Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[otg]

Excellent points about how the interrogation process works, OpenMind4U, and also about how it's not just what answer is given -- but the way it's given and what else is said in the answer. I don't know if the people doing the interrogations with the R's were that much trained in how to conduct one (we can hope). But as you probably know, there are people who are trained and specialize in exactly that. I posted something last year about one such group, and I'll link it here if anyone is interested in knowing more about it (I checked, and all the links still work.):

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8562695#post8562695"]Problems with the DA - Page 3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[OpenMind4U]

Excellent points about how the interrogation process works, OpenMind4U, and also about how it's not just what answer is given -- but the way it's given and what else is said in the answer. I don't know if the people doing the interrogations with the R's were that much trained in how to conduct one (we can hope). But as you probably know, there are people who are trained and specialize in exactly that. I posted something last year about one such group, and I'll link it here if anyone is interested in knowing more about it (I checked, and all the links still work.):

Problems with the DA - Page 3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thank you otg! But what about my surprize??!!! NOBODY find it yet...:what:

I probably read and re-read these 'interviews' dozen times. And everytime, I find something 'new' to which I didn't pay attention before. Yesterday was this kind of 'WOW' moment....but nobody catched it yet to say 'wow' with me.....

And yes, I do remember your post in regards of some cold case...something was about the old 'ticket'...and with brilliant interogation - the case was solved. Thank you for sharing and reminding us about!!!! You're a sweetheart!

jmo

 

[midwest mama]

Let's continue with another Interogation, for the same subject 'marker'.
I used again some parts without BBM but please take time, read full interogation and pay attention to INTEROGATOR's style this time (Lou Smith versa Mike Kane) and how it defers from Patsy's interogation:
http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

In addition, I have surprize for you.... I imbedded some interesting sentence which has nothing to do with molestation (or maybe it DOES???)...hope you'll found it ....

3. Intoregation of John Ramsey (molestation 'marker')



Enjoy reading!...my grand-father used to say: 'Repetition is Mother of Learning'.

I read the portion of the statement you posted, and wonder if your sentence has anything to do with the "accidentally" line?? Otherwise, you sure have hidden your surprise statement line well from me!

I also have this question: The date of the interrogation is June 1998? Or am I getting that wrong? John Ramsey said when questioned that he had not seen the autopsy report.

But in PMPT, pg 485, it states that Bryan Morgan, one of the attorneys, is now going over the autopsy report, just after is was released, with John, and John breaks down emotionally. The first release of the autopsy report, probably with some information redacted was Feb. 14, 1997. I guess I must not have my dates straight on when John saw the first released information, because I assumed PMPT was referring to the first public release date of Feb 1997.

Do you have any comments/knowledge about the dates? Otherwise, if John had been shown the autopsy report by Morgan, had a breakdown over what he saw, in 1997, then why would he, in June 1998, state he had not seen the report?

 

[dodie20]

Thank you otg! But what about my surprize??!!! NOBODY find it yet...:what:

I probably read and re-read these 'interviews' dozen times. And everytime, I find something 'new' to which I didn't pay attention before. Yesterday was this kind of 'WOW' moment....but nobody catched it yet to say 'wow' with me.....

And yes, I do remember your post in regards of some cold case...something was about the old 'ticket'...and with brilliant interogation - the case was solved. Thank you for sharing and reminding us about!!!! You're a sweetheart!

jmo

This interview was chock full of information. Were you surprised about the grandfather babysitting or the dumbbells? I, personally was a little surprised at what JR had to say about JB, dying a slow death. I wouldn't think he would know such a thing. Did an officer tell him? Also, the mention of the phone records was intriguing! I wonder what happened with the follow up. Also, the part where he says, 'her accidentally' kind of leaves us hanging, because of the inaudible. Is there an audio of this interview?

 

[Darlene733510]

OpenMind4U - I noticed that they said they had gotten phone records together, and then they mentioned islands of privacy so they could continue healing! What the heck is all this about? I thought they did not get any phone records. Why the island of privacy? Could it be JR was calling a woman and PR not aware of it?

 

[otg]

Thank you otg! But what about my surprize??!!! NOBODY find it yet...:what:

I probably read and re-read these 'interviews' dozen times. And everytime, I find something 'new' to which I didn't pay attention before. Yesterday was this kind of 'WOW' moment....but nobody catched it yet to say 'wow' with me.....

And yes, I do remember your post in regards of some cold case...something was about the old 'ticket'...and with brilliant interogation - the case was solved. Thank you for sharing and reminding us about!!!! You're a sweetheart!

jmo

OK, OM. Your challenge has been issued (and accepted). I’ll copy the portions of the interrogations you selected (in blue), and then write my responses in between.


25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are
1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal
2 intrusion on JonBenet?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
4 Prior to the night she was killed?
5 TOM HANEY: Correct.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.
9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.
11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.
13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.
15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have
16 been violated like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This
18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.
19 TOM HANEY: Take a minute, if you
20 would, I mean this seems -- you know, you didn't
21 know that before right now, the 25th, at 2:32?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I absolutely
23 did not.
24 TOM HANEY: Okay. Does--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: And I would like to
1 see where it says that and who reported that.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Do you have that?
4 TOM HANEY: Well, I don't have it
5 with us, no. As you can imagine, there is a lot
6 of material, and we surely didn't bring all the
7 photos, but--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, can you find
9 that?
10 TOM HANEY: Yeah. Because I think
11 it's pretty significant?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's damn
13 significant. You know, I am shocked.
..............................

I remember reading this before and thinking that PR really was surprised at the information that JonBenet had signs of prior vaginal trauma (We know that now to be the chronic injuries that Dr. Meyer referenced.). I don’t think she knew about the prior incidents. It looks like since you clipped this part in reference to your point about how a person responds to questioning that you think so too. Her answers are short, and they seem unrehearsed. After she regains her composure, she wants to know more about it.

