This led to JonBenet becoming unconcious.

Someone took the decision to murder JonBenet, i.e. by a head blow, then via ligature.

Now if you give it some thought, the R's decision to stage a crime-scene was their biggest mistake. Simply because an abductor who decided at the last moment not to kidnap JonBenet, but to molest and kill her would never bother to redress her in size-12's etc, fashion a ligature device to asphyxiate her.

Any bona-fide intruder would have left JonBenet naked from the waist down, lying either in her own bedroom or somewhere in the basement, patently asphyxiated by manual strangulation.

The R's decision to kill JonBenet could have been achieved by a hand over her mouth, but they selected the ligature, and added the paintbrush handle. Why, to obscure any prior injuries to JonBenet's neck. Similarly with the size-12's and longjohns, why, to obscure any prior sexual assault.

So the staging is consequence of the decision to enact an abduction scenario, since JonBenet is redressed to appear as she was when the R's put her to bed.

So although the ligature furrow tells us JonBenet was alive prior to it being applied, this does not mean it cannot represent staging, per se.

The above is what I call my minimalist theory since it offers explanations for most of JonBenet's injuries.

Another interpretation might assume some kind of rage attack on JonBenet culminating in the head injury.

It seems obvious that there was a sexual assault followed by some kind of physical assault. The main question is, were they linked, i.e. are they sequential in time, or is there a large time gap between the two events?

Recently the fecal element has been added to the mix, so I'm thinking could this have been what led to JonBenet being physically assaulted. Or do the fecal deposits represent some ritualistic aspect to JonBenet's death?

JonBenet's COD was a deficit of oxygen to her body. The injury to her head constrained the blood flowing in her head, and the ligature patently cut of the source of oxygen via her airways.

Summarising I think JonBenet was molested in one of the upstairs bedrooms, then she was physically assaulted leading to coma. The rest is largely staging , including aspects of her own bedroom.

So assuming the minimalist theory JonBenet's death appears to be a molestation that took a wrong turning somewhere. From the chronic abuse evidence we can assume the person assaulting JonBenet had done this before. So what might have been different on Christmas Night, where everything was fine up to and including the pineapple snack, its all happy families, then this is followed by abuse, physical assault then very quickly JonBenet's demise.

So due to the nature of her death I'm ruling Patsy out on this one. For me its either JR or BR?

.

 

[arielilane]

Why isn't it possible that Patsy Ramsey struck at her husband when she found him assaulting Jon Benet, and unintentionally hit the little girl causing the head injury..? This would have given John Ramsey the opportunity to tell Patsy that she had killed the child, and would have given her the motivation to write the ransom note. He then realized the child was still alive and strangled her after Patsy went upstairs.

Welcome MFJM2! In my opinion, your theory is very possible.

 

[midwest mama]

OpenMind4U,
I reckon the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, one that is intended to hide stuff from you.

I think the ligature is intended to mask a prior kneck constriction, possibly by a combination of hands and shirt collar during some kind of struggle.

I also think the head injury was a failed attempt at staging, i.e. offering a reason for JonBenet being incapacitated.

I think someone was restraining JonBenet by the neck whilst simultaneously molesting her. This led to JonBenet becoming unconcious.

Someone took the decision to murder JonBenet, i.e. by a head blow, then via ligature.

Now if you give it some thought, the R's decision to stage a crime-scene was their biggest mistake. Simply because an abductor who decided at the last moment not to kidnap JonBenet, but to molest and kill her would never bother to redress her in size-12's etc, fashion a ligature device to asphyxiate her.

Any bona-fide intruder would have left JonBenet naked from the waist down, lying either in her own bedroom or somewhere in the basement, patently asphyxiated by manual strangulation.

The R's decision to kill JonBenet could have been achieved by a hand over her mouth, but they selected the ligature, and added the paintbrush handle. Why, to obscure any prior injuries to JonBenet's neck. Similarly with the size-12's and longjohns, why, to obscure any prior sexual assault.

So the staging is consequence of the decision to enact an abduction scenario, since JonBenet is redressed to appear as she was when the R's put her to bed.

So although the ligature furrow tells us JonBenet was alive prior to it being applied, this does not mean it cannot represent staging, per se.

The above is what I call my minimalist theory since it offers explanations for most of JonBenet's injuries.

Another interpretation might assume some kind of rage attack on JonBenet culminating in the head injury.

It seems obvious that there was a sexual assault followed by some kind of physical assault. The main question is, were they linked, i.e. are they sequential in time, or is there a large time gap between the two events?

Recently the fecal element has been added to the mix, so I'm thinking could this have been what led to JonBenet being physically assaulted. Or do the fecal deposits represent some ritualistic aspect to JonBenet's death?

