Who was molested on the 23rd?

[cherisa]

Ok I understand now, thank you!

 

[David Rogers]

I feel like the Lone Ranger. This just doesn't get discussed. I believe, until someone shows me differently, that the relationship between Don Paugh, Patsy, and JonBenet is key in her death. I don't believe John, Burke, or anyone else played a part in JB's death. I believe John helped cover it up. Don Paugh was at the party on the 23rd.

Patsy knows how to keep quiet. Don knows how to keep quiet. Unfortunately JonBenet who doesn’t feel pretty anymore does not. So how do you keep her quiet?

 

[MaryNo]

Patsy knows how to keep quiet. Don knows how to keep quiet. Unfortunately JonBenet who doesn’t feel pretty anymore does not. So how do you keep her quiet?

I think this is the basis for the 911, and the caller was convinced that what they saw/heard, was not what they saw/heard. The motive, IMO, was the relationship between mother/grandfather, that possibly transformed to one between granddaughter/grandfather.

 

[kaykay543]

Hi all! It's been a long time, but life sometimes gets in the way of online sleuthing. There's a theory that I've had for years, and no one seems to touch on it. I'd like to raise the issue again here, as the 23rd is the date that I believe "the thing" happened that is the motive for why JonBenet was murdered. I've read the books, but again, it's glossed over, as if "there's nothing to see here." I believe Patsy is responsible, and it was premeditated.
What day did Patsy Ramsey's father go back home, instead of staying for Christmas at the Ramsey's?

Edited to add: Don Paugh left the morning of the 24th. My theory is that JonBenet was molested on the 23rd, with JB possibly saying something, or the molestation was interrupted by White. 9/11 is called, and for some reason it wasn't reported that night. Paugh leaves early the next morning.

IMO there was a history of sexual abuse in PR family. I don't doubt that at all. But I don't think anything happened on the 23rd.

Lets just say all of that happened. Why would PR wait to murder her? And why do it in such a horrible way? And how would she get JR to go along with it? I guess I am not clear on your theory. IF as you say it was premeditated for days; seems like a really horrible way to complete the plan.

IMO FW would not have caved if he saw JBR being molested that night. He seemed to stand up to JR just fine and had that falling out with him in Atlanta. I don't think if he saw something that night he would just hang up and wash his hands of it.

 

[John Parnell]

John and Patsy were arguing with Fleet White about the what Fleet White discovered the kids doing


Sure, but only a Ramsey resident is going to know which phones need an access code to phone out, their guests will be in the dark on this aspect.

If it was me I'd be answering the door to the responding officer to apologise for wasting his time and thanking him/her for turning up.

On this occasion Susan Stine took this role while John and Patsy, like the actual residents, were doing what?

 

[John Parnell]

Having had the same type telephone system in my home
in the same time frame as the R. All our very close friends
knew how to operate the phone for out going calls.
IE the W & S. JMO

 

[MaryNo]

IMO there was a history of sexual abuse in PR family. I don't doubt that at all. But I don't think anything happened on the 23rd.

Lets just say all of that happened. Why would PR wait to murder her? And why do it in such a horrible way? And how would she get JR to go along with it? I guess I am not clear on your theory. IF as you say it was premeditated for days; seems like a really horrible way to complete the plan.

IMO FW would not have caved if he saw JBR being molested that night. He seemed to stand up to JR just fine and had that falling out with him in Atlanta. I don't think if he saw something that night he would just hang up and wash his hands of it.

I wouldn't suggest that he would cave, if he was certain she was being molested. He saw or heard something that he wasn't meant to hear, or see. Don Paugh made certain to let the police know that he was acting weird at the party.

 

[angelina1]

If she smelled strongly of decomposition and was in full rigor mortis, could she have been kept in the freezer picture in the same room that her body was found in for a couple of days?

Her body was not found in a couple of days...

 

[David Rogers]

One thing that really intrigues me is the 911 hang up phone call on the 23rd. I find it interesting that the next morning Grandpa flys to Atlanta on Stand By status to get out of town. Who is in Atlanta? John Ramseys oldest sun who’s blanket covered in semen and an adult DR. Seuss book were found in the basement. I think there is a connection there since the whole family in Atlanta got lawyers. Was the molestor in Atlanta?

 

[Juror7]

kaykay543,
There might be, since Patsy made much out an argument she and JonBenet had over what to wear to the White's.

A photograph showing JonBenet's hairstyle at the White's might resolve why JonBenet's hair was dressed in ponytails?

No ponytails means Patsy is lying outright and probably means PDI is back on the table?

.

 

[Juror7]

A photo at the White's party show JonBenet with her hair down. Her hair was in 2 ponytails she she was murdered.

 

[UKGuy]

A photo at the White's party show JonBenet with her hair down. Her hair was in 2 ponytails she she was murdered.