Per your directives, OM, she’s not lying here -- she didn’t know about the prior injuries.

20 TOM HANEY: We talked yesterday or
21 the day before too about I told you of a
22 personal experience of being a policeman, people
23 tend to lie to me and you told me a few minutes
24 ago that you're telling me everything that you
25 know about.
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That's correct.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. And that's all
3 been truthful?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, sir.
5 TOM HANEY: And I told you then
6 that I wouldn't lie to you. And I don't have
7 any reason to lie to you.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Great.
9 TOM HANEY: And I didn't lie to you
10 about the information, this medical information
11 that I told you about.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, this is very
13 hurtful.
14 TOM HANEY: I know that. And if I
15 told you right now that we have in the process
16 of being examined trace evidence that appears to
17 link you to the death of JonBenet, what would
18 you tell me?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: That's totally
20 incredible. (INAUDIBLE).

Denial.

21 TOM HANEY: How is it impossible?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I did not kill my
23 child. I didn't have a thing to do with it.
24 TOM HANEY: And I am not talking,
25 you know, somebody's guess or some rumor or some
1 story.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't care what
3 you're talking about.
4 TOM HANEY: I am talking about
5 scientific evidence.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't give a damn
7 how scientific it is, go back to the damn
8 drawing board. I didn't do it. John Ramsey
9 didn't do it and we didn't have a clue of
10 anybody who did do it. So we all got to be
11 working together from this day forward to try to
12 find out who the hell did it.
13 I mean, I appreciate being here. I
14 appreciate it, it's very hard to be here. It is
15 a damn sight harder to be sitting at home in
16 Atlanta, Georgia wondering every second of every
17 day what you guys are doing out here, you know;
18 have you found anything, are we any closer, is
19 the guy out here watching my house.
20 You know, it's -- my life has been
21 hell from that day forward. And I want nothing
22 more than to find out who is responsible for
23 this. Okay. I mean, I want to work with you,
24 not against you. Okay.
25 This child was the most precious
1 thing in my life, and I can't stand the thought
2 thinking somebody's out there walking on the
3 street, God knows what, molest some other child.
4 Quit screwing around asking me things that are
5 ridiculous and let's find the person, let's end
6 that this.
7 (INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION HAD OFF THE
8 RECORD.)

The above seems (to me) prepared and rehearsed (she was after all a drama queen). The word “diatribe” comes to mind. I believe this part of the interview was at least the next day after her having gotten the information about the prior injuries, in which case she would have had time to discuss it with the lawyers and prepare for how to answer.

Next, we're going to JR's interview:

2 MIKE KANE: The autopsy report, have you
3 seen it?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
5 MIKE KANE: You haven't seen it?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I have not. I can't look at
7 that.

Okay, OM, here we’ve got JR on record as denying that he’s seen the AR.

8 MIKE KANE: Okay. Have you discussed in general
9 what's in there, in general?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Very little. It's hard to discuss
11 with her accidentally (INAUDIBLE).


(Wish we knew what was “inaudible” there to the transcriber after the word “accidentally”.)

12 MIKE KANE: What would that be?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: That there was her skull
14 fracture; that there were abrasions in her pubic
15 area; two of her organs were swollen which
16 indicated a slow death.

What??! I thought he just said he didn’t know anything about the AR. :giggle:

17 MIKE KANE: Did you do your own investigation
18 into this? Did you have any experts look into
19 those -- like you said there were bruises in the
20 pubic area?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if we did.
22 MIKE KANE: I mean here, now?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: I know. No, not to my knowledge.
24 MIKE KANE: I'll bring another aspect about
25 the (INAUDIBLE) fragments.

“(INAUDIBLE)” -- Maybe “wood”?

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think we've had
2 pathologists look into the report, but I don't
3 know where or what they said.
4 MIKE KANE: You never received the report
5 then?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
7 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)
8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
9 MIKE KANE: How about Mrs. Ramsey?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

Again, JR denies any knowledge of the injuries.

11 MIKE KANE: What do you understand about
12 that trauma, vaginal trauma?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: It's something I don't like
14 to think about. I don't understand or read
15 anything about it, because there are certain facts
16 that I just can't bear to know.

More denial of knowledge of the sexual injuries.

17 MIKE KANE: There has been some discussions
18 that I've heard since I've gotten involved in the
19 case that perhaps that it was prior vaginal
20 trauma. Now, I'm not talking sex assault or sex
21 abuse or some indications at least, that there may
22 have been something prior.
23 Is there anything that you can think of that would
24 account for that? Any opportunities she would have
25 had to be alone with somebody or even something
1 innocently that might account for that?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, certainly not that
3 we're aware of. I mean the kids stay with
4 babysitters from time to time. Susan Savage was a
5 babysitter, a family babysitter that the kids
6 would stay with. They stayed with her for a few
7 other.
8 Patsy's mother did a lot. She would come out and
9 stay with the kids if were going to be gone for a
10 while. There was a young college, well she's in
11 college, but she's college-aged girl who sat for
12 us several years before that if we needed her to.
13 (INAUDIBLE) watch the kids.
14 I remember Patsy when she went down to the
15 (INAUDIBLE). But it had been regular at that time.
16 I don't think I can remember.
17 MIKE KANE: Were there any short-term
18 babysitters like if you go out for the evening?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well even Susan used to
20 do that a lot.
21 MIKE KANE: Okay.
22 JOHN RAMSEY: This other girl did before
23 that. Susan pretty much lived for us when Patsy
24 had cancer that year. She did live with us. She
25 was there from dawn till dusk for literally for
1 the whole year. (INAUDIBLE).
2 MIKE KANE: Any other family members sit
3 with than your mother-in-law?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Don Paugh stayed for
5 a few times, cause he was their grandfather. Or
6 even they would go to his place. He had an
7 apartment over on Pearl Street. Not often or for
8 very long. You know, for an hour or two here.

