GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[scarpetta]

From the very first words documented here in a post that came out of her mouth as she comes in contact with the first person she talks with, the very first sentence is how I know. Let me say this, I have no doubt the Lord has spoken to her, many many times in her life just like he does with each and everyone of us. We choose not to listen, or our ears can hear, and not hear, our eyes can see and not see.

Never once, in reading these posts here, have I heard the mother fight a soul. I assume the unidentified female voice we continue to read (hear) in the 911 transcripts is the mother in the background, who obviously fought no one. I haven't seen a fighting bone in her body yet, which very well may be the problem. Dunno, maybe a passive personality, many many have them especially in crisis drama situations. I could begin to feel the urgency in just reading the words of the 911 tape released, I can only begin to imagine how more strongly I would feel if I actually heard the audio.

KOOL LOOK,

How should the aunt have handled it? What do you feel she should have said instead?

 

[KOOL LOOK]

KOOL LOOK,

How should the aunt have handled it? What do you feel she should have said instead?

Just exactly what the call should have been. An emergency call. I would have immediately responded to my prompt from the dispatcher as to what my emergency was. It would go something like this.

Dispatcher, state your emergency
me: We have a crisis, my neice isn't breathing, we don't know what's wrong with her, she appears to be unconscious, her very life is leaving her body, send help immediately, give address listen to and obey next prompt


Something just dawned on me. Scarp, am I understanding correctly, okay we have a mrs. wormgoor on the phone with the dispatcher, we also have 911 transcripts from the aunt. Are they both simultaneously on the phone with 911 at the same exact times at the residence with two different dispatchers?

 

[scarpetta]

Just exactly what the call should have been. An emergency call. I would have immediately responded to my prompt from the dispatcher as to what my emergency was. It would go something like this.

Dispatcher, state your emergency
me: We have a crisis, my neice isn't breathing, we don't know what's wrong with her, she appears to be unconscious, her very life is leaving her body, send help immediately, give address listen to and obey next prompt


Something just dawned on me. Scarp, am I understanding correctly, okay we have a mrs. wormgoor on the phone with the dispatcher, we also have 911 transcripts from the aunt. Are they both simultaneously on the phone with 911 at the same exact times at the residence with two different dispatchers?

No, the aunt called first and then Mr. Wormgoor called later. If you notice also the dispatcher tells Mr. Wormgoor that medics, police, and fire department are already on the way.

What if the aunt thought that when the ambulance got there, Mrs. Neumann might tell them when she answered the door that there was nothing wrong with Madeline?

Mrs. Neumann said that she thought the problem was that her daughter was being attacked spiritually....and NOT physically ill.

If the aunt knew that is what her SIL thought....how could she avoid the spiritual aspects at all when she called 911?

 

[scarpetta]

I listened to the tape quite a few times in the process of typing out the transcript. Several things are interesting to me about the things I heard.

1. Mr. and Mrs. Wormgoor, a baby, and a dog (or dogs) seem to be the only one's in the immediate vicinity of Madeline when the call was placed.

2. The woman praying remains in another area of the house, or outside the house if a door was open, and is never heard in the same location as Madeline.

3. A second adult male voice is heard only after Mrs. Wormgoor begins relaying CPR instructions to the first male (sounds like Mr. Wormgoor). This second male voice tells Mrs. Wormgoor to call 911, and she says that she already did.

4. A teenage male voice is heard in the background close to the time that the emergency responders arrive.

5. All of the sounds include:


a. Mr. Wormgoor
b. Mrs. Wormgoor
c. Dog (or dogs)
d. Baby or toddler
e. Unidentified adult woman praying loudly
f. Unidentified male
g. Teenage male
f. 2 or more other voices in an area not around Madeline
g. a child or adolescent female, not a baby or toddler, who is upset

 

[KOOL LOOK]

No, the aunt called first and then Mr. Wormgoor called later. If you notice also the dispatcher tells Mr. Wormgoor that medics, police, and fire department are already on the way.

What if the aunt thought that when the ambulance got there, Mrs. Neumann might tell them when she answered the door that there was nothing wrong with Madeline?

Mrs. Neumann said that she thought the problem was that her daughter was being attacked spiritually....and NOT physically ill.

