Why BOTH Garrote & Head Bash?

[Anyhoo]

BBM. JR does make a very good point. I doubt he would have said this if he was the one who was clever enough to pull the chair back. If he was the one who planned the staging, I think he would have stuck to the intruder came in the window theory and not mentioned the chair.

Do we even know there was a chair? Nobody else mentioned the chair besides him, so I question if it was even there and if it was there, was it blocking the door like he said? I think JR had an ulterior motive for bringing the chair into the conversation.

 

[questfortrue]

Do we even know there was a chair? Nobody else mentioned the chair besides him, so I question if it was even there and if it was there, was it blocking the door like he said? I think JR had an ulterior motive for bringing the chair into the conversation.

Some nagging thoughts about the staging and the questions concerning what JR knew and when. Am in agreement that BR, no matter what his role, was not involved in the staging. I am classifying the staging as the addition of the paintbrush to simulate a garrote (or to mask something about the strangulation?) the washing of JB’s body, the change of clothes (size 12 panties, perhaps the long underwear too - no-one ever found the pink pajama bottoms) the RN and the disposal of evidence.

As to JR’s connection in the staging of the crime, of course we heard about the Israeli shirt fibers in the panties. We also know about PR’s fibers and the usage of items from her paint tote. (The pesky fibers have always led me to believe no one had yet gone to bed.) But there is some behavior which indicates to me JR was a lot more detail oriented in “clean-up” vs. PR. Consider that PR had housekeepers, yet the home, in the areas people didn’t see, was a mess. Numerous comments from HK’s plus PR’s own mother about PR’s housekeeping. And PR said that JR was relatively neat. So the behavior that I’d point to was attention to detail and a more meticulous capacity for “cleaning” of a crime scene. Add to the WC staging that someone also vacuumed around JB’s bed, took time to draft an RN, and it just appears, imo, it took two of them to do justice to masking and destroying of evidence.

JR admitted in an interview he had been in the basement at least 2 (maybe 3) times before her body was “discovered”. The third time was inferred by JK because FW and the detective were in the basement as early as 6:15/6:30 and did not notice a chair and boxes in front of the train room as JR relayed he discovered (between 7:30-8:00 am). JK seemed to think that visit with the chair info was either an embellishment not backed up by facts, or JR was in the basement prior to the 911 call.

Another piece of the puzzle about what JR knew and when: He had the top lawyer at H law firm arranged for himself sometime before sunset on the 26th. (IDK if PR’s attorney had been hired at the same time or not.) So, it seems, imo, almost too quick/efficient to put the legal team in place if he was still figuring things out that morning. His legal team jumped into action as though their tails were on fire, calling up FW that afternoon. Yes, the RN was ridiculous, but if they’d been up most the night, and he only glanced at the first page, or trusted PR to put in the note what he advised, it may not have occurred to him how fake the whole note sounded. Later, both of them distanced themselves from the RN. I don’t believe for a minute he and PR didn’t have a private conversation before LE and the friends arrived. Just my “nagging” thoughts about this and all of this, moo, MHO, etc.

 

[UKGuy]

Do we even know there was a chair? Nobody else mentioned the chair besides him, so I question if it was even there and if it was there, was it blocking the door like he said? I think JR had an ulterior motive for bringing the chair into the conversation.

Anyhoo,
Chair, suitcase, photographs, partially opened gifts, anything else thats out of place?


.

 

[MyBelle]

Do we even know there was a chair? Nobody else mentioned the chair besides him, so I question if it was even there and if it was there, was it blocking the door like he said? I think JR had an ulterior motive for bringing the chair into the conversation.

It's pretty clear Smit believes there was a chair and that's why he questioned him about it. There was no ulterior motive for John Ramsey to point it out. If John Ramsey wanted Smit to believe the intruder entered through the window, he wouldn't have mentioned the chair at all, imo. Instead, he pointed out that it was intentionally placed there as in "staging."

 

[Linda7NJ]

I do not agree with this scenario. IMO JR knew about the body before he supposedly discovered it. He knew about the body before the 911 call. He was not uninvolved in the murder. You and others keep wanting to pin this all on PR and give JR a skate. I 100% disagree with that. Said for the hundredth time.

For the record, I'm open to both.