Short (only) time periods with their grandfather?

9 MIKE KANE: And overnights?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, there might have been
11 one or two. If we were going to be out late and we
12 didn't' want to wake the kids up when they come
13 home.

What? “there might have been one or two (overnights).”

14 MIKE KANE: What do they think about them?
15 You know there are certain babysitters you say,
16 (INAUDIBLE) you can't wait, and another on they
17 say they don't want hear about. Are they any?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I can recall.
19 MIKE KANE: Did they enjoy staying with their
20 grandfather?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
22 MIKE KANE: And with Susan.
23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. As I recall, I think
24 probably the babysitter they weren't going to get
25 to go (INAUDIBLE). They only like to go and sleep.
1 So babysitters in general might (INAUDIBLE) a
2 particularly welcome sight.
3 LOU SMIT: How about neighbors, John? Any
4 of your neighbors (INAUDIBLE)?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: That babysat?
6 LOU SMIT: I don't think so. I don't think
7 anyone?

Who’s supposed to be answering the questions here? JR or LS?

8 MIKE KANE: Was there ever, I've never
9 seen her medical records but I heard that you
10 talked about comments about I noticed she had
11 (INAUDIBLE) at certain times. Was there ever


“(INAUDIBLE)” -- Vaginal infections?

12 treatment that you or Mrs. Ramsey had to do at
13 home for that?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I did. I don't know.
15 MIKE KANE: Any antibiotic treatment or anything?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: If there was, that was kind of
17 between Patsy and her, you know.

IOW: “I don’t’ know nothin’ about that kinda stuff! That’s all PR’s territory.”
.........................................
13 BRYAN MORGAN: As the record now
14 stands your office has never asked us for
15 anything that we have not given. I am pretty
16 clear on that.
17 LOU SMIT: And I have no doubt
18 about that.
19 BRYAN MORGAN: I know you have got
20 some phone records, I know we pulled all those
21 together. I don't think this is going to be a
22 problem. But we are going to take some time to
23 think about some islands of privacy that I think
24 you're entitled to have to continue your healing
25 process, and I am very serious about that. So
1 we will answer that in my view before the week's
2 out.

Phone records? Surprise!! So “we” (they -- the R’s and their legal team) “pulled all those together.”

..................................
4 MIKE KANE: Did you know anything
5 about JonBenet having dumbbells in her room?
6 Did she work out or anything like that?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.
8 How big were they? Were they -- Burke might
9 have had some, Patsy had some, she was
10 recovering from cancer, she used to ride her
11 bicycle and work these dumbbells. They were
12 usually -- they usually were in the TV room. I
13 am not sure they were there when she was works
14 out, but those were the dumbbells that we had
15 around.

“Dumbbells!” I know what that means. That means I need to do some more experiments. :floorlaugh:

 

[dodie20]

OK, OM. Your challenge has been issued (and accepted). I’ll copy the portions of the interrogations you selected (in blue), and then write my responses in between.


25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are
1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal
2 intrusion on JonBenet?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
4 Prior to the night she was killed?
5 TOM HANEY: Correct.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.
9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.
11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.
13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.
15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have
16 been violated like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This
18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.
19 TOM HANEY: Take a minute, if you
20 would, I mean this seems -- you know, you didn't
21 know that before right now, the 25th, at 2:32?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I absolutely
23 did not.
24 TOM HANEY: Okay. Does--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: And I would like to
1 see where it says that and who reported that.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Do you have that?
4 TOM HANEY: Well, I don't have it
5 with us, no. As you can imagine, there is a lot
6 of material, and we surely didn't bring all the
7 photos, but--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, can you find
9 that?
10 TOM HANEY: Yeah. Because I think
11 it's pretty significant?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's damn
13 significant. You know, I am shocked.
..............................

I remember reading this before and thinking that PR really was surprised at the information that JonBenet had signs of prior vaginal trauma (We know that now to be the chronic injuries that Dr. Meyer referenced.). I don’t think she knew about the prior incidents. It looks like since you clipped this part in reference to your point about how a person responds to questioning that you think so too. Her answers are short, and they seem unrehearsed. After she regains her composure, she wants to know more about it.

Per your directives, OM, she’s not lying here -- she didn’t know about the prior injuries.

20 TOM HANEY: We talked yesterday or
21 the day before too about I told you of a
22 personal experience of being a policeman, people
23 tend to lie to me and you told me a few minutes
24 ago that you're telling me everything that you
25 know about.
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That's correct.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. And that's all
3 been truthful?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, sir.
5 TOM HANEY: And I told you then
6 that I wouldn't lie to you. And I don't have
7 any reason to lie to you.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Great.
9 TOM HANEY: And I didn't lie to you
10 about the information, this medical information
11 that I told you about.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, this is very
13 hurtful.
14 TOM HANEY: I know that. And if I
15 told you right now that we have in the process
16 of being examined trace evidence that appears to
17 link you to the death of JonBenet, what would
18 you tell me?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: That's totally
20 incredible. (INAUDIBLE).

Denial.

21 TOM HANEY: How is it impossible?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I did not kill my
23 child. I didn't have a thing to do with it.
24 TOM HANEY: And I am not talking,
25 you know, somebody's guess or some rumor or some
1 story.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't care what
3 you're talking about.
4 TOM HANEY: I am talking about
5 scientific evidence.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't give a damn
7 how scientific it is, go back to the damn
8 drawing board. I didn't do it. John Ramsey
9 didn't do it and we didn't have a clue of
10 anybody who did do it. So we all got to be
11 working together from this day forward to try to
12 find out who the hell did it.
13 I mean, I appreciate being here. I
14 appreciate it, it's very hard to be here. It is
15 a damn sight harder to be sitting at home in
16 Atlanta, Georgia wondering every second of every
17 day what you guys are doing out here, you know;
18 have you found anything, are we any closer, is
19 the guy out here watching my house.
20 You know, it's -- my life has been
21 hell from that day forward. And I want nothing
22 more than to find out who is responsible for
23 this. Okay. I mean, I want to work with you,
24 not against you. Okay.
25 This child was the most precious
1 thing in my life, and I can't stand the thought
2 thinking somebody's out there walking on the
3 street, God knows what, molest some other child.
4 Quit screwing around asking me things that are
5 ridiculous and let's find the person, let's end
6 that this.
7 (INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION HAD OFF THE
8 RECORD.)

