Identified! WI - Clinton, 'River Guy' WhtMale 1207UMWI, 17-20, 'Venom' TShirt, Nov'95 - Carl Junior Isaacs

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Sleuthster's post #9:

He thought the man seemed intoxicated. He saw him fall in the water two or three times. He heard him yelling and screaming about his girlfriend or wife leaving him.
A second witness saw the same man.
She heard him say, “How could she do this to me?” She said the man tried to climb a bank to get out of the creek. He fell back down the hill.
When he saw her, he yelled, “What are you looking at. You’re just like the rest of them.”
He also yelled, “Get out of here and leave me alone.”
The woman last saw him sitting on the creek’s bank.
A third witness also saw a man with the same description. She also said the man was in the middle of the creek.
The man looked at her and yelled, “I’m a fugitive. You’ll read about me in the paper.”
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We assume from the above statements (made a year later after the body was found) that his wife/girlfriend left him, never to come back. We don't necessarily know that for sure. From the statements above we could also assume that she did leave him (or was in the process of leaving him), but he found her and killed her in a drunken rage in the vicinity, which is why she hasn't come forward. She's dead. He now looked at himself as a fugitive because he had just killed her. "You'll read about me in the paper" is a statement more consistent with someone who had just committed a crime, than with a crime that had been committed sometime in the past.

We can also assume that his mother abandoned him, or was going to, not necessarily his wife or girlfriend. Maybe she didn't approve of his musical tastes and finally got fed up with him, as many parents do with their teenagers in the late teens. Maybe they were renting in the area and when they disappeared, the landlord just figured they took off without paying for the overdue/soon due rent. Do most landlords report their tenants as missing? I doubt it. They just move on, keep the deposit and re-rent. Who would associate renters skipping out with a man found a year later? I guess it might also be a clue if he made the statement "You're just like the rest of them" to an older female witness and not a young female witness.

I'm guessing her body may still be in the vicinity of where his body was found. He was running from something at the time and, considering his condition, he couldn't have been running for too long. I think another missing person (female) should also be factored into this case, or, a missing couple.

Since I've heard of no organized search having been conducted in the area after his body was found, maybe one should be?

“How could she do this to me?” could mean, "She left me and made me kill her."

"You’re just like the rest of them." could mean, "It's always the women's fault." I know there are women sleuths out there that KNOW this is how some guys think. Right?

"I’m a fugitive. You’ll read about me in the paper." could mean, "I just killed someone. I'm running from the crime scene, which you'll soon discover."

This is why you can't find this guy wanted in any databases. He isn't in any. You haven't discovered the crime scene yet. Depending on which way he was running and where he was found is the first clue as to where to start to look, the direction he came from.

Does anyone out there agree with me; the only one who can identify him is probably dead, too, nearby?

On a side note: A tube of Carmex was found next to the body. Isn't there a lot number stamped into the bottom edge of the tube that might show where the manufacturer shipped that specific lot of Carmex to, at least the general area?

Take a look at some of the lyrics of Venom's songs, maybe there's a clue there.

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/venom/welcometohell.html#3

Tell me that you love me,
Say you'll never leave,
The more I give the more you take,
The more that you receive,
I got you down beneath me,
Open wide (ha ha),
I'm gonna make you pay for all,
The times you've cheated and lied.
 
Your theory is very good. I was wondering , given the age of the UID, if his mom had kicked him out of the house for some reason-maybe she didn't like something he had done /said and it was the final straw after warning him" If you do (xxxxxx)_ AGAIN, I will kick you out!!!!!! " That would explain the " How could she do this to me!"-he didn't believe she would actually carry through on her threat
 
I dunno. I think he's pretty close, especially to the new sketch. But the jaw, mouth, and general facial structure are all very similar.
 

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rainwater said:
Your theory is very good. I was wondering , given the age of the UID, if his mom had kicked him out of the house for some reason-maybe she didn't like something he had done /said and it was the final straw after warning him" If you do (xxxxxx)_ AGAIN, I will kick you out!!!!!! " That would explain the " How could she do this to me!"-he didn't believe she would actually carry through on her threat
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Now we have to figure out how far from the nearest rental units this area is and how they would have gotten out to this area. I guess it's also plausible that she was not killed in the vicinity and he somehow made his way to this area. Maybe she was found already but LE hasn't made any connection between the two. Lots of scenarios, I guess.
 