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[Linda7NJ]

Do we even know there was a chair? Nobody else mentioned the chair besides him, so I question if it was even there and if it was there, was it blocking the door like he said? I think JR had an ulterior motive for bringing the chair into the conversation.

Read the links I provided ...


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[gramcracker]

I am doing what Linda7NJ suggested: reading BlueCrab's 1000 posts in the JBR forum, starting with the oldest ones and working forward. so far, s/he is hitting the JAR angle pretty hard. waiting to see if that changes, and why. but, yes, BC sounds like a well-informed poster

 

[Linda7NJ]

I am doing what Linda7NJ suggested: reading BlueCrab's 1000 posts in the JBR forum, starting with the oldest ones and working forward. so far, s/he is hitting the JAR angle pretty hard. waiting to see if that changes, and why. but, yes, BC sounds like a well-informed poster

I read the other way, from most recent back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Anyhoo]

Some nagging thoughts about the staging and the questions concerning what JR knew and when. Am in agreement that BR, no matter what his role, was not involved in the staging. I am classifying the staging as the addition of the paintbrush to simulate a garrote (or to mask something about the strangulation?) the washing of JB’s body, the change of clothes (size 12 panties, perhaps the long underwear too - no-one ever found the pink pajama bottoms) the RN and the disposal of evidence.

As to JR’s connection in the staging of the crime, of course we heard about the Israeli shirt fibers in the panties. We also know about PR’s fibers and the usage of items from her paint tote. (The pesky fibers have always led me to believe no one had yet gone to bed.) But there is some behavior which indicates to me JR was a lot more detail oriented in “clean-up” vs. PR. Consider that PR had housekeepers, yet the home, in the areas people didn’t see, was a mess. Numerous comments from HK’s plus PR’s own mother about PR’s housekeeping. And PR said that JR was relatively neat. So the behavior that I’d point to was attention to detail and a more meticulous capacity for “cleaning” of a crime scene. Add to the WC staging that someone also vacuumed around JB’s bed, took time to draft an RN, and it just appears, imo, it took two of them to do justice to masking and destroying of evidence.

JR admitted in an interview he had been in the basement at least 2 (maybe 3) times before her body was “discovered”. The third time was inferred by JK because FW and the detective were in the basement as early as 6:15/6:30 and did not notice a chair and boxes in front of the train room as JR relayed he discovered (between 7:30-8:00 am). JK seemed to think that visit with the chair info was either an embellishment not backed up by facts, or JR was in the basement prior to the 911 call.

Another piece of the puzzle about what JR knew and when: He had the top lawyer at H law firm arranged for himself sometime before sunset on the 26th. (IDK if PR’s attorney had been hired at the same time or not.) So, it seems, imo, almost too quick/efficient to put the legal team in place if he was still figuring things out that morning. His legal team jumped into action as though their tails were on fire, calling up FW that afternoon. Yes, the RN was ridiculous, but if they’d been up most the night, and he only glanced at the first page, or trusted PR to put in the note what he advised, it may not have occurred to him how fake the whole note sounded. Later, both of them distanced themselves from the RN. I don’t believe for a minute he and PR didn’t have a private conversation before LE and the friends arrived. Just my “nagging” thoughts about this and all of this, moo, MHO, etc.

I agree with most of what you said and want to add that I think there is a very significant reason why JR's lawyers urgently contacted FW so early that could shed light on the entire murder. Obviously JR was very worried about something FW had seen or heard while he was with JR on the morning of the 26th. JR felt as if FW could make trouble for him legally and the lawyers were sent to make sure he didn't talk about whatever it was causing the concern.

 

[DeDee]

I do not agree with this scenario. IMO JR knew about the body before he supposedly discovered it. He knew about the body before the 911 call. He was not uninvolved in the murder. You and others keep wanting to pin this all on PR and give JR a skate. I 100% disagree with that. Said for the hundredth time.

Repeating your favorite POI a thousand times will not necessarily make it become a fact for the rest of us.

ATT, I feel JR figured it out to be Patsy as the day rolled along and the day became weeks but, then again, it may have been too painful for him to go there with his thoughts. JR suffered from [possibly undiagnosed] PTSD from the death of Beth. His icy veneer was mistaken as pride that was formed to protect the traumatized father.

Two high ranking LEOs affiliated with the JBR murder wrote books about the crime and neither one of them, ST nor JK, pointed an accusatory finger at JR.