JonBenet's COD was a deficit of oxygen to her body. The injury to her head constrained the blood flowing in her head, and the ligature patently cut of the source of oxygen via her airways.

Summarising I think JonBenet was molested in one of the upstairs bedrooms, then she was physically assaulted leading to coma. The rest is largely staging , including aspects of her own bedroom.

So assuming the minimalist theory JonBenet's death appears to be a molestation that took a wrong turning somewhere. From the chronic abuse evidence we can assume the person assaulting JonBenet had done this before. So what might have been different on Christmas Night, where everything was fine up to and including the pineapple snack, its all happy families, then this is followed by abuse, physical assault then very quickly JonBenet's demise.

So due to the nature of her death I'm ruling Patsy out on this one. For me its either JR or BR?

.

I'm with you on this! Any rage involved in this death was as a result of JB's attempt to ward off her molester on this night. IT IS THE CHRONIC ABUSE that should point us to the real nature of this crime.

For those who do not agree there was chronic sexual abuse, I say BUNK!
The hymen of a 6 year old does not show "erosion" and the rear vaginal wall would not show 'chronic' assault from activities related to childhood play or even from typical childhood sexual exploration.

Those types of noted signs, along with a vaginal opening twice the size of a normal 6 year old girl can only be attributed to molestation. The type of molestation that would have caused JB pain, once and again.

I think the molestation was escalating by the perpetrator, becoming more painful with every event, and in attempting to fight back, she invited the tragic blow that became the beginning of the end.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm with you on this! Any rage involved in this death was as a result of JB's attempt to ward off her molester on this night. IT IS THE CHRONIC ABUSE that should point us to the real nature of this crime.

For those who do not agree there was chronic sexual abuse, I say BUNK!
The hymen of a 6 year old does not show "erosion" and the rear vaginal wall would not show 'chronic' assault from activities related to childhood play or even from typical childhood sexual exploration.

Those types of noted signs, along with a vaginal opening twice the size of a normal 6 year old girl can only be attributed to molestation. The type of molestation that would have caused JB pain, once and again.

I think the molestation was escalating by the perpetrator, becoming more painful with every event, and in attempting to fight back, she invited the tragic blow that became the beginning of the end.

midwest mama,
Yes I agree. The exact nature of the exchange between JonBenet and her abuser is difficult to envisage. Although I do not think JonBenet was moving away. As you suggest, due to the pain, I think she was being held, or constrained by her neck, in an attempt to prevent her from moving, the neck constraint was held for too long, resulting in coma.


JonBenet's death is a sexually motivated homicide, whether IDI or RDI.

Its the crime-scene staging that sidetracks people, whereas the focus should be on the molestation, that was the motivation that led to JonBenet's death.

Recognizing that the basement was probably used to dump forensic evidence, how about that Santa Suit, could it have originated upstairs, i.e. JonBenet received her special visit?

.

 

[midwest mama]

midwest mama,
Yes I agree. The exact nature of the exchange between JonBenet and her abuser is difficult to envisage. Although I do not think JonBenet was moving away. As you suggest, due to the pain, I think she was being held, or constrained by her neck, in an attempt to prevent her from moving, the neck constraint was held for too long, resulting in coma.


JonBenet's death is a sexually motivated homicide, whether IDI or RDI.

Its the crime-scene staging that sidetracks people, whereas the focus should be on the molestation, that was the motivation that led to JonBenet's death.

Recognizing that the basement was probably used to dump forensic evidence, how about that Santa Suit, could it have originated upstairs, i.e. JonBenet received her special visit?

.

So right. Yes, very possible, perhaps probable, the Santa suit was involved. There is too much connected to Christmas in this case NOT to think it might be involved - especially since it was taken into evidence.

There was a lot of Christmas decor/stuff around the Ramsey house, but for some reason the suit was collected by police. Then they questioned Patsy about it. Why, if not because they thought there was a connection?

Just for reference, here's interview info from Patsy:
Here it PATSY RAMSEY: I can't think of any.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Did you have any Santa suits?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I had Santas. I did have a
9 Santa suit. I stuffed the Santa sometimes.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Where was that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That should have been back in
12 the Christmas room back, you know, in the shower back
13 in there.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: If you walked past the laundry
15 room, the shower to the storage room is at the end of
16 that hallway, the room it would be in.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right there would be kind of a
18 beard, but I don't know it was made out of cotton. It
19 was kind of more like synthetic.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: That was -- the Santa suit was
21 never in the window sill.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge
also sounds like red fibers were found on window sill

 

[Nom de plume]

So right. Yes, very possible, perhaps probable, the Santa suit was involved. There is too much connected to Christmas in this case NOT to think it might be involved - especially since it was taken into evidence.

There was a lot of Christmas decor/stuff around the Ramsey house, but for some reason the suit was collected by police. Then they questioned Patsy about it. Why, if not because they thought there was a connection?