The above seems (to me) prepared and rehearsed (she was after all a drama queen). The word “diatribe” comes to mind. I believe this part of the interview was at least the next day after her having gotten the information about the prior injuries, in which case she would have had time to discuss it with the lawyers and prepare for how to answer.

Next, we're going to JR's interview:

2 MIKE KANE: The autopsy report, have you
3 seen it?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
5 MIKE KANE: You haven't seen it?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I have not. I can't look at
7 that.

Okay, OM, here we’ve got JR on record as denying that he’s seen the AR.

8 MIKE KANE: Okay. Have you discussed in general
9 what's in there, in general?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Very little. It's hard to discuss
11 with her accidentally (INAUDIBLE).


(Wish we knew what was “inaudible” there to the transcriber after the word “accidentally”.)

12 MIKE KANE: What would that be?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: That there was her skull
14 fracture; that there were abrasions in her pubic
15 area; two of her organs were swollen which
16 indicated a slow death.

What??! I thought he just said he didn’t know anything about the AR. :giggle:

17 MIKE KANE: Did you do your own investigation
18 into this? Did you have any experts look into
19 those -- like you said there were bruises in the
20 pubic area?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if we did.
22 MIKE KANE: I mean here, now?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: I know. No, not to my knowledge.
24 MIKE KANE: I'll bring another aspect about
25 the (INAUDIBLE) fragments.

“(INAUDIBLE)” -- Maybe “wood”?

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think we've had
2 pathologists look into the report, but I don't
3 know where or what they said.
4 MIKE KANE: You never received the report
5 then?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
7 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)
8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
9 MIKE KANE: How about Mrs. Ramsey?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

Again, JR denies any knowledge of the injuries.

11 MIKE KANE: What do you understand about
12 that trauma, vaginal trauma?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: It's something I don't like
14 to think about. I don't understand or read
15 anything about it, because there are certain facts
16 that I just can't bear to know.

More denial of knowledge of the sexual injuries.

17 MIKE KANE: There has been some discussions
18 that I've heard since I've gotten involved in the
19 case that perhaps that it was prior vaginal
20 trauma. Now, I'm not talking sex assault or sex
21 abuse or some indications at least, that there may
22 have been something prior.
23 Is there anything that you can think of that would
24 account for that? Any opportunities she would have
25 had to be alone with somebody or even something
1 innocently that might account for that?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, certainly not that
3 we're aware of. I mean the kids stay with
4 babysitters from time to time. Susan Savage was a
5 babysitter, a family babysitter that the kids
6 would stay with. They stayed with her for a few
7 other.
8 Patsy's mother did a lot. She would come out and
9 stay with the kids if were going to be gone for a
10 while. There was a young college, well she's in
11 college, but she's college-aged girl who sat for
12 us several years before that if we needed her to.
13 (INAUDIBLE) watch the kids.
14 I remember Patsy when she went down to the
15 (INAUDIBLE). But it had been regular at that time.
16 I don't think I can remember.
17 MIKE KANE: Were there any short-term
18 babysitters like if you go out for the evening?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well even Susan used to
20 do that a lot.
21 MIKE KANE: Okay.
22 JOHN RAMSEY: This other girl did before
23 that. Susan pretty much lived for us when Patsy
24 had cancer that year. She did live with us. She
25 was there from dawn till dusk for literally for
1 the whole year. (INAUDIBLE).
2 MIKE KANE: Any other family members sit
3 with than your mother-in-law?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Don Paugh stayed for
5 a few times, cause he was their grandfather. Or
6 even they would go to his place. He had an
7 apartment over on Pearl Street. Not often or for
8 very long. You know, for an hour or two here.

Short (only) time periods with their grandfather?

9 MIKE KANE: And overnights?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, there might have been
11 one or two. If we were going to be out late and we
12 didn't' want to wake the kids up when they come
13 home.

What? “there might have been one or two (overnights).”

14 MIKE KANE: What do they think about them?
15 You know there are certain babysitters you say,
16 (INAUDIBLE) you can't wait, and another on they
17 say they don't want hear about. Are they any?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I can recall.
19 MIKE KANE: Did they enjoy staying with their
20 grandfather?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
22 MIKE KANE: And with Susan.
23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. As I recall, I think
24 probably the babysitter they weren't going to get
25 to go (INAUDIBLE). They only like to go and sleep.
1 So babysitters in general might (INAUDIBLE) a
2 particularly welcome sight.
3 LOU SMIT: How about neighbors, John? Any
4 of your neighbors (INAUDIBLE)?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: That babysat?
6 LOU SMIT: I don't think so. I don't think
7 anyone?

Who’s supposed to be answering the questions here? JR or LS?

8 MIKE KANE: Was there ever, I've never
9 seen her medical records but I heard that you
10 talked about comments about I noticed she had
11 (INAUDIBLE) at certain times. Was there ever


“(INAUDIBLE)” -- Vaginal infections?

12 treatment that you or Mrs. Ramsey had to do at
13 home for that?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I did. I don't know.
15 MIKE KANE: Any antibiotic treatment or anything?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: If there was, that was kind of
17 between Patsy and her, you know.