ST was adamant that Patsy was "good for this".


And the beat goes on...

 

[DeDee]

I agree with most of what you said and want to add that I think there is a very significant reason why JR's lawyers urgently contacted FW so early that could shed light on the entire murder. Obviously JR was very worried about something FW had seen or heard while he was with JR on the morning of the 26th. JR felt as if FW could make trouble for him legally and the lawyers were sent to make sure he didn't talk about whatever it was causing the concern.

I am not so sure JR was worried about what FW might say. It is my understanding that in FWs GJ testimony, he did not reveal pertinent incriminating information re: JR bc he does not know and did not see anything incriminating. Especially when viewed with hindsight, it is doubtful FW knew or saw anything that we do not already know, too, but since GJ testimony is secret, none of us really knows and FW isn't talking.

However, from what I learned through the years, Mr. White would not back down nor be bullied by a bunch of fat cat lawyers who came visiting about the untimely death of his friend's 6yo little girl.

On Dec. 26, FW realized the Rs would attempt to implicate him, and possibly his wife, in the death of JonBenet. Wishing I could read the notes FW took on that mournful day.

 

[dodie20]

I am not so sure JR was worried about what FW might say. It is my understanding that in FWs GJ testimony, he did not reveal pertinent incriminating information re: JR bc he does not know and did not see anything incriminating. Especially when viewed with hindsight, it is doubtful FW knew or saw anything that we do not already know, too, but since GJ testimony is secret, none of us really knows and FW isn't talking.

However, from what I learned through the years, Mr. White would not back down nor be bullied by a bunch of fat cat lawyers who came visiting about the untimely death of his friend's 6yo little girl.

On Dec. 26, FW realized the Rs would attempt to implicate him, and possibly his wife, in the death of JonBenet. Wishing I could read the notes FW took on that mournful day.

I've thought that maybe JR knew there was something that FW might possibly have noticed and was making sure that either he didn't see it, or if he did, go ahead and get it out in the open, so he could figure out how to refute it.

 

[Anyhoo]

I've thought that maybe JR knew there was something that FW might possibly have noticed and was making sure that either he didn't see it, or if he did, go ahead and get it out in the open, so he could figure out how to refute it.

I agree that somehow JR was vulnerable to FW from the morning of 12-26 and it could have been just what you say. It shows JR has something to hide.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree that somehow JR was vulnerable to FW from the morning of 12-26 and it could have been just what you say. It shows JR has something to hide.

Anyhoo,
BBM: Exactly. He was involved and when questioned he offers ridiculous explanations, PR is much more subtle and nuanced with her I forget, Oh I'm sure she bathed and changed her underwear etc. JR offers up rational considerations.

Whats is uncertain is whether LS is playing the dummy to the ventriliquist, as his pension just might be dependent on a brown envelope?

.

 

[UKGuy]

I am not so sure JR was worried about what FW might say. It is my understanding that in FWs GJ testimony, he did not reveal pertinent incriminating information re: JR bc he does not know and did not see anything incriminating. Especially when viewed with hindsight, it is doubtful FW knew or saw anything that we do not already know, too, but since GJ testimony is secret, none of us really knows and FW isn't talking.

However, from what I learned through the years, Mr. White would not back down nor be bullied by a bunch of fat cat lawyers who came visiting about the untimely death of his friend's 6yo little girl.

On Dec. 26, FW realized the Rs would attempt to implicate him, and possibly his wife, in the death of JonBenet. Wishing I could read the notes FW took on that mournful day.

DeDee,
FW does know stuff we do not know. JonBenet played with his daughter, FW honorably gave JonBenet a change of underwear, possibly unaware of the ongoing dynamics.

FW is one of the few individuals to have direct intimate contact with all the Ramseys. He spoke with BR on the 26th December, he spoke with JonBenet on numerous occasions, so he has a feel for things nobody else can replicate, other than possibly the Stines?

JR likely knows that FW is the one person who knows whether what he says is fact or fiction?


.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

No, you are not reading me right. The absolute fame was a side benefit that her personality hoped for. There is never any bad attention for the NPD. Money was never the motive. She was a wealthy millionaire's wife.

The RN and garrote were two things that really set this unsolved case aside in its own class of uniqueness. It was the media sharing ample access to beauty pageant competitions and photos from glamour shots of JBR, that fueled national, albeit international, interest. Who the he!! would viciously assault then murder this lovely child?