Just for reference, here's interview info from Patsy:
Here it PATSY RAMSEY: I can't think of any.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Did you have any Santa suits?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I had Santas. I did have a
9 Santa suit. I stuffed the Santa sometimes.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Where was that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That should have been back in
12 the Christmas room back, you know, in the shower back
13 in there.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: If you walked past the laundry
15 room, the shower to the storage room is at the end of
16 that hallway, the room it would be in.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right there would be kind of a
18 beard, but I don't know it was made out of cotton. It
19 was kind of more like synthetic.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: That was -- the Santa suit was
21 never in the window sill.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge
also sounds like red fibers were found on window sill

I had forgotten the santa suit was taken into evidence. Hmmm...:waitasec: I've always thought JR was the "secret Santa".

There sure are a lot of red items and fibers in this case.
-JB's red turtle neck
-PR's red sweater
-JB's red pantsuit
-red Santa suit
-PR's red/black jacket (IIRC)

Granted, it was Christmas, but all the red just makes it more confusing as to what is relevant and what isn't.

 

[UKGuy]

So right. Yes, very possible, perhaps probable, the Santa suit was involved. There is too much connected to Christmas in this case NOT to think it might be involved - especially since it was taken into evidence.

There was a lot of Christmas decor/stuff around the Ramsey house, but for some reason the suit was collected by police. Then they questioned Patsy about it. Why, if not because they thought there was a connection?

Just for reference, here's interview info from Patsy:
Here it PATSY RAMSEY: I can't think of any.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Did you have any Santa suits?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I had Santas. I did have a
9 Santa suit. I stuffed the Santa sometimes.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Where was that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That should have been back in
12 the Christmas room back, you know, in the shower back
13 in there.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: If you walked past the laundry
15 room, the shower to the storage room is at the end of
16 that hallway, the room it would be in.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right there would be kind of a
18 beard, but I don't know it was made out of cotton. It
19 was kind of more like synthetic.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: That was -- the Santa suit was
21 never in the window sill.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge
also sounds like red fibers were found on window sill

midwest mama,
You never know what to believe when PR answers.

As you point out the Santa Suit was taken into evidence, so BPD thought it relevant.

On its own its just another item, but coupled with JonBenet's claim that she was expecting a Special Santa Visit, then it takes on a significance that neither fact has individually.

Consider these events as a sequence:

23rd December 1996: Christmas Party JonBenet is upset. 911 call made, and Susan Stine turns responding officer away.

24th December 1996: Barbara Kostanick stated -

The day before Christmas, JonBenét was at our house playing with Megan. The kids were talking about Santa, getting all excited. I asked JonBenét if she had visited Santa Claus yet. She said, “Oh, Santa was at our Christmas party the other night.” Megan had seen Santa at the Pearl Street Mall, so we talked about that.

Then JonBenét said, “Santa Claus promised that he would make a secret visit after Christmas.”
I thought she was confused. “Christmas is tonight,” I told her. “And Santa will be coming tonight.”
“No, no,” JonBenét insisted. “He said this would be after Christmas. And it’s a secret.”

25th December 1996: JonBenet is visited by someone after Christmas when she was killed!

If you add in that the Santa Suit was found in the basement then all the previous do seem to suggest that it was Santa that molested JonBenet 12/25/1996.

Then we have the partially opened Christmas Gifts, along with what appears to be a new, just opened, Barbie Doll, accompanied by a bloodstained Pink Barbie Gown.

So if you add all that together. How about JonBenet has her Secret Santa Visit, is given the Barbie Doll and in return Santa wants to molest JonBenet?

Anyone think I am just conflating evidence, or does this theory seem credible?


.

 

[dodie20]

midwest mama,
You never know what to believe when PR answers.

As you point out the Santa Suit was taken into evidence, so BPD thought it relevant.

On its own its just another item, but coupled with JonBenet's claim that she was expecting a Special Santa Visit, then it takes on a significance that neither fact has individually.

Consider these events as a sequence:

23rd December 1996: Christmas Party JonBenet is upset. 911 call made, and Susan Stine turns responding officer away.

24th December 1996: Barbara Kostanick stated -

25th December 1996: JonBenet is visited by someone after Christmas when she was killed!

If you add in that the Santa Suit was found in the basement then all the previous do seem to suggest that it was Santa that molested JonBenet 12/25/1996.

Then we have the partially opened Christmas Gifts, along with what appears to be a new, just opened, Barbie Doll, accompanied by a bloodstained Pink Barbie Gown.

So if you add all that together. How about JonBenet has her Secret Santa Visit, is given the Barbie Doll and in return Santa wants to molest JonBenet?

Anyone think I am just conflating evidence, or does this theory seem credible?