Juror7,
Sure and that's how you know you are dealing with a staged crime-scene and not an intruder scenario!

.

 

[MaryNo]

One thing that really intrigues me is the 911 hang up phone call on the 23rd. I find it interesting that the next morning Grandpa flys to Atlanta on Stand By status to get out of town. Who is in Atlanta? John Ramseys oldest sun who’s blanket covered in semen and an adult DR. Seuss book were found in the basement. I think there is a connection there since the whole family in Atlanta got lawyers. Was the molestor in Atlanta?

THIS has been part of my PDI theory for YEARS! I don't believe it was ever investigated. In one interview, Patsy's own past was touched on, but LEO didn't behave as if this were a big deal. I think it IS a big deal, and believe there's a connection between Patsy's past, and her daughter's murder. Unfortunately, there's no way to prove it.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I’ve always found it strange how patsy didn’t know or wasn’t sure/couldn’t remember which clothes belong to which child/ person in that home. I’m sure there’s some pj bottoms that patsy couldn’t be sure who they belonged to. Imo she knew exactly how the clothing JonBenét was found in ended up on her and she is covering up for either herself or someone else in the Ramsey house. Experts are certain JonBenét suffered chronic sexual abuse so someone is lying because if that were my daughter I’d be shouting from rooftops who is the child molestor? Unless they knew all along who had abused JonBenét.
Sadly we will never have answers and JonBenét will never have justice which is why this case is so haunting.

 

[UKGuy]

I’ve always found it strange how patsy didn’t know or wasn’t sure/couldn’t remember which clothes belong to which child/ person in that home. I’m sure there’s some pj bottoms that patsy couldn’t be sure who they belonged to. Imo she knew exactly how the clothing JonBenét was found in ended up on her and she is covering up for either herself or someone else in the Ramsey house. Experts are certain JonBenét suffered chronic sexual abuse so someone is lying because if that were my daughter I’d be shouting from rooftops who is the child molestor? Unless they knew all along who had abused JonBenét.
Sadly we will never have answers and JonBenét will never have justice which is why this case is so haunting.

Blondiexoxo,
Sure Patsy has a lot to explain, like where did JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms go to while her pink pajama top survived quite nicely atop her bed as seen in the crime-scene photographs?

This is Patsy's rationale for telling investigators why she dressed JonBenet in Burke's longjohns, e.g. the pajama bottoms were missing so I chose the long underwear, as they were known before Burke's name was attched to them.

I’m sure there’s some pj bottoms that patsy couldn’t be sure who they belonged to.

These could be the pair of fecally soiled, now thats a clue, pajamas James Kolar says was found on JonBenet's bedroom floor, see his book for details?

As for the chronic abuse Patsy knew stuff was going on, it all depends on who was responsible?

Patsy told investigators that Burke and JonBenet shared a bedroom on Christmas Eve, and commented this was a regular thing, so why not Christmas Night too, not a question posed of course?

Consider that both Burke and JonBenet were in therapy just prior to her death, thats another clue,

Then we have the GJ hitting both parents with child abuse counts, i.e. via neglect or leaving JonBenet in a vulnerable position, thats another clue.

If you join the dots you can arrive at an uncomfortable conclusion.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

I had read that a fecally soiled pair of black pants belonging to JB had been found, not pajama bottoms. However, given that JB wet the bed every night, her pink pajama bottoms may have been urine-stained or blood stained if she had been wearing them when the abuse (coroner stated digital penetration) or whatever caused he own blood to be found in her vagina, they may have been hidden/removed like the original size 6-8 panties that can't be found either.

 

[UKGuy]

I had read that a fecally soiled pair of black pants belonging to JB had been found, not pajama bottoms. However, given that JB wet the bed every night, her pink pajama bottoms may have been urine-stained or blood stained if she had been wearing them when the abuse (coroner stated digital penetration) or whatever caused he own blood to be found in her vagina, they may have been hidden/removed like the original size 6-8 panties that can't be found either.

DeeDee249,

I had read that a fecally soiled pair of black pants belonging to JB had been found,

You did, I think its in Steve Thomas' book, or one of the BPD Interviews.

These were lying on her bathroom floor. I think Patsy was shown a crime scene photo of them, there was some talk about JonBenet changing pants that afternoon?

What Kolar says is different he sources a pair of fecally soiled boys pajama bottoms as found on JonBenet's bedroom floor, from memory its a crime-scene report.

Perfect Murder Perfect Town

First, Hoffmann-Pugh was asked about JonBenét’s bedroom.The photos showed everything from her beds to her bedding, her TV, her videotapes, and her shoes.

She was asked about the many hair ties scattered on the floor at the foot of the bed and in front of the closet. Hoffmann-Pugh said that wasn’t normal. The ties were usually kept in a basket in the bathroom.