If the aunt knew that is what her SIL thought....how could she avoid the spiritual aspects at all when she called 911?

Thanks, now I understand how the calls came and went down. I did notice the dispatcher told her they were already on the way, in which I assumed the address from the phone # i.d. showed up and they dispatched.

There's nothing wrong with the aunt thinking or wondering if if if mrs. neumann would have done what she may have thought, but to put it into action, plant the seed into the minds of others is where this comes down to passing wrongful judgement towards another. mrs. neumann hasn't to my knowledge fought anyone on any circumstances in her life that's been made known here. I think the aunt's remarks are more revealing on how she lives her very own life personally than a reflection of mrs. neumanns character. By all accounts, the aunt's statement was wrong. No one has attested that mrs. neumann would fight anybody who attempted cpr or medical care. It's an underground underlying current of attack that is derived from the dark spiritual world.

That's why I pray today, that I hope the neumann's eyes are opened to what has actually occurred in all this chaos and tragedy. This aunt is no friend to this family, and truly wasn't to karla either. she made it an issue thing of religion, which also very well may have taken away efforts in helping karla. If this aunt would so boldly make this kind of statement in someone else's home, their castle, there's no telling what she's said to other family members and friends associated with the neumans who very well may have said or done something prior but was put off by this womans negative judgements towards mrs. neumann.

The very nature of attacks are hidden and undercover. Often hard to detect except from the seeing eye. This aunt had no right to say what she said in their home, for quiet the contrary. The neumanns had reached out to many seeking and asking for help. No one has come forward and said they were fought in trying to help save karla's life. And no one knew her very life was in danger either until the crisis became real.

 

[DeltaDawn]

Curious here..where in the Bible did God ever say: Do not take yuor child to a hospital or doctor if they are ill? I never read that line anywhere. He has always said to pray, but never said that I know of that hospitals and doctors are demons or against faith. If they are..why so many faith based hospitals, Methodist, Catholic etc?

Please provide chapter and verse where God says do not go to a doctor he is a demon?

Also because they say it was their religion to not go to a doctor, then there religion includes human sacarifice..because they were willing to sacarafice their daughter's health and life accordingly. They watched her in a month long agony and did nothing but pray. They were willing to let this go on..yes they should be charged. Letting yuor children die while all you can think of to do over a month's time is sit and pray says to me you are willingly scarificing them to your religion. And that you exercise very poor thinking and judgement. So at this point freedom of praciticing your religion has to stop short of human sacarifice. We do not live in Biblical times..we have means to save people and God gave us those means..to not use them is a sin..to let your child die when you could have given them help in the form of doctors and medicine is a sin. God never intended this child to die, nor is it God's fault this child died. It is the fault of the family and they should be punished.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

I listened to the tape quite a few times in the process of typing out the transcript. Several things are interesting to me about the things I heard.

1. Mr. and Mrs. Wormgoor, a baby, and a dog (or dogs) seem to be the only one's in the immediate vicinity of Madeline when the call was placed.

2. The woman praying remains in another area of the house, or outside the house if a door was open, and is never heard in the same location as Madeline.

3. A second adult male voice is heard only after Mrs. Wormgoor begins relaying CPR instructions to the first male (sounds like Mr. Wormgoor). This second male voice tells Mrs. Wormgoor to call 911, and she says that she already did.

4. A teenage male voice is heard in the background close to the time that the emergency responders arrive.

5. All of the sounds include:


a. Mr. Wormgoor
b. Mrs. Wormgoor
c. Dog (or dogs)
d. Baby or toddler
e. Unidentified adult woman praying loudly
f. Unidentified male
g. Teenage male
f. 2 or more other voices in an area not around Madeline
g. a child or adolescent female, not a baby or toddler, who is upset

Couldn't we righteously so assume this, the wormgoors, dogs, the unidentified woman, younger male, man and adolescent female are the family for a shot of reality. Of course it's the mother, father, the brother, (who we have learned was very upset about her death) and the other biological sister living in the home. I'm not a rocket scientist, but I would bet my old toothbrush this is the case as it is a truth.