.

based on this chain of evidence, the theory seems credible, but this is just too sick. We know that R evidence is everywhere, so which one of them posed as Santa? This has a John Wayne Gacey vibe, and honestly, considering the time of night and the trip the next day, I just don't see it. If something like this did happen, it still points to an R, because that santa suit belonged in that house, right along with everything else. Really though, I don't like this theory, because it adds a level of premeditation and trickery that seems unnecessary and goes beyond evil.

 

[UKGuy]

based on this chain of evidence, the theory seems credible, but this is just too sick. We know that R evidence is everywhere, so which one of them posed as Santa? This has a John Wayne Gacey vibe, and honestly, considering the time of night and the trip the next day, I just don't see it. If something like this did happen, it still points to an R, because that santa suit belonged in that house, right along with everything else. Really though, I don't like this theory, because it adds a level of premeditation and trickery that seems unnecessary and goes beyond evil.

dodie20,
Well there were some sick puppies in that house, the wine-cellar staging is evidence of that.

I actually like the theory but do not really have the evidence to back it up. That is, no Santa Suit fibers have been found on JonBenet, or in her bedroom. So I guess I'll pigeon-hole this one.


.

 

[Nom de plume]

based on this chain of evidence, the theory seems credible, but this is just too sick. We know that R evidence is everywhere, so which one of them posed as Santa? This has a John Wayne Gacey vibe, and honestly, considering the time of night and the trip the next day, I just don't see it. If something like this did happen, it still points to an R, because that santa suit belonged in that house, right along with everything else. Really though, I don't like this theory, because it adds a level of premeditation and trickery that seems unnecessary and goes beyond evil.

Dodie what is there about JB's molestation or murder that ISN'T evil? What ever sick person was molesting her was certainly "premeditating" it each time. I think UK is onto something here. I've always thought JR was the one molesting her, and that he was the "secret Santa".

BR confessed to opening the gifts, so I don't see that as fitting into the scenario. I would also guess that the doll was given to her that morning since PR said she ordered it for her. I do however see JR being sick enough to think that dressing up as Santa might "lessen" the chance of JB protesting the molestation so much. Also, there could have been another gift that was removed from the house along with the tape, cord, etc. I also suspect the metal scraping concrete sound could have been the man hole cover in the street, or maybe the lid on the dumpster hitting a concrete wall.

JMO

 

[UKGuy]

Dodie what is there about JB's molestation or murder that ISN'T evil? What ever sick person was molesting her was certainly "premeditating" it each time. I think UK is onto something here. I've always thought JR was the one molesting her, and that he was the "secret Santa".

BR confessed to opening the gifts, so I don't see that as fitting into the scenario. I would also guess that the doll was given to her that morning since PR said she ordered it for her. I do however see JR being sick enough to think that dressing up as Santa might "lessen" the chance of JB protesting the molestation so much. Also, there could have been another gift that was removed from the house along with the tape, cord, etc. I also suspect the metal scraping concrete sound could have been the man hole cover in the street, or maybe the lid on the dumpster hitting a concrete wall.

JMO

Nom de plume,
If you are referring to the Barbie Doll here, then the one given by Patsy was by a different manufacturer, e.g. American Girl Doll.

.

 

[dodie20]

Dodie what is there about JB's molestation or murder that ISN'T evil? What ever sick person was molesting her was certainly "premeditating" it each time. I think UK is onto something here. I've always thought JR was the one molesting her, and that he was the "secret Santa".

BR confessed to opening the gifts, so I don't see that as fitting into the scenario. I would also guess that the doll was given to her that morning since PR said she ordered it for her. I do however see JR being sick enough to think that dressing up as Santa might "lessen" the chance of JB protesting the molestation so much. Also, there could have been another gift that was removed from the house along with the tape, cord, etc. I also suspect the metal scraping concrete sound could have been the man hole cover in the street, or maybe the lid on the dumpster hitting a concrete wall.

JMO

Like you, I believe the previous molestation was premeditated each time, but unless the molestor dressed in disguise every time, I wouldn't think he would switch MOs and try to hide his identity, this one time. I don't know anything about the mind of a pedophile. Is it common for one to show his identity but at other times hide it? But, if the killer was really evil, part of the ' fun' might have been watching JB's face go from excitement to horror, once she realized he wasn't santa claus? A really evil mind might have plotted the horrible santa claus in an effort to erase what little bit of innocence JB had left..right along with the garotte and rape. I just don't know.

 

[midwest mama]

dodie20,
Well there were some sick puppies in that house, the wine-cellar staging is evidence of that.

I actually like the theory but do not really have the evidence to back it up. That is, no Santa Suit fibers have been found on JonBenet, or in her bedroom. So I guess I'll pigeon-hole this one.


.

