Why was JonBenet's body not removed from the house?

[eileenhawkeye]

I can understand why John and Patsy did not remove JonBenet's body from the house, if they were involved in her death. JonBenet was still their daughter, and they had that obvious parent-child connection with her. There was no way that they were going to dump her body in the Colorado wilderness, for it to get taken over by animals and maggots, and possibly never found. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a conversation that went on in their house during 12/25-12/26.


However, I cannot understand why an intruder would not remove JonBenet's body from the house, when she was alive or when she was dead. If he took her from her bedroom, the front door is closer than the basement window, which was, according to IDI theories, his entrance and exit-point. Why didn't he just go out the front door, especially if he had apparently used a stun gun on her? Now, IDI's say that JonBenet was killed in the basement, but she wasn't removed from the house because she couldn't fit in the suitcase. Once again, I ask, why didn't the intruder carry her body out the front door? IDI's say: He was nervous that he would be caught and wanted to get out of there as soon as possible. Um, anyone who sneaks into a huge house to kidnap a 6-year-old who they then murder in the basement, is obviously a bit of risk taker, and would probably love to get one floor closer to the parents and sibling.

 

[claudicici]

well,thinking as IDI I would say if the intruder hated JR so much ,as many claim becomes apparent in the Ransom note maybe he/she wanted him to see her like that?

 

[BBB167893]

I can understand why John and Patsy did not remove JonBenet's body from the house, if they were involved in her death. JonBenet was still their daughter, and they had that obvious parent-child connection with her. There was no way that they were going to dump her body in the Colorado wilderness, for it to get taken over by animals and maggots, and possibly never found. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a conversation that went on in their house during 12/25-12/26.


However, I cannot understand why an intruder would not remove JonBenet's body from the house, when she was alive or when she was dead. If he took her from her bedroom, the front door is closer than the basement window, which was, according to IDI theories, his entrance and exit-point. Why didn't he just go out the front door, especially if he had apparently used a stun gun on her? Now, IDI's say that JonBenet was killed in the basement, but she wasn't removed from the house because she couldn't fit in the suitcase. Once again, I ask, why didn't the intruder carry her body out the front door? IDI's say: He was nervous that he would be caught and wanted to get out of there as soon as possible. Um, anyone who sneaks into a huge house to kidnap a 6-year-old who they then murder in the basement, is obviously a bit of risk taker, and would probably love to get one floor closer to the parents and sibling.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: That's a five-clapper right there!

I can understand why John and Patsy did not remove JonBenet's body from the house, if they were involved in her death. JonBenet was still their daughter, and they had that obvious parent-child connection with her. There was no way that they were going to dump her body in the Colorado wilderness, for it to get taken over by animals and maggots, and possibly never found. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a conversation that went on in their house during 12/25-12/26.

You've been peeking at my notes again!

 

[winterhawk]

"well,thinking as IDI I would say if the intruder hated JR so much ,as many claim becomes apparent in the Ransom note maybe he/she wanted him to see her like that?"

He could have sent pictures or posted jpgs on the internet. Why hang around and risk getting caught in the house?

 

[joeskidbeck]

I agree the Ramseys would not have wanted to leave Jonbenet's body outside where all kinds of bad things would happen but there is this small part of me that says they absolutely would have if it meant getting away with this crime, especially if they thought she would have been found rather quickly. I believe there are probably two reasons they didn't try it: 1- having to leave the house in the middle of the night and risking beeing seen by neighbors and 2- no time.

 

[DeeDee249]

I can understand why John and Patsy did not remove JonBenet's body from the house, if they were involved in her death. JonBenet was still their daughter, and they had that obvious parent-child connection with her. There was no way that they were going to dump her body in the Colorado wilderness, for it to get taken over by animals and maggots, and possibly never found. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a conversation that went on in their house during 12/25-12/26.