IOW: “I don’t’ know nothin’ about that kinda stuff! That’s all PR’s territory.”
.........................................
13 BRYAN MORGAN: As the record now
14 stands your office has never asked us for
15 anything that we have not given. I am pretty
16 clear on that.
17 LOU SMIT: And I have no doubt
18 about that.
19 BRYAN MORGAN: I know you have got
20 some phone records, I know we pulled all those
21 together. I don't think this is going to be a
22 problem. But we are going to take some time to
23 think about some islands of privacy that I think
24 you're entitled to have to continue your healing
25 process, and I am very serious about that. So
1 we will answer that in my view before the week's
2 out.

Phone records? Surprise!! So “we” (they -- the R’s and their legal team) “pulled all those together.”

..................................
4 MIKE KANE: Did you know anything
5 about JonBenet having dumbbells in her room?
6 Did she work out or anything like that?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.
8 How big were they? Were they -- Burke might
9 have had some, Patsy had some, she was
10 recovering from cancer, she used to ride her
11 bicycle and work these dumbbells. They were
12 usually -- they usually were in the TV room. I
13 am not sure they were there when she was works
14 out, but those were the dumbbells that we had
15 around.

“Dumbbells!” I know what that means. That means I need to do some more experiments. :floorlaugh:

about PR being surprised. Yes, she did seem surprised, but was it because she didn't know, or was she surprised that investigators discovered it? If she was the perp, she might have thought she did a thorough job of covering prior abuse. If this was the case, she might have shown genuine surprise. Also, if she was responsible for the prior injuries, she might have convinced herself that what she was doing was something besides sexual abuse, so to be sitting there while LE labeled what she she did as a 'violation', may have been a shock to her system. This is what I don't understand. She had confided to a friend, (supposedly), that she douched JB, because of soiling issues. IMO, this was a cover for the prior injuries...so why didn't she take this opportunity to bring it up? Her not bringing up, is very suspicious, IMO. IMO, it looks like she might have realized that she was in over her head, and needed time to think. The next we heard from the Rs about the prior abuse, was there was none! Deny, deny, deny. Another thing. If she had been covering for JR abusing JB, (the douching and the rape), the same 'surprise' theory would stand. She might have been surprised that the prior injuries were discovered. All moo.

 

[dodie20]

Another thing about PR's surprise. I'm not buying that she didn't know about the prior abuse. Nothing got by this lady. IMO, her reaction might have been because the prior abuse was a Main factor in JB's murder, and was something that she didn't want investigators to know. And then finding out that LE was on to them, would have put her in a bind. What to do? Discuss it with JR, the legal team and the pediatrician and then deny that it existed. all moo Anyway, her immediate reaction compared to their later denials convinces me that the prior abuse played a big part in the murder. moo

 

[OpenMind4U]

OpenMind4U - I noticed that they said they had gotten phone records together, and then they mentioned islands of privacy so they could continue healing! What the heck is all this about? I thought they did not get any phone records. Why the island of privacy? Could it be JR was calling a woman and PR not aware of it?

BINGO!!!! Darlene, otg and others who find it!!! Even if you didn't - it's OK...I kind of make you think and read and this is productive thing...agree?....'Repetition is Mother of Learning'!:seeya:

Now, remember I told you how it's important to watch body landuage? Well, it's important to even know WHO'S TALKING TO WHOM?

Please read again! In 'blue', Bryan Morgan (John's attorney who's present during interogation) is talking to BPD (LS).
In 'red', Bryan Morgan is talking to his client, John Ramsey, in front of BPD. So, what are THEY talking about?

13 BRYAN MORGAN: As the record now
14 stands your office has never asked us for
15 anything that we have not given. I am pretty
16 clear on that. 17 LOU SMIT: And I have no doubt
18 about that.
19 BRYAN MORGAN: I know you have got
20 some phone records, I know we pulled all those
21 together. I don't think this is going to be a
22 problem. But we are going to take some time to
23 think about some islands of privacy that I think
24 you're entitled to have to continue your healing
25 process, and I am very serious about that. So
1 we will answer that in my view before the week's
2 out.

I don't know about you but when I understood what I'm reading, I was 'floored'.:banghead:
This is 1998 and right upfront of me, the DEAL is going on between Ramseys lawyer and BPD...not DA...BPD.

Ramsey has delivered to BPD the phone records...Now, Ramsey can start the process of obtaining and legalize the 'ISLAND OF PRIVACY' = SEAL ALL MEDICAL RECORDS process for Ramsey's 'healing process'....and BPD is saying NOTHING.

To me, it looks like the DEAL just happens...would you agree???

I'm very much interested to hear your take on this one...because as you all know (Kolar book), AH has CLEARed Burke in 2000.

jmo

 

[OpenMind4U]

I read the portion of the statement you posted, and wonder if your sentence has anything to do with the "accidentally" line?? Otherwise, you sure have hidden your surprise statement line well from me!

I also have this question: The date of the interrogation is June 1998? Or am I getting that wrong? John Ramsey said when questioned that he had not seen the autopsy report.

But in PMPT, pg 485, it states that Bryan Morgan, one of the attorneys, is now going over the autopsy report, just after is was released, with John, and John breaks down emotionally. The first release of the autopsy report, probably with some information redacted was Feb. 14, 1997. I guess I must not have my dates straight on when John saw the first released information, because I assumed PMPT was referring to the first public release date of Feb 1997.
Do you have any comments/knowledge about the dates? Otherwise, if John had been shown the autopsy report by Morgan, had a breakdown over what he saw, in 1997, then why would he, in June 1998, state he had not seen the report?

MM,

No, you're correct. The FIRST, initial AR was available to Ramsey's camp in 1997.
And Patsy LIED in her 1997 interview that she didn't read it.