UKGuy - Not so quick - remember that the BPD has kept some info redacted from the public. And Michael Kane stated that the public does not know all the truth.

Nom de plume - The doll given to JB on Christmas morning, special ordered for her was a My Twinn doll. Nedra gave JB an American Girl doll prior to Christmas on one of her visits - a Molly doll. There was said to be a Barbie Doll found near where JB's body was found in the wine cellar. If you google "doll photos ramsey basement" (images) you will see a blurry photo showing what KoldKase did some reference to in some of her posts as possibly being the Holiday Barbie from that year.

 

[midwest mama]

The following is an essay that was posted recently on DocG's site:
www.solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com
Please note, this WAS NOT written by him, but it is a very good article about molestation, and the facts should not be ignored.
-----------
Child Sexual Abuse -- Some Facts and Figures
According to the essay, "Child Sexual Abuse. Challenges Facing Child Protection and Mental Health Professionals," by David Finkelhor*, the majority of victims are female, and roughly 90% of offenders are male:

The peak age of vulnerability for sexual abuse is between seven and 13, but about 20% of cases involve even younger children. . .
About half the victimization of girls occurs within the family. For boys only 10% to 20% occurs in the family. . .
We also see a few cases of young children, themselves 5 through 10 years old, who victimize their peers. In most instances, these are victims of sexual abuse, who are repeating against others the acts hat have been perpetrated on them . . .
Female perpetrators are rare, but of some clinical interest, so they constitute a fourth group of importance. They are a diverse group that include some very isolated mothers, some adolescent girls under pressure to acquire sexual experience, and some women manipulated into joining the abusive activities of their boyfriend. . .
Interestingly, social and economic deprivation are not primary risk factors. Sexual abuse of children appears to be much less concentrated among children of disadvantaged social classes than other forms of child maltreatment. But sexual abuse in higher social classes is often overlooked because professionals assume it is rare. . .
The most important thing that psychologists, therapists and educators can do is to improve their ability to identify sexual abuse. But because of the shame, fear , and secrecy, most sexual abuse is still not diagnosed. When it is diagnosed, most often (two-thirds of the time) it is as a result of the explicit disclosure by a child. The child will mention the abuse to a parent, relative, friend, physician or school official, or the child will ask questions, mention activities or have sexual knowledge that will clearly signal the child’ s involvement. . .
There are certain behaviors that more than others can signal the presence of sexual abuse, but they are not specific to it. The primary one of these is sexualized behavior. . . In older children, it can mean promiscuous sexual behavior or unusually eroticized ways of dressing and acting. . .
As I said before, perpetrators are sometimes very unlikely individuals, with good reputations and a seemingly positive relationship with the suspected victim. The professional may find the accused person very likable and charming. Having a positive relationship with the child is not at all inconsistent with the possibility of sexual abuse.

*In the book, Childhood and Trauma, 1997, 1999. David Finkelhor is a Professor of Sociology and Director of the Family Research Laboratory and the Family Violence Research Program at the University of New Hampshire, USA.
-------------

Bolds, italics and underlines above by me.

What really struck me in this article most of all is the "seemingly positive relationship" with the suspected victim. JB was known to be Daddy's girl.

It was noticed that the months closer to her death, she was in rebellion against Patsy. Could she have been angry with her mother for not protecting her enough from the possible "male family members" who could have been responsible for her chronic abuse?

 

[OpenMind4U]

This thread is about 'who molested JonBenet?'. I'm sure everyone on this forum has been trying to find the answer to this question many times over. And sometimes our answers vary depends on what we belive at the moment. And we all should agree that the right answer to this question shoul solve this case wide open.

Now, I'm begging you to get away from your favorite theory or belives just for a couple minutes and stay with me. If you're willing to do so then please contunue reading this post with the TRUE open mind.

1. Interogation Method.

Interogation is the psychological art session. Detectives spends hundreds of hours in training to obtain the knowledge on how properly interogate the suspect. Interogation is NOT Q/A session! It's 'mind game' based on suspect's behavior. It's a chest game so to speak. Interogator has the list of questions which put the suspect in 'relax' mode, letting him/her starts speak freely without preasure, getting him/her in comfort zone.

And as soon as the suspect is relaxed and in the process of answering the 'easy', not 'dangerous' to him/her questions - interogator FIRES the important 'marker' question to catch the suspect 'off guard'. We saw how these methods works many times in fiction movies and/or true crime documentaries. So, I'm not going to reveal any secrets here.