However, I cannot understand why an intruder would not remove JonBenet's body from the house, when she was alive or when she was dead. If he took her from her bedroom, the front door is closer than the basement window, which was, according to IDI theories, his entrance and exit-point. Why didn't he just go out the front door, especially if he had apparently used a stun gun on her? Now, IDI's say that JonBenet was killed in the basement, but she wasn't removed from the house because she couldn't fit in the suitcase. Once again, I ask, why didn't the intruder carry her body out the front door? IDI's say: He was nervous that he would be caught and wanted to get out of there as soon as possible. Um, anyone who sneaks into a huge house to kidnap a 6-year-old who they then murder in the basement, is obviously a bit of risk taker, and would probably love to get one floor closer to the parents and sibling.

ITA. She would have been found, if they dumped her if cadaver dogs were brought in, or if they "searched" the area (like JR "searched" the house"). But they wouldn't have liked what they found. No open coffin/blonde curls/tiara/frilly pageant dress dead little princess. Instead, dreadful closed tiny coffin. Is this what Patsy felt was so important that she wrote "you will be denied her remains for proper burial"? You bet. That funeral was very important to Patsy.

The truth is that as a kidnap victim/prize, JB was valuable dead OR alive. Ransom would be paid regardless.

 

[CathyR]

I see the note as being an effort to cover up the crime not that the killer really wanted the money.

To cover up the crime the note delays a murder investigation.

A missing child is looked for in every nook and cranny in the house around the house in the neighborhood. After all she could have just wandered off.

A ransom note tells people don't look as she is with me. When looking does happen it is looking for points of entry how the kidnapper got in. The wine cellar didn't seem important to people looking for points of entry even a cursory look would have noticed how dark the room is and the person would assume no windows here forget this room. The attention would have been drawn up and away from the floor to anyone looking for windows or other types of entry.

Once the body leaves the house any perp takes a bigger risk of being seen when body is dumped. They also risk leaving more forensic clues like fibers from their car. Johns car fibers are easy to explain. She rode in it on the way home fibers could be anywhere on her and she could have transferred them herself. Started out on hair rubbed off on nightgown while sleeping. All the fiber evidence used in the RDI theories from her home, parents, etc. would be expected to be found on her. They would be less damming and more likely gone if her body was dumped remotely. IMO it serves the parents to get her out of the house more than it serves an intruder.

What gives me pause is the rope. I have never bought rope that wasn't packaged in at least a 10 foot piece. Even rope for a clothes line is at least 10 ft long. How many feet of rope was found along with her body? I bet one end had been cut and some of the rope is missing. Not in their house, boat, or second house was any of this rope found. Why would police look for additional pieces of the rope if it was complete with factory sealed ends to prevent ravel present.

If IDI then they took it with them if RDI then they had to leave the house and dispose of it somewhere and at sometime.

 

[wonderllama]

If you had spent years making a name for yourself and becoming a self-made millionaire and your wife beating cancer and being a former beauty queen....you know, you'd kind of think you had it all...and I suspect the sudden fear of losing all that would be incredible.

So incredible that you would instinctively do whatever you could to NOT lose it.

 

[DeeDee249]

The garrote on JB wasn't rope. It was nylon cord. It was sold in small packages, and as a matter of fact, LE found the EXACT cord for sale in TWO LOCAL stores: McGuckins's Hardware and an Army-Navy store. Take another look at that garrote. This was THIN nylon flat weave cord. Not rope.
Do not get confused (the RST THRIVES on confusion) by the "rope fibers" or hemp rope mentioned in the case as having been found in "an adjoining room" (actually JAR's room). There was rope in the house, the family were sailors, they owned a boat. ALL boat owners have rope and know how to tie a knot. BR was a Boy Scout- he knew how to tie knots.
This rope was NOT the garrote. The garrote was thin nylon cord.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

ITA. She would have been found, if they dumped her if cadaver dogs were brought in, or if they "searched" the area (like JR "searched" the house"). But they wouldn't have liked what they found. No open coffin/blonde curls/tiara/frilly pageant dress dead little princess. Instead, dreadful closed tiny coffin. Is this what Patsy felt was so important that she wrote "you will be denied her remains for proper burial"? You bet. That funeral was very important to Patsy.

The truth is that as a kidnap victim/prize, JB was valuable dead OR alive. Ransom would be paid regardless.