But 'chronic' abuse wasn't there yet!...Remember, it took Meyer and other experts a lot of time of discussion and meetings with BPD, FBI and DA to understand what are they dealing here. Acute injury has no problem to reveal. But 'chronic' = molestation issue was much harder topic to deal with and if 'chronic' issue is true then BPD has much different game to play!...So, the issue of 'molestation' based on chronic abuse was presented to Ramsey's in 1998...as has been documented ON RECORD in these interogations.

Makes sense?

jmo

 

[OpenMind4U]

Just to make clear WHEN 'island of privacy'= sealed documents happened...

Unspecific documentary evidence. It is not known precisely what documents the Ramseys have voluntarily turned over to authorities and when they did so, but they have submitted some documentary evidence.
The Ramseys allowed Burke and JonBenét Ramseys' medical records to be released early in the investigation (JonBenét's medical records from pediatrician Dr. Beuf logged in 1/10/97 according to an affidavit accompanying a search warrant), and provided other documentary evidence to the DA in June 1998, 18 months after the murder. At that time the Ramseys promised to turn over all documentary evidence requested.
In June, 1998, Larry Pozner, who is an NBC legal analyst and trial attorney in Denver who does not officially represent the Ramseys, stated that the Ramseys had handed over Patsy's medical records and phone records. He also claimed the Ramseys had been cooperating with the DA's office for at least a year, both answering questions and turning over documents. Hal Haddon, John Ramsey's attorney concurred that they had been cooperating. DA Hunter denied that such a relationship existed and stated there had been no contact whatsoever between his office and the Ramseys.

http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/senate/6502/primer/primer5_ce.html

 

[BOESP]

OM4U said above: "Ramsey has delivered to BPD the phone records...Now, Ramsey can start the process of obtaining and legalize the 'ISLAND OF PRIVACY' = SEAL ALL MEDICAL RECORDS process for Ramsey's 'healing process'....and BPD is saying NOTHING."


Iirc and understood correctly, Lou Smit did not work for the Boulder Police Department. He worked for the DA's office. He was called in as a special investigator to be a Devil's Advocate against the DA's evidence of Ramsey guilt. While acting in that capacity, Smit decided the Ramseys were innocent.

 

[OpenMind4U]

OM4U said above: "Ramsey has delivered to BPD the phone records...Now, Ramsey can start the process of obtaining and legalize the 'ISLAND OF PRIVACY' = SEAL ALL MEDICAL RECORDS process for Ramsey's 'healing process'....and BPD is saying NOTHING."


Iirc and understood correctly, Lou Smit did not work for the Boulder Police Department. He worked for the DA's office. He was called in as a special investigator to be a Devil's Advocate against the DA's evidence of Ramsey guilt. While acting in that capacity, Smit decided the Ramseys were innocent.

Absolutely agree in regards of LS. However, the interogation was performed by BPD with Mike Kane in presents.

 

[Nom de plume]

BINGO!!!! Darlene, otg and others who find it!!! Even if you didn't - it's OK...I kind of make you think and read and this is productive thing...agree?....'Repetition is Mother of Learning'!:seeya:

Now, remember I told you how it's important to watch body landuage? Well, it's important to even know WHO'S TALKING TO WHOM?

Please read again! In 'blue', Bryan Morgan (John's attorney who's present during interogation) is talking to BPD (LS).
In 'red', Bryan Morgan is talking to his client, John Ramsey, in front of BPD. So, what are THEY talking about?



I don't know about you but when I understood what I'm reading, I was 'floored'.:banghead:
This is 1998 and right upfront of me, the DEAL is going on between Ramseys lawyer and BPD...not DA...BPD.

Ramsey has delivered to BPD the phone records...Now, Ramsey can start the process of obtaining and legalize the 'ISLAND OF PRIVACY' = SEAL ALL MEDICAL RECORDS process for Ramsey's 'healing process'....and BPD is saying NOTHING.

To me, it looks like the DEAL just happens...would you agree???

I'm very much interested to hear your take on this one...because as you all know (Kolar book), AH has CLEARed Burke in 2000.

jmo

NO! Ramsey did NOT deliver the phone records to BPD!! Steve Thomas tried repeatedly to get the phone records, which by the way were already in the evidence room, and was DENIED access by the DA's office numerous times!!! To this day BPD does NOT have the phone records!

 

[midwest mama]

NO! Ramsey did NOT deliver the phone records to BPD!! Steve Thomas tried repeatedly to get the phone records, which by the way were already in the evidence room, and was DENIED access by the DA's office numerous times!!! To this day BPD does NOT have the phone records!

Correct, as per Thomas' book. And as OM posted above, R's attorney's turned over Patsy's phone records. No statement that John's were turned over. In fact, IIRC, a cell phone even went missing.

Both Thomas and Kolar stated in their books that it was determined that Patsy called her friends AFTER making the 911 call, so it was no surprise that BPD had some of the phone records from the house early on. It was obviously the cell phone records of the R's that were discussed in the posting.

And, as bayareamom, who has recently joined WS and posted with regard to an attorney's client responsibility, the R's lawyers would have had do their best to protect their clients. They felt it prudent to turn over Patsy's records -- (nothing to hide?), but not John's? Protection?

 

[Bayareamom]

Have no idea why they didn't turn over John's records. I could of course speculate and say that there was (obviously) something SOMEONE didn't want SOMEONE to see...

But that's pretty clear, isn't it.

 

[dodie20]

OK, OM. Your challenge has been issued (and accepted). I’ll copy the portions of the interrogations you selected (in blue), and then write my responses in between.