Jame's hair is listed as "strawberry-blonde". But it looks much darker in his photo. I can definitely see a resemblance between his photo and the recons- remember, the recons are recons and are not going to look exactly like a photo.
 
http://gazettextra.com/news/2010/apr/25/jo...rouded-mystery/

"The bones were found at 9 a.m. Nov. 26, 1995, near Waite Road and Highway 140 in Bradford Township."

A Google map of the area shows the only houses close to Turtle Creek with decks facing the creek (the nearest house is apprx. 200 feet from the creek through the trees, 300 feet to the opposite riverbank) are on Wyman Rd. and located northwest of the above intersection. One would then assume that the "River Guy" was running east through the creek. So, if there's a potential crime scene, it's west of where he was seen falling down the steep river bank by witnesses. Is the river even visible from these decks? From that line of sight, can one even see someone falling down the steep river bank from that location? Was this the river bank on the opposite side of the river?

https://goo.gl/maps/TN20C

Speaking of the riverbank...

A second witness saw the same man.
She heard him say, “How could she do this to me?” She said the man tried to climb a bank to get out of the creek. He fell back down the hill.
Click to expand...

I wonder if the spot where the "River Guy" allegedly fell was even searched for a wallet? You tumble down a steep riverbank drunk and the odds are you'll lose something. Only one shoe was found with the body. Maybe the other shoe is near the wallet on the riverbank? Assuming he even had a wallet and if the wallet was leather, it'll take 25-50 years to decompose. Maybe both items are still laying there, waiting to be discovered.

I also wonder why none of the witnesses reported this endangered teen/young adult incident to the police at that time? A suspicious person walking along the highway nearby was reported later that night, why not the earlier endangered teen/young adult seen by several witnesses, especially after he yelled he was a fugitive?

Afterthought: This UID was wearing a Venom t-shirt with the words “Welcome to hell” and “Venom 1987”. Another website states he was wearing: Black t-shirt bearing cold (gold?) in color Venom heavy metal rock logo of five-point star encompassing a ram's head. A Venom collector's page shows the original Venom t-shirts that were made in the 1980's.

http://www.venomcollector.com/info2.cfm?info_id=44108

Maybe the company still has records of who they sold this specific t-shirt to in this area of Wisconsin via mail order between 1987 and 1994. Of course it could have been bought locally or secondhand.

Below is a marked 1987 Venom t-shirt. I don't know if it's a duplicate of the one found with the body. It's marked 1987 on the bottom right edge of the outer circle right below the word "To".

I'd also like to know why his skull was cremated but his bones were buried. (scratching my head) The most crucial piece of evidence they had going for them was cremated yet the bones from the body were buried? Interesting. I wonder whose decision that was and why?
 
pleasestandby said:
I'd also like to know why his skull was cremated but his bones were buried. (scratching my head) The most crucial piece of evidence they had going for them was cremated yet the bones from the body were buried? Interesting. I wonder whose decision that was and why?
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If I had to guess, I think that his body was buried first, and the ME held on to his skull in case it was needed for identification purposes. Then after years of no success identifying him, his skull was cremated. I can understand why someone wouldn't want to disturb his grave by putting his skull in with his other remains. I assume that x-rays and reconstructions were done before the skull was cremated, so the skull may have not been needed for identification purposes anymore.
 
Has this young man been suggested?
Matthew Garnes
http://www.nampn.org/cases/garnes_matthew.html
"Missing Since: December 26, 1984 from Tacoma, Pierce County, Washington
Classification: Endangered Missing
Date Of Birth: July 26, 1968
Age: 16
Height: 5'7"
Weight: 135 lbs.
Hair Color: Brown
Eye Color: Hazel
Race: White
Gender: Male
Distinguishing Characteristics: 3 inch scar on right cheek area.
Freckles.
Medical Conditions: Old fractures on upper right foot and right elbow
Clothing: Black leather jacket (Wilson's house leather), sleeveless
black t-shirt (Iron Maiden), jeans (waist size-30), black/maroon/gray scarf,
Nike tennis shoes, size 9 1/2.
Jewelry: Silver chain necklace. "
 
dotr:

No, Matthew Garnes has not been considered previously. And this is a very good find. Matthew's height and weight, and even his shoe size, fit. And his black t-shirt with Iron Maiden is particularly compelling for matching up with JCD's love of heavy metal music (his Venom concert shirt). Thanks.