In the Kyron Horman case, many people believe that he was killed by his stepmom and that she dumped his body somewhere in the immediate area. She didn't have time to get too far of a distance from the abduction site (his school) just like the Ramseys wouldn't have had time to drive hundreds of miles away. In both cases, the area becomes rural very quickly, and there are many places to dump a body. They've been searching for Kyron for ten months now and they still haven't found him, so if the Ramseys had dumped JonBenet's body out in the Colorado wilderness, there's a good chance LE would still be looking for her, months and even years later. Danielle Van Dam's body was out in the elements for a month, and her body had been destroyed (for lack of a better word). So there was a very short period of time that JBR would have to be found in to still have the open-casket funeral, and the R's were not going to take the risk that LE would not find her in time.

 

[DeeDee249]

In the Kyron Horman case, many people believe that he was killed by his stepmom and that she dumped his body somewhere in the immediate area. She didn't have time to get too far of a distance from the abduction site (his school) just like the Ramseys wouldn't have had time to drive hundreds of miles away. In both cases, the area becomes rural very quickly, and there are many places to dump a body. They've been searching for Kyron for ten months now and they still haven't found him, so if the Ramseys had dumped JonBenet's body out in the Colorado wilderness, there's a good chance LE would still be looking for her, months and even years later. Danielle Van Dam's body was out in the elements for a month, and her body had been destroyed (for lack of a better word). So there was a very short period of time that JBR would have to be found in to still have the open-casket funeral, and the R's were not going to take the risk that LE would not find her in time.

My point is that the Rs WANTED JB to be found. In the cases you cited, the killers did not want the body found. Had JB's body been dumped by an actual intruder/kidnapper, she may very well have ended up as the poor kids in the cases you cited.
If the Rs themselves had dumped her outside, she would have been found, either because they'd have put her body in a more conspicuous place or they'd have "searched" for her (and "found" her) themselves. And between the two, I'd bet on them the latter.

 

[CathyR]

Sorry didn't mean to confuse anyone by calling it rope. Isn't this type of cord sold as clothesline? My question is how many feet of this cord is left at crime scene? Are both ends the way a factory makes it with sealed ends? Is it a complete piece of cord? If not then where is the rest? What was it cut with? If parents disposed of it knowing it could link them to murder they most likely disposed of other crime scene evidence too. What else is missing or can not be tied to home. The duct tape. The exact brand used on JBR was not the same brand used on other items in home like what was used to seal boxes seen in photographs. Framed art work in the home had the same brand but not from the same roll.
That is two items that had to be taken out of home. Cord and tape. It does not prove an IDI or an RDI but it could be important to find those items to help point the way to either one.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Cathy, here is an excellent thread with opinions on how these items could have been removed from the ramsey home:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46911&highlight=pam+paugh

 

[CathyR]

Since the police did not do an excellent job of controlling the crime scene from the moment they got there. ANYTHING is possible. Patsy stuffing a piece of cord in her coat pocket before the police got there. The IDI being part of the people invited over who goes around cleaning up crime scene evidence and planting additional clues to point to parents. No one knows and it makes the facts even harder to prove regardless of who did it. The police aided the perp more than they have aided JB in the crucial first days of the investigation.

To quote a favorite TV Judge Judy "Shouda, Woulda, Coulda is the motto for the police to use.

I guess I am wanting just like every one else a clue that is so solid that it can not be denied. If it existed then this case would be filed under solved and not haunting so many of us so many years later.

 

[madeleine]

I guess I am wanting just like every one else a clue that is so solid that it can not be denied. If it existed then this case would be filed under solved and not haunting so many of us so many years later.

IMO their biggest mistake was to think they can win this with "PR wrote the note".huge mistake since this isn't exact science and it can be misinterpreted however someone wants.happened.

they had much better chances with trying to prove prior abuse IMO.but no,they gave JR and BR the pass......:loser: fools!!!!IMO

 

[madeleine]

let's say a Ramsey or the intruder will be caught one day but pleads not guilty.
you will never be able to prove it BEYOND a reasonable doubt cause of sloppy police work ,never.this case is gold for every defence lawyer out there.IMO
that's why IMO this case needs a confessions,RDI,IDI,doesn't matter.,

 

[BBB167893]

I see the note as being an effort to cover up the crime not that the killer really wanted the money.

