AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #14

[SkipperKey3]

That was a quote from another poster that I was saying was similar. My scenario was not with someone online, it was someone local. Just sayin'.

Okay. Sorry, I should have replied to the original poster. As for somebody local, there's just no way to tell. In the MT case, I had the feeling it was somebody who just happened to be in town, while others felt it was somebody in her immediate circle. It turned out to be somewhere in between those two ideas. In this case, though, I lean toward thinking it wasn't simply random. It could have been, but it doesn't seem very likely from what we know.

And if local, that doesn't really help identify the motive or target (if, in fact, there was a specific target). From our vantage, there just doesn't seem to be any reason for anybody to want to do such malicious harm to the family. Motive, in this case, is pretty elusive. Could be any number of things.

 

[debirlfan]

Sounds like a super big deal. This is a car that may match something they're looking for it was suddenly found submerged? And it should be trackable by the VIN unless that was ground off somehow.

I hope this is a break.

Perhaps this this is a case of a psychopath like Matthew Hoffman, were the maniac wanted to engage in some savagery against a family he never met, and abduct a girl in the home for his own purposes. But now he's trying to get rid of some evidence?

IMO, it would be a dumb move for the perp to put this car into the river if it was involved. Why? Because police have insisted that they were looking for a different vehicle. Nobody was/is looking for a Monte Carlo. Plus, dumping the car means it could be checked for trace evidence, and even without a plate, it won't take long to trace the VIN.

 

[Loio]

Just off the bat, I don’t know the lingo/ for WS. Sorry.

Has it been mentioned that Jayme may have had a disability? I worked with ASRD children in my former career. Jayme’s posture in her pics is often poor or slouched and the right side of her body in early images of her (per the family FB) appears to have a disability, especially the right hand. I don’t see it as much with her lastest photos which therapy may have helped. Her school portrait is most noticeable. I did also see an image in the mom’s FB of four or five women in Autism Speaks tshirts, looked like a fundraiser, Jayme is in the front. Anyway, just some observations from a medical professional.

Also, if she had a mild disability and this is known to the perp, perhaps they wouldn’t harm her right away? My whodunit is on either someone who followed mom or dad home from the casino after a win (they pay out in cash) or a relative, by marriage or blood.

I try to keep up with the threads and read them at night when they get locked but still... blah blah blah, you guys know.

 

[DocBrew]

When LE came out with those car descriptions, I thought that it would be a matter of hours before arrests were made. Now I'm not so sure any arrests will be made at all. This case has been wound so frustratingly tight. Perhaps too tight, IMO.

 

[MsBetsy]

How do we know that? I mean that's a lot of coincidences.

Unless it's just an unrelated stolen car.

Oh, I don't know, I just skimmed through about 50 posts and I thought I saw something about it, but I'm not sure what was said. So I guess it's more of a question!

 

[gitana1]

Wrong manufacturer and year. It’s not it.

But maybe someone who saw a car doesn't know cars well and when shown some possibilities, picked wrong?

I'm hopeful. It appears there was a VIN, and an official with the fire department there said he hadn't seen anything like that in 19 years.

 

[Jethro4WS]

And you know, that's a very new looking car to dump in a river. And the license plate looks to have been removed!

Three and half hour drive from the Closs home. Seems like an incredible lead!!!!!

Google Maps

It is a 2000 Chevy Monte Carlo per the news stories. Law enforcement has experts that identify makes and models of vehicles they are looking for and they are not looking for a Chevy Monte Carlo - which does not look at all like a Dodge Challenger. Perhaps to the untrained eye, but not to vehicle experts that the FBI has.

 

[Jethro4WS]

But maybe someone who saw a car doesn't know cars well and when shown some possibilities, picked wrong?

I'm hopeful. It appears there was a VIN, and an official with the fire department there said he hadn't seen anything like that in 19 years.

Law enforcement has said the vehicles of interest were found in surveillance camera footage from businesses and residences. They made no mention that the vehicles of interest were based on what an eyewitness would think they are.

 

[SandyQLS]

Saw that earlier. The car looks like one of the vehicles LE was looking for, although not the exact make/model. I am anxious to hear more on this finding!

The article says YELLOW markings.

Sorry, not sure if my error white for yellow or if article was updated.

I wondered if Fuhrman might have been allowed to see the actual grainy surveillance images though.

 

[Gardener1850]

Everyone has their own way of looking at cases which is one of the reasons WS posters differing points of view is so interesting.

But for me I tend to take a more simplistic approach.

I dont try to rearrange the known timeline to make things fit.

I dont discount such things as the police in this case may really not know what the vehicles are.