 

[scarpetta]

Couldn't we righteously so assume this, the wormgoors, dogs, the unidentified woman, younger male, man and adolescent female are the family for a shot of reality. Of course it's the mother, father, the brother, (who we have learned was very upset about her death) and the other biological sister living in the home. I'm not a rocket scientist, but I would bet my old toothbrush this is the case as it is a truth.

KL,

What?

 

[KOOL LOOK]

KL,

What?

This made me laugh. Just saying the un-identified voices are the mother, father, brother and sister more likely than not. Better? Sorry for the confusion, peace friend!

 

[scarpetta]

Curious here..where in the Bible did God ever say: Do not take yuor child to a hospital or doctor if they are ill? I never read that line anywhere. He has always said to pray, but never said that I know of that hospitals and doctors are demons or against faith. If they are..why so many faith based hospitals, Methodist, Catholic etc?

Please provide chapter and verse where God says do not go to a doctor he is a demon?

Also because they say it was their religion to not go to a doctor, then there religion includes human sacarifice..because they were willing to sacarafice their daughter's health and life accordingly. They watched her in a month long agony and did nothing but pray. They were willing to let this go on..yes they should be charged. Letting yuor children die while all you can think of to do over a month's time is sit and pray says to me you are willingly scarificing them to your religion. And that you exercise very poor thinking and judgement. So at this point freedom of praciticing your religion has to stop short of human sacarifice. We do not live in Biblical times..we have means to save people and God gave us those means..to not use them is a sin..to let your child die when you could have given them help in the form of doctors and medicine is a sin. God never intended this child to die, nor is it God's fault this child died. It is the fault of the family and they should be punished.

Using a doctor to help make you better is using some other means in addition to standing there and asking God to do the whole thing. You are asking if the Bible states that you are not supposed to do that.

In the Bible Jesus spit in some dirt and made mud and stuck it on a blind man's eyes and the man said he could see when he washed it off. I'm guessing since Jesus didn't have to cover Lazarus with Top Soil, and instead just told him to be alive again, he could have done the same with the blind man. But he didn't. He used a handful of something else.

Another man was told to drink a little bit of wine everyday to ease a condition he had. I think it was Timothy. Not to stand in his living room wailing like a fire truck, but to drink something that someone else made by stomping on grapes.

There are other examples but I really don't think that pointing them out is going to make a hill of beans.

 

[scarpetta]

This made me laugh. I have an errand to run, just scratch that post I reckons, didn't mean to confuse anyone. I'll try to do better next time, sorry to be so buggin. See ya in a few, take care til then friend.

Don't forget to pack your toothbrush.

 

[scarpetta]

:razz: :razz: My hubby came and is going to run the errads, so I edited my post. You have me again, ya hoo! I'm back, and my tooth is clean. I'm gonna delete this too when your through reading it.

If you just have that one tooth, you better lay off the sweets! :crazy:

 

[2sisters]

OMG how on Earth can ANYONE defend these people and what they did!? This was and I repeat WAS a child since she is dead now because of some religious nuts. A beautiful child with a full life ahead of her. her parents took that from her, whether they meant to or not. They KNEW how ill she was and continued to ignore it! They were looney, irresponsible, and cruel! I think about how that child suffered and cannot belive people are defending these2! I sure as heck hope this isn't how your children are dealt with when they are ill, if so God help you and your kids.

 

[ljwf22]

Thanks, now I understand how the calls came and went down. I did notice the dispatcher told her they were already on the way, in which I assumed the address from the phone # i.d. showed up and they dispatched.

There's nothing wrong with the aunt thinking or wondering if if if mrs. neumann would have done what she may have thought, but to put it into action, plant the seed into the minds of others is where this comes down to passing wrongful judgement towards another. mrs. neumann hasn't to my knowledge fought anyone on any circumstances in her life that's been made known here. I think the aunt's remarks are more revealing on how she lives her very own life personally than a reflection of mrs. neumanns character. By all accounts, the aunt's statement was wrong. No one has attested that mrs. neumann would fight anybody who attempted cpr or medical care. It's an underground underlying current of attack that is derived from the dark spiritual world.