Maybe one or two would be lying on the bathroom counter, but they were never on the floor, or even in the bedroom.

Patsy Ramsey (6/98) Looking at crime scene photos

(0262-16) THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Move on to 13.
PATSY RAMSEY: That was her hair tie, that little (INAUDIBLE).
TRIP DeMUTH: That unusual for them to be on the floor?
PATSY RAMSEY: No. - (0262-25)
PATSY RAMSEY: No (INAUDIBLE).
This piece of paper with the instructions forthe pot holder or something.

Add in that JonBenet was wearing a pair of Burke Ramsey's longjohns, that her Pink Barbie Nightgown was bloodstained and had deposits of Burke Ramsey's touch dna, did one of the parents pick the only nightgown to show Burke's dna deposits?

JonBenet's two ponytails might be incidental, but along with her Last Photo demonstrate why the parents version of events is questionable?

With Patsy crying when she saw the Red Turtle neck I wonder if she was put to bed in it, but for whatever reason it was the high neck that was used to asphyxiate JonBenet manually, possibly leading to coma?

.

 

[katsrfun]

That 911 call is one of the stranger pieces of info to me, but I feel like if it had been something as serious as molestation, that would've come out at some point. There's nothing stopping anyone from disclosing what they saw at a party, particularly at their own home (assuming Fleet was the one who called). Therefore I'm torn about whether the call was really on purpose or not. Also, who just continues with a party after witnessing something that messed up? Wouldn't you tell the kids' parents or whoever & address it immediately? Doesn't sound like that's what happened.

The ones who REALLY effed up were the 911 responders who just allowed Susan Stine or whoever to shoo them away at the door. Even if it was an accident, that doesn't seem like proper protocol. Again, it looks like a case of rich people getting away with something poor folks wouldn't.

Hello, I called 911 by accident one time, and even though I assured the Dispatcher all was well, the Police showed up anyway, and within a very short time. My husband answered the door, and told them all was well, but they politely asked if they could step inside and physically see me, which he allowed them to do. I have never heard of calling 911 and the police not going in to see if it was really an inadvertently made call or not. JMO. Thanks, Katt

 

[UKGuy]

Hello, I called 911 by accident one time, and even though I assured the Dispatcher all was well, the Police showed up anyway, and within a very short time. My husband answered the door, and told them all was well, but they politely asked if they could step inside and physically see me, which he allowed them to do. I have never heard of calling 911 and the police not going in to see if it was really an inadvertently made call or not. JMO. Thanks, Katt

katsrfun,
Yes, many members have made the same observation, i.e. police not entering and confirming, just as baffling is it was Susan Stine who answered the door, not Patsy or John !

Which suggests Patsy and John were busy dealing with something they regarded as more important?

.

 

[sk716]

Hi all! It's been a long time, but life sometimes gets in the way of online sleuthing. There's a theory that I've had for years, and no one seems to touch on it. I'd like to raise the issue again here, as the 23rd is the date that I believe "the thing" happened that is the motive for why JonBenet was murdered. I've read the books, but again, it's glossed over, as if "there's nothing to see here." I believe Patsy is responsible, and it was premeditated.
What day did Patsy Ramsey's father go back home, instead of staying for Christmas at the Ramsey's?

Edited to add: Don Paugh left the morning of the 24th. My theory is that JonBenet was molested on the 23rd, with JB possibly saying something, or the molestation was interrupted by White. 9/11 is called, and for some reason it wasn't reported that night. Paugh leaves early the next morning.

I agree to a point. I think that Don Paugh was the abuser but I think that the molestation and murder were separate things as weird as it sounds. I think some kind of confrontation broke out at the party on the 23rd and someone attempted to call the police to break up whatever "domestic dispute" had broken out. I think only three or four people who were in the house at that time had any idea what had happened: Patsy, John, and Susan Stein for certain. From what I have read about Fleet White, I don't think he knew what was going on in the house, he doesn't strike me as someone who would actively participate in a cover up. I think he figured it out in the following days.

Stein barred the police from coming in on party night. John and Patsy were unavailable, Patsy probably in hysterics because her abuser was now abusing her favorite child. Clearly, Stein wanted to make sure that the police did not see Patsy and John at that time it would have raised way too many questions. Patsy's obsession with appearances would have kept her from reporting her father as an abuser and wanting to keep it all quiet. I think it's probable that he molested Burke as well but that's a separate conversation. Burke had probably aged up too much to fit his preference anymore. Six and nine year olds aren't in therapy unless some bad stuff went down.

For the record, I think Burke accidentally killed his sister and I don't think he has any memory of having done so. Patsy would have wanted it covered up to keep her father from being outed as a pedophile and herself as a victim that didn't protect her own child. Had anyone other than Burke caused her head injury, they would have insisted that the attacker was the molester. Their son had to be protected. I suspect that it was Patsy that finished the job, though.