I believe they absolutely do and that is why they have published the stock photos of the 2 vehicles of interest.

There are many ways they know what the vehicles are from shape of taillights...headlights and windows and much more.

So I take things at face value based on what is known at the time and then apply what is more logical...to me anyway.

Since I have been following cases for so long now one of the things I have learned is most cases aren't nearly as complex as some may think or make them out to be. Usually what's the easiest route to any conclusion turns out to be correct imo.

So if I take everything that is known at this time without rearranging or omitting any of it this is still my conclusion at this time. It is subject to change if new info is released.

First I do not know the motive or who the suspect could be. None of those facts have been presented yet.

However based on what I do know I think it shows James was murdered immediately when he came to his door eliminating his biggest threat.

Imo those are the 2 shots heard by the neighbors from the outside being fired into the entrance of their home where James was located and where it all began.

Since I do believe the neighbors timeline then the suspect entered the home in order to murder Denise but there had to be more happening during that 20 minutes before the 911 call was made. The only thing that makes sense to me is the suspect first had to get full control over Denise and Jayme. He may have one tie the other one up and then either tied up Jayme or threatened to shoot her if she moved an inch.

I do not think the timeline supports Denise was shot right away. I do think the wooden chair was involved in some manner even may have been used to restrain Denise.

I also believe it is a good possibilty before Denise was murdered the killer may have had some type of heated conversation before shooting Denise. Of course I do not know what was said by the killer during this time window. But just speculating it easily could have been Denise pleading for them to not harm Jayme or it could be demanding to know where any valuables were inside of the home or other things unknown at this time.

But based on the timeline I do believe some kind of conversation was ensuing for a few minutes.

Since I have not heard anyone from LE who stated Denise was found inside one of their bathrooms I do not include that and consider it irrelevant for now just like I have never seen it verified the weapon was a shotgun either.

I dont believe Denise made the 911 call. I believe at the time both parents would have been dead or Denise was dying unable to speak and instead it was most likely Jayme who somehow was able to get her mom's phone as the killer was with Denise and distracted for a short time.

However the suspect realized the 911 call had been made throwing a kink into his plan.

Imo he would know it would only take a few minutes for police to arrive. He knew he had to leave immediately taking Jayme with him. Maybe he put her in his trunk.

Since it has been almost two weeks with no sighting of Jayme I think she has most likely been murdered by now.

In Elizabeth Smart's case no one was murdered inside their home when she was taken.

Heartbreakingly it did happen to little Jaymes parents before she was taken so it's an entirely different set of horrific circumstances for her.

Imo and nothing more..

I'm thinking somewhat along the same lines as you OBE. Except I keep going back and forth in my mind as to whether I trust the timing of when the neighbors heard the shots. If the neighbors are correct and the perp really had that much time in the house your scenario seems very logical to me.

I hate to bring up the whole chair discussion again (please scroll and roll if you are tired of it, lol) but I wonder if anyone has a similar chair and would like to do an experiment for us? In thinking about a scenario where Denise was tied to the chair and noting what looks like splinters/damage in the front seat of the chair, here is what I am envisioning: Perhaps Denise is tied to the chair with her hands behind her. Perhaps while the perp is distracted with Jayme, Denise manages to stand up in the chair and walk with it still tied to her. Perhaps she was trying to reach where her phone is located. Maybe the perp saw and shot Denise at that point. I am picturing one of the bullets going through the seat of the chair as she walked with it still tied to her body. Maybe Denise was taken down from the gunshot but the perp did not see right away that she got to her phone. Maybe she had one hand free and was able to call 911 as she was dying. Maybe it took the perp a minute to notice this and disconnect or destroy the phone.

So here is my proposed experiment. You will need a similar chair and a friend you trust to tie you up. If you are tied to a chair like this with only your hands how easy is it to stand and walk? What about if you tied you legs too? If you are able to walk, where on the body does the chair go as you walk with it still tied to you? Would a gunshot through the seat of the chair be aiming for your torso area?

 

[MassGuy]

But maybe someone who saw a car doesn't know cars well and when shown some possibilities, picked wrong?

I'm hopeful. It appears there was a VIN, and an official with the fire department there said he hadn't seen anything like that in 19 years.

That’s certainly possible. My thinking is that they were quite specific in regards to the red Challenger, and less so in regards to the black suv (2 different potential manufacturers).

If there was a high probability that the red car wasn’t a Challenger, I would have expected them to be just as vague as with the black vehicle.

It comes down to how they identified this vehicle in the first place. If it’s security footage that’s one thing, but if it’s an eye witness statement then it has a much higher probability of being wrong.