25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are
1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal
2 intrusion on JonBenet?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
4 Prior to the night she was killed?
5 TOM HANEY: Correct.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.
9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.
11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.
13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.
15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have
16 been violated like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This
18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.
19 TOM HANEY: Take a minute, if you
20 would, I mean this seems -- you know, you didn't
21 know that before right now, the 25th, at 2:32?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I absolutely
23 did not.
24 TOM HANEY: Okay. Does--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: And I would like to
1 see where it says that and who reported that.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Do you have that?
4 TOM HANEY: Well, I don't have it
5 with us, no. As you can imagine, there is a lot
6 of material, and we surely didn't bring all the
7 photos, but--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, can you find
9 that?
10 TOM HANEY: Yeah. Because I think
11 it's pretty significant?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's damn
13 significant. You know, I am shocked.
..............................

I remember reading this before and thinking that PR really was surprised at the information that JonBenet had signs of prior vaginal trauma (We know that now to be the chronic injuries that Dr. Meyer referenced.). I don’t think she knew about the prior incidents. It looks like since you clipped this part in reference to your point about how a person responds to questioning that you think so too. Her answers are short, and they seem unrehearsed. After she regains her composure, she wants to know more about it.

Per your directives, OM, she’s not lying here -- she didn’t know about the prior injuries.

20 TOM HANEY: We talked yesterday or
21 the day before too about I told you of a
22 personal experience of being a policeman, people
23 tend to lie to me and you told me a few minutes
24 ago that you're telling me everything that you
25 know about.
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That's correct.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. And that's all
3 been truthful?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, sir.
5 TOM HANEY: And I told you then
6 that I wouldn't lie to you. And I don't have
7 any reason to lie to you.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Great.
9 TOM HANEY: And I didn't lie to you
10 about the information, this medical information
11 that I told you about.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, this is very
13 hurtful.
14 TOM HANEY: I know that. And if I
15 told you right now that we have in the process
16 of being examined trace evidence that appears to
17 link you to the death of JonBenet, what would
18 you tell me?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: That's totally
20 incredible. (INAUDIBLE).

Denial.

21 TOM HANEY: How is it impossible?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I did not kill my
23 child. I didn't have a thing to do with it.
24 TOM HANEY: And I am not talking,
25 you know, somebody's guess or some rumor or some
1 story.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't care what
3 you're talking about.
4 TOM HANEY: I am talking about
5 scientific evidence.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't give a damn
7 how scientific it is, go back to the damn
8 drawing board. I didn't do it. John Ramsey
9 didn't do it and we didn't have a clue of
10 anybody who did do it. So we all got to be
11 working together from this day forward to try to
12 find out who the hell did it.
13 I mean, I appreciate being here. I
14 appreciate it, it's very hard to be here. It is
15 a damn sight harder to be sitting at home in
16 Atlanta, Georgia wondering every second of every
17 day what you guys are doing out here, you know;
18 have you found anything, are we any closer, is
19 the guy out here watching my house.
20 You know, it's -- my life has been
21 hell from that day forward. And I want nothing
22 more than to find out who is responsible for
23 this. Okay. I mean, I want to work with you,
24 not against you. Okay.
25 This child was the most precious
1 thing in my life, and I can't stand the thought
2 thinking somebody's out there walking on the
3 street, God knows what, molest some other child.
4 Quit screwing around asking me things that are
5 ridiculous and let's find the person, let's end
6 that this.
7 (INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION HAD OFF THE
8 RECORD.)

The above seems (to me) prepared and rehearsed (she was after all a drama queen). The word “diatribe” comes to mind. I believe this part of the interview was at least the next day after her having gotten the information about the prior injuries, in which case she would have had time to discuss it with the lawyers and prepare for how to answer.

Next, we're going to JR's interview:

2 MIKE KANE: The autopsy report, have you
3 seen it?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
5 MIKE KANE: You haven't seen it?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I have not. I can't look at
7 that.

Okay, OM, here we’ve got JR on record as denying that he’s seen the AR.

8 MIKE KANE: Okay. Have you discussed in general
9 what's in there, in general?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Very little. It's hard to discuss
11 with her accidentally (INAUDIBLE).


(Wish we knew what was “inaudible” there to the transcriber after the word “accidentally”.)

12 MIKE KANE: What would that be?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: That there was her skull
14 fracture; that there were abrasions in her pubic
15 area; two of her organs were swollen which
16 indicated a slow death.

What??! I thought he just said he didn’t know anything about the AR. :giggle:

17 MIKE KANE: Did you do your own investigation
18 into this? Did you have any experts look into
19 those -- like you said there were bruises in the
20 pubic area?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if we did.
22 MIKE KANE: I mean here, now?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: I know. No, not to my knowledge.
24 MIKE KANE: I'll bring another aspect about
25 the (INAUDIBLE) fragments.

“(INAUDIBLE)” -- Maybe “wood”?

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think we've had
2 pathologists look into the report, but I don't
3 know where or what they said.
4 MIKE KANE: You never received the report
5 then?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
7 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)
8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
9 MIKE KANE: How about Mrs. Ramsey?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

Again, JR denies any knowledge of the injuries.

11 MIKE KANE: What do you understand about
12 that trauma, vaginal trauma?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: It's something I don't like
14 to think about. I don't understand or read
15 anything about it, because there are certain facts
16 that I just can't bear to know.

More denial of knowledge of the sexual injuries.