Yes, the crime was premed. Furthermore, I think this crime was long, as in months, in the planning. Moreover, I believe that, at some point, PR knew the voluminous amount of photos and videos would be famous one day and would become advantageous, while on her way, to capturing the title of "America's Princess" for her tiny daughter, during the grieving parent stage.

This was all about Patsy while in her own mind she was convinced this must occur for her own self-seeking, self-serving purpose(s). PRs ovarian cancer was a death sentence. The finest of med care is another benefit of being wealthy. PR living 10 years, after remission, is double the norm of 5.

Intentionally and on purpose, JonBenet would not live to see her mother die when she was 16yo bc her daughter would die on Christmas Day 1996.


OMO

I don't know how Patsy could have known the case would get the attention it did. Most Americans had never heard of pageants, so how could she have known the reaction it would generate? Perhaps Patsy did think at one point (not saying she planned for months, but maybe when they were waiting for the call) that the case will probably get national coverage, but I definitely think it exceeded her expectations.

Although I remember in the newsletter, Patsy wrote that she and a friend were on camera for a few seconds during one of the morning shows. She seemed to think it was a big enough deal to mention it. So I suppose even being on CNN a few times would have been huge for Patsy. Another thing is, if Patsy did kill JonBenet for attention, perhaps it was more for the attention they would get from people who knew them personally, than from the entire country?

I don't know if it was planned for months, but I could see Patsy deciding to add the ransom note and other aspects to the case to make it more sensational. Whether that was for the media, people who knew them, the police, or all three, who knows.

 

[DeDee]

Well, the first clue for knowing whether or not Patsy would be aware of the possible media frenzy would be to look at her background to discover she was a journalism major in college. She knew what it took to make good news copy. Also, she enjoyed literature. Patsy was noted for performing a dramatic reading in the Miss America pageant.

In 1996, prior to the death, Patsy and John had at least four articles printed in media, with their photographs and quotes, about their individual successes. Patsy was well aware of what garnered the media's attention.

There was a drop down home theatre for movie viewing in their master suite. John Andrews Ramsey described his step-mother as being "flashy". Patsy did not live in a shell. She was gregarious. Patsy was equipped to know, or at least to suspect, how sensational the complex crime would become.

Patsy may have considered it costing them perhaps a cool million to keep her out of prison. Being multi-millionaires, they had well over a million in assets. I don't think she anticipated losing as much as they did. Their defense cost them almost everything they possessed.

John's successful business had gone worldwide, according to what Patsy wrote in the Christmas letters. An unusual death by garrote of a gorgeous six-year-old millionaire's daughter would garner international media attention. Toss in a skull fracture, acute sexual assault and previous sexual abuse. The case has everything: youth, beauty, glamor, mystery, wealth, sex, lies, and videotapes. It has everything that makes good media copy. Good copy makes sells profitable.

As difficult as this may be to comprehend of the human's heart and soul, with the information I currently possess, IMMHO, Patsy began planning the murder as early as the Fall of 1996 when she insisted on purchasing a jacket identical to the one Priscilla White owned but eventually settled for one very similar.

Then, Patsy had the audacity to try incriminating PW with the murder jacket by saying it could have been Priscilla's jacket that she was wearing in the photographs taken at the White's and shown to her during her police interviews.

During the fall, Patsy really concentrates on creating a champion crown winner of JonBenét by scheduling photo shoots, lessons and pageants. By Christmas, JonBenét held titles as Little Miss Colorado and Little Miss Christmas.

The all-important and revealing size 12s Bloomies were purchased in November.

Undetermined date for purchase of the gold ID bracelet inscribed with JBs death date. JBR received on December 23, 1996.

Undetermined date of order of the My Twinn doll received on Christmas Day.

The white burial dress was purchased in November.

The tape and nylon cord were purchased in December.

There was a rough draft of the RN.

The victim's headstone is dated December 25, 1996.

What others may describe as a highly unorganized, perhaps spur of the moment, crime scene, I see as a carefully orchestrated premeditated murder, of a young molested daughter, that was always intended to occur on Christmas Day in exactly the manner it unfolded, beginning with pineapple happiness.