What interogator is looking for (from the behavior point of view)?
- how LONG the response for 'marker' versa 'relax' questions? (when we relaxed, we have tendancy to talk and talk. Our words creating longer sentences; when we scared/alert - our answers are short, sentences have intervals between words);
- any changes in tone of voice and body language between 'marker' and 'relax' questions? (do you know the saying: 'the best defense is offense'?...so when 'marker' makes you uncomfortable, you need to 'protect' yourself...means, you're getting offensive);
- how suspect react to element of surprize? (is it genuine or fake? when you're trully surprized, at the beginning, you would show the short sentence response...but as soon as the element of 'surprized' is gone - YOU will start asking questions to obtain explanation or clarification. Your questions/answers will not be offensive. If you LIE - you would compose yourself and think what to say next and how to say it...you'll be kind of 'gone' for awaile....your next questions/answers will be always short and offensive).

Of course, to properly read the body language you would need to be in room with the suspect or watch him /her on multi-angle TV monitors. And what I stated above are the only tiny drops from the huge bucket of interogation methods. Why I'm wasting your time?

2. Interogation of Patsy Ramsey (molestation 'marker')

I'm asking you to read the full interogation here:
http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

...but for the purpose of saving space, I'll 'expose' only two parts from this interogation. And I'm not going to highlight anything...I simply let you be with interogators and see yourself which questions are 'markers' and which answers are lies. And maybe today you'll be able to get closer to 'who molested JonBenet' answer.

25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are
1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal
2 intrusion on JonBenet?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
4 Prior to the night she was killed?
5 TOM HANEY: Correct.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.
9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.
11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.
13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.
15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have
16 been violated like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This
18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.
19 TOM HANEY: Take a minute, if you
20 would, I mean this seems -- you know, you didn't
21 know that before right now, the 25th, at 2:32?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I absolutely
23 did not.
24 TOM HANEY: Okay. Does--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: And I would like to
1 see where it says that and who reported that.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Do you have that?
4 TOM HANEY: Well, I don't have it
5 with us, no. As you can imagine, there is a lot
6 of material, and we surely didn't bring all the
7 photos, but--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, can you find
9 that?
10 TOM HANEY: Yeah. Because I think
11 it's pretty significant?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's damn
13 significant. You know, I am shocked.
..............................
20 TOM HANEY: We talked yesterday or
21 the day before too about I told you of a
22 personal experience of being a policeman, people
23 tend to lie to me and you told me a few minutes
24 ago that you're telling me everything that you
25 know about.
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That's correct.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. And that's all
3 been truthful?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, sir.
5 TOM HANEY: And I told you then
6 that I wouldn't lie to you. And I don't have
7 any reason to lie to you.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Great.
9 TOM HANEY: And I didn't lie to you
10 about the information, this medical information
11 that I told you about.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, this is very
13 hurtful.
14 TOM HANEY: I know that. And if I
15 told you right now that we have in the process
16 of being examined trace evidence that appears to
17 link you to the death of JonBenet, what would
18 you tell me?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: That's totally
20 incredible. (INAUDIBLE).
21 TOM HANEY: How is it impossible?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I did not kill my
23 child. I didn't have a thing to do with it.
24 TOM HANEY: And I am not talking,
25 you know, somebody's guess or some rumor or some
1 story.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't care what
3 you're talking about.
4 TOM HANEY: I am talking about
5 scientific evidence.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't give a damn
7 how scientific it is, go back to the damn
8 drawing board. I didn't do it. John Ramsey
9 didn't do it and we didn't have a clue of
10 anybody who did do it. So we all got to be
11 working together from this day forward to try to
12 find out who the hell did it.
13 I mean, I appreciate being here. I
14 appreciate it, it's very hard to be here. It is
15 a damn sight harder to be sitting at home in
16 Atlanta, Georgia wondering every second of every
17 day what you guys are doing out here, you know;
18 have you found anything, are we any closer, is
19 the guy out here watching my house.
20 You know, it's -- my life has been
21 hell from that day forward. And I want nothing
22 more than to find out who is responsible for
23 this. Okay. I mean, I want to work with you,
24 not against you. Okay.
25 This child was the most precious
1 thing in my life, and I can't stand the thought
2 thinking somebody's out there walking on the
3 street, God knows what, molest some other child.
4 Quit screwing around asking me things that are
5 ridiculous and let's find the person, let's end
6 that this.
7 (INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION HAD OFF THE
8 RECORD.)

Hope it helps.......

 

[OpenMind4U]

Let's continue with another Interogation, for the same subject 'marker'.
I used again some parts without BBM but please take time, read full interogation and pay attention to INTEROGATOR's style this time (Lou Smith versa Mike Kane) and how it defers from Patsy's interogation:
http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

In addition, I have surprize for you.... I imbedded some interesting sentence which has nothing to do with molestation (or maybe it DOES???)...hope you'll found it ....