17 MIKE KANE: There has been some discussions
18 that I've heard since I've gotten involved in the
19 case that perhaps that it was prior vaginal
20 trauma. Now, I'm not talking sex assault or sex
21 abuse or some indications at least, that there may
22 have been something prior.
23 Is there anything that you can think of that would
24 account for that? Any opportunities she would have
25 had to be alone with somebody or even something
1 innocently that might account for that?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, certainly not that
3 we're aware of. I mean the kids stay with
4 babysitters from time to time. Susan Savage was a
5 babysitter, a family babysitter that the kids
6 would stay with. They stayed with her for a few
7 other.
8 Patsy's mother did a lot. She would come out and
9 stay with the kids if were going to be gone for a
10 while. There was a young college, well she's in
11 college, but she's college-aged girl who sat for
12 us several years before that if we needed her to.
13 (INAUDIBLE) watch the kids.
14 I remember Patsy when she went down to the
15 (INAUDIBLE). But it had been regular at that time.
16 I don't think I can remember.
17 MIKE KANE: Were there any short-term
18 babysitters like if you go out for the evening?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well even Susan used to
20 do that a lot.
21 MIKE KANE: Okay.
22 JOHN RAMSEY: This other girl did before
23 that. Susan pretty much lived for us when Patsy
24 had cancer that year. She did live with us. She
25 was there from dawn till dusk for literally for
1 the whole year. (INAUDIBLE).
2 MIKE KANE: Any other family members sit
3 with than your mother-in-law?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Don Paugh stayed for
5 a few times, cause he was their grandfather. Or
6 even they would go to his place. He had an
7 apartment over on Pearl Street. Not often or for
8 very long. You know, for an hour or two here.

Short (only) time periods with their grandfather?

9 MIKE KANE: And overnights?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, there might have been
11 one or two. If we were going to be out late and we
12 didn't' want to wake the kids up when they come
13 home.

What? “there might have been one or two (overnights).”

14 MIKE KANE: What do they think about them?
15 You know there are certain babysitters you say,
16 (INAUDIBLE) you can't wait, and another on they
17 say they don't want hear about. Are they any?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I can recall.
19 MIKE KANE: Did they enjoy staying with their
20 grandfather?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
22 MIKE KANE: And with Susan.
23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. As I recall, I think
24 probably the babysitter they weren't going to get
25 to go (INAUDIBLE). They only like to go and sleep.
1 So babysitters in general might (INAUDIBLE) a
2 particularly welcome sight.
3 LOU SMIT: How about neighbors, John? Any
4 of your neighbors (INAUDIBLE)?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: That babysat?
6 LOU SMIT: I don't think so. I don't think
7 anyone?

Who’s supposed to be answering the questions here? JR or LS?

8 MIKE KANE: Was there ever, I've never
9 seen her medical records but I heard that you
10 talked about comments about I noticed she had
11 (INAUDIBLE) at certain times. Was there ever


“(INAUDIBLE)” -- Vaginal infections?

12 treatment that you or Mrs. Ramsey had to do at
13 home for that?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I did. I don't know.
15 MIKE KANE: Any antibiotic treatment or anything?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: If there was, that was kind of
17 between Patsy and her, you know.

IOW: “I don’t’ know nothin’ about that kinda stuff! That’s all PR’s territory.”
.........................................
13 BRYAN MORGAN: As the record now
14 stands your office has never asked us for
15 anything that we have not given. I am pretty
16 clear on that.
17 LOU SMIT: And I have no doubt
18 about that.
19 BRYAN MORGAN: I know you have got
20 some phone records, I know we pulled all those
21 together. I don't think this is going to be a
22 problem. But we are going to take some time to
23 think about some islands of privacy that I think
24 you're entitled to have to continue your healing
25 process, and I am very serious about that. So
1 we will answer that in my view before the week's
2 out.

Phone records? Surprise!! So “we” (they -- the R’s and their legal team) “pulled all those together.”

..................................
4 MIKE KANE: Did you know anything
5 about JonBenet having dumbbells in her room?
6 Did she work out or anything like that?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.
8 How big were they? Were they -- Burke might
9 have had some, Patsy had some, she was
10 recovering from cancer, she used to ride her
11 bicycle and work these dumbbells. They were
12 usually -- they usually were in the TV room. I
13 am not sure they were there when she was works
14 out, but those were the dumbbells that we had
15 around.

“Dumbbells!” I know what that means. That means I need to do some more experiments. :floorlaugh:

I'm still thinking about JR's 'it's hard to discuss with her accidentally'. Who is 'her' and what accident? and then he went on to talk about the skull fracture. What the heck, and I mean, what the heck? Was he trying to imply that maybe this was an accident, but it was too hard to discuss with PR? because of the pubic area abrasions and slow death?

 

[dodie20]

NO! Ramsey did NOT deliver the phone records to BPD!! Steve Thomas tried repeatedly to get the phone records, which by the way were already in the evidence room, and was DENIED access by the DA's office numerous times!!! To this day BPD does NOT have the phone records!

Did the DA give a reason for the denial?

 

[UKGuy]

Correct, as per Thomas' book. And as OM posted above, R's attorney's turned over Patsy's phone records. No statement that John's were turned over. In fact, IIRC, a cell phone even went missing.

Both Thomas and Kolar stated in their books that it was determined that Patsy called her friends AFTER making the 911 call, so it was no surprise that BPD had some of the phone records from the house early on. It was obviously the cell phone records of the R's that were discussed in the posting.

And, as bayareamom, who has recently joined WS and posted with regard to an attorney's client responsibility, the R's lawyers would have had do their best to protect their clients. They felt it prudent to turn over Patsy's records -- (nothing to hide?), but not John's? Protection?

midwest mama,
I think what JR was seeking to hide was that a call was made on his cellphone long before the 911 call was made, and outwith his version of events.

Revealing this would be detrimental to any future court case, so Bryan Morgan, was probably claiming client confidentiality, upto and until the case was in front of a judge and jury?

Did JR phone Dr. Beuf in the early hours of 12/26/1996, was he one of the many people in the house that morning, did Dr. Beuf tell JR JonBenet was in a non-recoverable coma?

This is another example of the DA colluding with the plaintiff!


.

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

I definitely think that Patsy was aware of the "games" being played between Burke and JonBenet. She may not have realized until December 25th how far things had actually gone though. So, yes, there was denial going on. Mothers of sexually abused kids go in one of two directions, deny or protect. Patsy probably thought that getting counseling for Burke would "fix" things, and that was all she planned to do. I bet in retrospect she had tons of over looked red flags.