I would suggest that you (or someone) enter Matthew into NamUs, and the LE agency involved will be contacted and maybe additional information can be entered to tell us more about him.

Even though looking pretty good, there are a few things that count against Matthew as being John "Clinton" Doe (JCD).
1) His age--28. JCD is accepted as being 18 +/- or 17-20-years old when he died in 1994. At 28 in 1994, Matthew would be well beyond being the teenager that JCD is thought to be based on the forensic evidence.
2) He is from Washington, which is well outside of the "iso-area" of Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Michigan where science (SIA) says JCD spent a significant amount of time growing up.
3) Matthew has a couple of broken bones. Two autopsies of JCD revealed no trauma to his bones, including any previously broken and healed bones, like Matthew's broken elbow and foot. Pretty sure that is something the forensic pathologists in the exams (two of them 15 years apart) would not have missed.

While not officially ruled out by Rock County at this point, it is doubtful Matthew is JCD. But again, thank you for your work and keen eyes in finding this possible match for JCD. Please keep searching.

Jack

Jack Friess, Cold Case Analyst
Wisconsin
 
jackfriess said:
dotr:

No, Matthew Garnes has not been considered previously. And this is a very good find. Matthew's height and weight, and even his shoe size, fit. And his black t-shirt with Iron Maiden is particularly compelling for matching up with JCD's love of heavy metal music (his Venom concert shirt). Thanks.

I would suggest that you (or someone) enter Matthew into NamUs, and the LE agency involved will be contacted and maybe additional information can be entered to tell us more about him.

Even though looking pretty good, there are a few things that count against Matthew as being John "Clinton" Doe (JCD).
1) His age--28. JCD is accepted as being 18 +/- or 17-20-years old when he died in 1994. At 28 in 1994, Matthew would be well beyond being the teenager that JCD is thought to be based on the forensic evidence.
2) He is from Washington, which is well outside of the "iso-area" of Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Michigan where science (SIA) says JCD spent a significant amount of time growing up.
3) Matthew has a couple of broken bones. Two autopsies of JCD revealed no trauma to his bones, including any previously broken and healed bones, like Matthew's broken elbow and foot. Pretty sure that is something the forensic pathologists in the exams (two of them 15 years apart) would not have missed.

While not officially ruled out by Rock County at this point, it is doubtful Matthew is JCD. But again, thank you for your work and keen eyes in finding this possible match for JCD. Please keep searching.

Jack

Jack Friess, Cold Case Analyst
Wisconsin
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for the encouragement!
Hoping that other" Namus skilled" posters will make contact as suggested.
 
Just heard of this case on reddit and came to see if there was a thread on it, i hope someone recognises this guy!
 
lindamichelle1 said:
Just heard of this case on reddit and came to see if there was a thread on it, i hope someone recognises this guy!
Click to expand...

http://www.***********/r/washingtondc/comments/2qo03y/the_unidentified_grateful_dead_fan_jason_doe/

Though I didn't get to the Reddit page that you referred to, I read something interesting on another unidentified Grateful Dead fan who was also mentioned on this thread, Jason Doe. To quote the poster:

There was a significant group of "families" that toured. This being groups of people that just followed the dead and set up gypsy style hierarchies. They would take care of each other, vend, provide money and tickets to shows, drugs etc.

It was a very fluid scene. I wonder if he had an affinity to one of these tribes as they were called?

This is fascinating and I am really starting to have some recall around the show. I remember it rained on the 25th...there were great drum circles under the bridges
Click to expand...

It makes me wonder if LE checked under the Turtle Creek bridge where the Clinton John Doe was found? Of course I also wonder if they searched the river bank area where he was last seen stumbling around.
 
The height is off, but this MP is a new addition to Doe Network:
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/3229/0/
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/4801dmky.html
http://www.bgdailynews.com/news/dau...cle_99db2584-d645-50e8-8ae7-01bcd26e6c80.html

The circumstances also seem off, as the MP was looking forward to reuniting with his child's mother while the UID was angry at some unknown female. But I think the MP resembles the most recent sketch of the UID and the MP was a metal aficionado (per the article) with many small tattoos of symbols that could be considered "metal" (pentagram, devils, etc.)
 
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