3. Intoregation of John Ramsey (molestation 'marker')

2 MIKE KANE: The autopsy report, have you
3 seen it?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
5 MIKE KANE: You haven't seen it?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I have not. I can't look at
7 that.
8 MIKE KANE: Okay. Have you discussed in general
9 what's in there, in general?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Very little. It's hard to discuss
11 with her accidentally (INAUDIBLE).
12 MIKE KANE: What would that be?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: That there was her skull
14 fracture; that there were abrasions in her pubic
15 area; two of her organs were swollen which
16 indicated a slow death.
17 MIKE KANE: Did you do your own investigation
18 into this? Did you have any experts look into
19 those -- like you said there were bruises in the
20 pubic area?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if we did.
22 MIKE KANE: I mean here, now?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: I know. No, not to my knowledge.
24 MIKE KANE: I'll bring another aspect about
25 the (INAUDIBLE) fragments.
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think we've had
2 pathologists look into the report, but I don't
3 know where or what they said.
4 MIKE KANE: You never received the report
5 then?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
7 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)
8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
9 MIKE KANE: How about Mrs. Ramsey?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
11 MIKE KANE: What do you understand about
12 that trauma, vaginal trauma?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: It's something I don't like
14 to think about. I don't understand or read
15 anything about it, because there are certain facts
16 that I just can't bear to know.
17 MIKE KANE: There has been some discussions
18 that I've heard since I've gotten involved in the
19 case that perhaps that it was prior vaginal
20 trauma. Now, I'm not talking sex assault or sex
21 abuse or some indications at least, that there may
22 have been something prior.
23 Is there anything that you can think of that would
24 account for that? Any opportunities she would have
25 had to be alone with somebody or even something
1 innocently that might account for that?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, certainly not that
3 we're aware of. I mean the kids stay with
4 babysitters from time to time. Susan Savage was a
5 babysitter, a family babysitter that the kids
6 would stay with. They stayed with her for a few
7 other.
8 Patsy's mother did a lot. She would come out and
9 stay with the kids if were going to be gone for a
10 while. There was a young college, well she's in
11 college, but she's college-aged girl who sat for
12 us several years before that if we needed her to.
13 (INAUDIBLE) watch the kids.
14 I remember Patsy when she went down to the
15 (INAUDIBLE). But it had been regular at that time.
16 I don't think I can remember.
17 MIKE KANE: Were there any short-term
18 babysitters like if you go out for the evening?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well even Susan used to
20 do that a lot.
21 MIKE KANE: Okay.
22 JOHN RAMSEY: This other girl did before
23 that. Susan pretty much lived for us when Patsy
24 had cancer that year. She did live with us. She
25 was there from dawn till dusk for literally for
1 the whole year. (INAUDIBLE).
2 MIKE KANE: Any other family members sit
3 with than your mother-in-law?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Don Paugh stayed for
5 a few times, cause he was their grandfather. Or
6 even they would go to his place. He had an
7 apartment over on Pearl Street. Not often or for
8 very long. You know, for an hour or two here.
9 MIKE KANE: And overnights?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, there might have been
11 one or two. If we were going to be out late and we
12 didn't' want to wake the kids up when they come
13 home.
14 MIKE KANE: What do they think about them?
15 You know there are certain babysitters you say,
16 (INAUDIBLE) you can't wait, and another on they
17 say they don't want hear about. Are they any?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I can recall.
19 MIKE KANE: Did they enjoy staying with their
20 grandfather?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
22 MIKE KANE: And with Susan.
23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. As I recall, I think
24 probably the babysitter they weren't going to get
25 to go (INAUDIBLE). They only like to go and sleep.
1 So babysitters in general might (INAUDIBLE) a
2 particularly welcome sight.
3 LOU SMIT: How about neighbors, John? Any
4 of your neighbors (INAUDIBLE)?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: That babysat?
6 LOU SMIT: I don't think so. I don't think
7 anyone?
8 MIKE KANE: Was there ever, I've never
9 seen her medical records but I heard that you
10 talked about comments about I noticed she had
11 (INAUDIBLE) at certain times. Was there ever
12 treatment that you or Mrs. Ramsey had to do at
13 home for that?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I did. I don't know.
15 MIKE KANE: Any antibiotic treatment or anything?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: If there was, that was kind of
17 between Patsy and her, you know.
.........................................
13 BRYAN MORGAN: As the record now
14 stands your office has never asked us for
15 anything that we have not given. I am pretty
16 clear on that.
17 LOU SMIT: And I have no doubt
18 about that.
19 BRYAN MORGAN: I know you have got
20 some phone records, I know we pulled all those
21 together. I don't think this is going to be a
22 problem. But we are going to take some time to
23 think about some islands of privacy that I think
24 you're entitled to have to continue your healing
25 process, and I am very serious about that. So
1 we will answer that in my view before the week's
2 out.
..................................
4 MIKE KANE: Did you know anything
5 about JonBenet having dumbbells in her room?
6 Did she work out or anything like that?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.
8 How big were they? Were they -- Burke might
9 have had some, Patsy had some, she was
10 recovering from cancer, she used to ride her
11 bicycle and work these dumbbells. They were
12 usually -- they usually were in the TV room. I
13 am not sure they were there when she was works
14 out, but those were the dumbbells that we had
15 around.