To cover up the crime the note delays a murder investigation.

A missing child is looked for in every nook and cranny in the house around the house in the neighborhood. After all she could have just wandered off.

A ransom note tells people don't look as she is with me.

I think you're onto it, CathyR!

IMO it serves the parents to get her out of the house more than it serves an intruder.

Even if it did, it's easy to see why they didn't.

What gives me pause is the rope. I have never bought rope that wasn't packaged in at least a 10 foot piece. Even rope for a clothes line is at least 10 ft long. How many feet of rope was found along with her body? I bet one end had been cut and some of the rope is missing. Not in their house, boat, or second house was any of this rope found. Why would police look for additional pieces of the rope if it was complete with factory sealed ends to prevent ravel present.

If RDI then they had to leave the house and dispose of it somewhere and at sometime.

They very well may have. God knows they didn't lack for opportunities. But even then, maybe not. The Army-Navy store in Boulder didn't sell that cord in bundles. They had this big spool that you could just say, "give me five feet" and they'd cut it off for you.

 

[BBB167893]

IMO their biggest mistake was to think they can win this with "PR wrote the note".huge mistake since this isn't exact science and it can be misinterpreted however someone wants.happened.

they had much better chances with trying to prove prior abuse IMO.but no,they gave JR and BR the pass......:loser: fools!!!!IMO

The more I think about it, the more I think you may be right.

 

[freshwater]

Just thinking about my own home - I have a finished basement with a drop ceiling. If I wanted to hide some rope/cord, I would just pop open one of the tiles, reach up, and toss it into the wall. It might not be found for 80 years, if ever. It's impossible for police to search every square millimeter of a house. The Ramseys didn't have my set up, but I think every house has places that could be good hiding spots. Or maybe things were just hidden in the golf bag and then removed from the home that way.

I think back to the Mel Ignatow murder case in (I think) Louisville, KY. I saw it many times on American Justice. He was found not guilty of a murder. A few months later, lo and behold, the new owners of his home pulled up some carpet and found jewelry belonging to the victim and rolls of undeveloped film that, once developed, showed pictures of Ignato committing the very murder he was acquitted of!

 

[DeeDee249]

Sorry didn't mean to confuse anyone by calling it rope. Isn't this type of cord sold as clothesline? My question is how many feet of this cord is left at crime scene? Are both ends the way a factory makes it with sealed ends? Is it a complete piece of cord? If not then where is the rest? What was it cut with? If parents disposed of it knowing it could link them to murder they most likely disposed of other crime scene evidence too. What else is missing or can not be tied to home. The duct tape. The exact brand used on JBR was not the same brand used on other items in home like what was used to seal boxes seen in photographs. Framed art work in the home had the same brand but not from the same roll.
That is two items that had to be taken out of home. Cord and tape. It does not prove an IDI or an RDI but it could be important to find those items to help point the way to either one.

No, it isn't clothesline. Clothesline is usually cotton but can be thick, braided nylon and if you look at a clothesline it is round. The garrote cord is thin, flat nylon. Police HAVE bought identical cord. It isn't unknown what type of cord it is. They KNOW what it is and where it was likely bought. There is a receipt from one of the parents' credit cards indicating purchase of two items matching the cord and tape in price and department section from the local hardware store (McGuckin's) from early December, just weeks before the murder.
The "ROPE" found in JAR's room can be seen in a photo of JB, dressed in country clothes, with the rope at her feet. It is a modeling photo- she looks adorable in her pigtails!
This rope had nothing to do with the garrote cord. It may have had nothing to do with the crime. If the rope was found in JAR's room and hemp fibers were found in JB's bed it isn't hard to figure out how the fibers got there. They are on the rug/floor. JB walks on the rug/floor barefoot and climbs into bed. Voila! Hemp fibers in her bed.
We have to make a clear distinction between THAT rope and the garrote CORD. They are not the same thing. The flat, nylon garrote cord was sold in small packages. Neither one would be a clothesline.