Time will tell I guess.

 

[Cardinal47]

But maybe someone who saw a car doesn't know cars well and when shown some possibilities, picked wrong?

I'm hopeful. It appears there was a VIN, and an official with the fire department there said he hadn't seen anything like that in 19 years.

Actually that's very true. We don't know if it is from a camera or video shot or just a tip. I don't believe the police ever said when they posted the photo's of what they might look like. I thought it strange nobody came up with the exact make of the car from a photo. A tip could also mean a lot of little sporty red cars. Great thinking.

 

[MsBetsy]

Just off the bat, I don’t know the lingo/ for WS. Sorry.

Has it been mentioned that Jayme may have had a disability? I worked with ASRD children in my former career. Jayme’s posture in her pics is often poor or slouched and the right side of her body in early images of her (per the family FB) appears to have a disability, especially the right hand. I don’t see it as much with her lastest photos which therapy may have helped. Her school portrait is most noticeable. I did also see an image in the mom’s FB of four or five women in Autism Speaks tshirts, looked like a fundraiser, Jayme is in the front. Anyway, just some observations from a medical professional.

Also, if she had a mild disability and this is known to the perp, perhaps they wouldn’t harm her right away? My whodunit is on either someone who followed mom or dad home from the casino after a win (they pay out in cash) or a relative, by marriage or blood.

I try to keep up with the threads and read them at night when they get locked but still... blah blah blah, you guys know.

No, we have heard nothing to indicate she had a disability, and I'm pretty sure if LE thought it was a factor they would have included that in the description as soon as she went missing. I did notice in her pictures that she poses with her arms kind of folded the same way in front of her in a few. Maybe she is self conscious for some reason. But if she had a significant disability I think we would have heard about it.

 

[gitana1]

IMO, it would be a dumb move for the perp to put this car into the river if it was involved. Why? Because police have insisted that they were looking for a different vehicle. Nobody was/is looking for a Monte Carlo. Plus, dumping the car means it could be checked for trace evidence, and even without a plate, it won't take long to trace the VIN.

Yes but they might have had to get rid of it due to evidence inside of it. And they likely thought it would remain undetected. Otherwise, why not just leave it on the side of the road somewhere? or sell it for parts?

I do see now it's a 2000, so it;s an older car. But it looks to be in good shape. As some have pointed out, the perp or perps made some stupid decisions in this case (lucked out by not being caught yet, but still stupid), like breaking down a front door instead of going through the slider.

Maybe this is more of the same stupidity.

I sure hope it is!!!!!

 

[gitana1]

It is a 2000 Chevy Monte Carlo per the news stories. Law enforcement has experts that identify makes and models of vehicles they are looking for and they are not looking for a Chevy Monte Carlo - which does not look at all like a Dodge Challenger. Perhaps to the untrained eye, but not to vehicle experts that the FBI has.

Do you recall what year the Dodge Challenger was? Or did they not give a year?

 

[sumzero]

It is a 2000 Chevy Monte Carlo per the news stories. Law enforcement has experts that identify makes and models of vehicles they are looking for and they are not looking for a Chevy Monte Carlo - which does not look at all like a Dodge Challenger. Perhaps to the untrained eye, but not to vehicle experts that the FBI has.

Not only that, but LE will not follow up on tips that report something other than a Dodge Challenger (or the black SUV).

Sheriff: Items recovered in missing girl search not connected to case

 

[MassGuy]

Do you recall what year the Dodge Challenger was? Or did they not give a year?

2008-2014.

 

[Yvettea]

The monte Carlo has been described variously as 2000 to 2004.

 

[rainynights]

The article says YELLOW markings.

Sorry, not sure if my error white for yellow or if article was updated.

I wondered if Fuhrman might have been allowed to see the actual grainy surveillance images though.

I caught a clip of the MF interview on Fox (via Twitter; not sure if it's the same one you are referring to), but he did IMO seem to mis-speak when referring to the red/orange vehicle of interest. He referred to that vehicle of interest as a Chrysler, iirc.

America's Newsroom on Twitter
(*video at link)

While I can see how one could make the connection between Fuhrman's words and the Monte Carlo found in Oshkosh, I might find that more believable if the car was actually a Chrysler (seems it was a Chevrolet, by reports). Car found in Fox River in Oshkosh

Either way, I trust the FBI and LE have top investigative analysts who are poring over the surveillance footage, and have no doubt that FBI and LE will be working to rule out the car in Oshkosh either way. We shall see. Jmo

 

[cluciano63]

LE said a specific type of car...not one that might be a Dodge Challenger. They know for sure.