Enjoy reading!...my grand-father used to say: 'Repetition is Mother of Learning'.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy - Not so quick - remember that the BPD has kept some info redacted from the public. And Michael Kane stated that the public does not know all the truth.

Nom de plume - The doll given to JB on Christmas morning, special ordered for her was a My Twinn doll. Nedra gave JB an American Girl doll prior to Christmas on one of her visits - a Molly doll. There was said to be a Barbie Doll found near where JB's body was found in the wine cellar. If you google "doll photos ramsey basement" (images) you will see a blurry photo showing what KoldKase did some reference to in some of her posts as possibly being the Holiday Barbie from that year.

midwest mama,
Thanks for the correction on the doll. The reason I like the Santa Visit theory is that it is JonBenet herself who provides the evidence.

Also a visit by Santa might not require the Santa Suit, that is our embellishment. JonBenet's gifts could have simply been left in her bedroom or some other room, with her abuser hinting to JonBenet has Santa visited, say JAR's bedroom, whilst we were at the White's?

The Santa Visit also explains away the Barbie Doll found lying on the floor next to JonBenet, in the wine-cellar.

To date no explanation has ever been offered for it being in the wine-cellar, particularly opened.

We do not even know where it came from, who purchased it and why?

I simply see the events from 12/23/1996 through to 12/25/1996 being connected by these items and the death of JonBenet.

That is JonBenet is upset at the Christmas Party, by the following day someone has promised JonBenet a Special Santa Visit after Christmas. On the last hour of Christmas Day JonBenet does indeed receive a Special Visit, one that ends with her death.

As I mention in another thread what made Christmas special was this was likely the last opportunity prior to flying off on vacation, that JonBenet's abuser would have to molest her.

It might even be that on 12/23/1996 when JonBenet was upset, and not feeling pretty that JonBenet is undergoing trauma from the night before, and it is this she relates to those around her? Since her chronic abuse was dated back to this period.

Another aspect to the Santa Visit theory is that it offers explanations for the Means, or method of assault, Opportunity and Motive.

Opportunity: Its vacation time and JonBenet will be in another location the following day.

Motive: To engage in the molestation of JonBenet.

Means: Digital penetration, in JonBenet's bedroom.

Modus Operandi: Sweet talk JonBenet with assurances regarding a special visit from Santa, including another doll, one that will match with her Pink Barbie Nightgown.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Let's continue with another Interogation, for the same subject 'marker'.
I used again some parts without BBM but please take time, read full interogation and pay attention to INTEROGATOR's style this time (Lou Smith versa Mike Kane) and how it defers from Patsy's interogation:
http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

In addition, I have surprize for you.... I imbedded some interesting sentence which has nothing to do with molestation (or maybe it DOES???)...hope you'll found it ....

3. Intoregation of John Ramsey (molestation 'marker')



Enjoy reading!...my grand-father used to say: 'Repetition is Mother of Learning'.

OpenMind4U,

MIKE KANE: Any other family members sit
3 with than your mother-in-law?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Don Paugh stayed for
5 a few times, cause he was their grandfather. Or
6 even they would go to his place. He had an
7 apartment over on Pearl Street. Not often or for
8 very long. You know, for an hour or two here.
9 MIKE KANE: And overnights?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, there might have been
11 one or two. If we were going to be out late and we
12 didn't' want to wake the kids up when they come
13 home.

4 MIKE KANE: Did you know anything
5 about JonBenet having dumbbells in her room?
6 Did she work out or anything like that?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.
8 How big were they? Were they -- Burke might
9 have had some, Patsy had some, she was
10 recovering from cancer, she used to ride her
11 bicycle and work these dumbbells. They were
12 usually -- they usually were in the TV room. I
13 am not sure they were there when she was works
14 out, but those were the dumbbells that we had
15 around.

So where was JonBenet sleeping on the 20th, 21st, 22nd, and 23rd of December 1996, did she sleep in her own bed on all four nights. Did Patsy tell the truth when she said JonBenet shared BR's bedroom, or was she somewhere else?

And of course the dumbbells could be what caused her head injury, otg, take note.


.

 

[otg]

And of course the dumbbells could be what caused her head injury, otg, take note.

.

There are many types and shapes of dumbbells. Anyone have any idea about the ones that were in the R household? I believe some dumbbells would fit the bill -- and at least this didn't come out of thin air (like the crow bar :giggle.