The reason for rejecting JR as being placed with JonBenét when the head bash occurred by Patsy is because I do believe that would be far too much shock and awe for John to bear going forward, as he did, especially when considering the trauma he experienced in losing Beth. John would have collapsed if his tiny daughter dropped at his feet when her head cracked from the bash. Wouldn't he?

OMO

 

[Scoobysnack]

I am doing what Linda7NJ suggested: reading BlueCrab's 1000 posts in the JBR forum, starting with the oldest ones and working forward. so far, s/he is hitting the JAR angle pretty hard. waiting to see if that changes, and why. but, yes, BC sounds like a well-informed poster

I have to do this too...

 

[bettybaby00]

Well, the first clue for knowing whether or not Patsy would be aware of the possible media frenzy would be to look at her background to discover she was a journalism major in college. She knew what it took to make good news copy. Also, she enjoyed literature. Patsy was noted for performing a dramatic reading in the Miss America pageant.

In 1996, prior to the death, Patsy and John had at least four articles printed in media, with their photographs and quotes, about their individual successes. Patsy was well aware of what garnered the media's attention.

There was a drop down home theatre for movie viewing in their master suite. John Andrews Ramsey described his step-mother as being "flashy". Patsy did not live in a shell. She was gregarious. Patsy was equipped to know, or at least to suspect, how sensational the complex crime would become.

Patsy may have considered it costing them perhaps a cool million to keep her out of prison. Being multi-millionaires, they had well over a million in assets. I don't think she anticipated losing as much as they did. Their defense cost them almost everything they possessed.

John's successful business had gone worldwide, according to what Patsy wrote in the Christmas letters. An unusual death by garrote of a gorgeous six-year-old millionaire's daughter would garner international media attention. Toss in a skull fracture, acute sexual assault and previous sexual abuse. The case has everything: youth, beauty, glamor, mystery, wealth, sex, lies, and videotapes. It has everything that makes good media copy. Good copy makes sells profitable.

As difficult as this may be to comprehend of the human's heart and soul, with the information I currently possess, IMMHO, Patsy began planning the murder as early as the Fall of 1996 when she insisted on purchasing a jacket identical to the one Priscilla White owned but eventually settled for one very similar.

Then, Patsy had the audacity to try incriminating PW with the murder jacket by saying it could have been Priscilla's jacket that she was wearing in the photographs taken at the White's and shown to her during her police interviews.

During the fall, Patsy really concentrates on creating a champion crown winner of JonBenét by scheduling photo shoots, lessons and pageants. By Christmas, JonBenét held titles as Little Miss Colorado and Little Miss Christmas.

The all-important and revealing size 12s Bloomies were purchased in November.

Undetermined date for purchase of the gold ID bracelet inscribed with JBs death date. JBR received on December 23, 1996.

Undetermined date of order of the My Twinn doll received on Christmas Day.

The white burial dress was purchased in November.

The tape and nylon cord were purchased in December.

There was a rough draft of the RN.

The victim's headstone is dated December 25, 1996.

What others may describe as a highly unorganized, perhaps spur of the moment, crime scene, I see as a carefully orchestrated premeditated murder, of a young molested daughter, that was always intended to occur on Christmas Day in exactly the manner it unfolded, beginning with pineapple happiness.

The reason for rejecting JR as being placed with JonBenét when the head bash occurred by Patsy is because I do believe that would be far too much shock and awe for John to bear going forward, as he did, especially when considering the trauma he experienced in losing Beth. John would have collapsed if his tiny daughter dropped at his feet when her head cracked from the bash. Wouldn't he?

OMO

It's all creepy as hell.

Idk if it's premeditation though. Maybe my mind just can't wrap around such a horrific concept either ???!!!!!

 

[bettybaby00]

DeDee,
FW does know stuff we do not know. JonBenet played with his daughter, FW honorably gave JonBenet a change of underwear, possibly unaware of the ongoing dynamics.

FW is one of the few individuals to have direct intimate contact with all the Ramseys. He spoke with BR on the 26th December, he spoke with JonBenet on numerous occasions, so he has a feel for things nobody else can replicate, other than possibly the Stines?

JR likely knows that FW is the one person who knows whether what he says is fact or fiction?


.

Yes *cheer*

Their letters to the people of CO are heartbreaking. Sometimes I think they were the only ones to really care .( of the crazy cast of characters.