That's why I pray today, that I hope the neumann's eyes are opened to what has actually occurred in all this chaos and tragedy. This aunt is no friend to this family, and truly wasn't to karla either. she made it an issue thing of religion, which also very well may have taken away efforts in helping karla. If this aunt would so boldly make this kind of statement in someone else's home, their castle, there's no telling what she's said to other family members and friends associated with the neumans who very well may have said or done something prior but was put off by this womans negative judgements towards mrs. neumann.

The very nature of attacks are hidden and undercover. Often hard to detect except from the seeing eye. This aunt had no right to say what she said in their home, for quiet the contrary. The neumanns had reached out to many seeking and asking for help. No one has come forward and said they were fought in trying to help save karla's life. And no one knew her very life was in danger either until the crisis became real.

The aunt who called was in California. From what her sister (the mom) had been telling the aunt, she knew Karla was gravely ill and had been in declining health for a month. The aunt had every right to help by whatever means necessary.

In my opinion what these parents didn't do for their child was criminal. From the 911 transcript it sounds like the people in the house watching the poor girl die were happy to have medical help at that time. Sadly, it was too late.

 

[scarpetta]

2:02pm -The aunt places the first call to 911.

<4 minutes>

2:06pm – Aunt still does not have required information when she calls this second time.

<27 minutes>

2:33pm – Aunt says to 911 Dispatcher that Mrs. Neumann “called my mother in law today and said she thinks her daughter is in a coma.”

She didn’t say that Mrs. Neumann called the aunts MIL “a little while ago,” or “just a few minutes ago.” So we really have no way of knowing yet just how much time Madeline was actually in a coma before the aunt called 911. It could have been any time after midnight that same day. We also do not know how much time lapsed before the MIL called the aunt.

A news article indicated that Mr. and Mrs. Neumann were praying over the phone with David Eells the night before (Saturday night) about Madeline’s condition.

She also indicates that they have been trying for several days to convince Mrs. Neumann to take her daughter to a doctor. She has refused.

2:35 Aunt/Dispatcher hang up

<2 minutes>

2:38 Mr. Wormgoor calls 911, indicates the child has stopped breathing. No one has administered CPR. It sounds as though only Mr. and Mrs. Wormgoor and a baby are in a location that is near Madeline.

<4 minutes>

2:42 Police on scene, Mrs. Wormgoor/Dispatcher hangs up.

 

[scarpetta]

His double negatives make it harder to read, but I think he is saying that the investigation is taking more time because he thinks they will be charged with something.

"If we didn't believe at the end of our investigation there wouldn't be charges, then our investigation would have ended a lot sooner," a local police chief told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.”

[….]

"Our feeling is it was an unnecessary death," the police chief said. "After everything else is said and done, it was unnecessary for the 11-year-old to die. She could have easily been treated and had a long, loving life here on Earth."

http://religionblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/03/police-say-charges-are-possibl.html

 

[scarpetta]

I was trying to find anything that indicated that the Neumann’s had a sense that Madeline’s condition was serious on Saturday, and that is what prompted them to call David Eells on Saturday(the day before she died). Here is what Mrs. Neumann said…

"And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341869,00.html

On Sunday Mrs. Neumann also called her mother in California, but nothing indicates how much time passed before Mrs. Neumann’s mom called the aunt. The aunt said that Mrs. Neumann had called her MIL that day, but did not say what time.

One thing that leaps out at me about what Mrs. Neumann said in this quote was when she said “…just the day before and that day, it suddenly just went to a more serious situation.”

If someone is simply “tired” for two weeks then suddenly their health takes a very serious turn, people don’t usually use the word suddenly to describe a two day progressively worsening event. This also contradicts the statement that she was just tired and that's all they noticed if she said that on Saturday it became more serious. Was a little tired serious? Something is usually serious before it becomes "more" serious.


The other thing that stands out is that after she says that beginning Saturday it became a more serious situation, she says “We stayed fast in prayer then.” On Saturday they prayed with David Eells over the phone, and I find it interesting that they “stayed fast in prayer then.” “Fast” in prayer means they began to pray a lot and non-stop. Sunday she calls her mother and the Wormgoors are at the house praying too.

Lastly, among Pentecostals, Faith Healers, etc. there is a term they use to describe when someone has been under a “spiritual attack” and believers gather around and pray for them and the person is set free from the attack. The word is “Delivered.” The word is not “Recovered.” “Recovered” is a term indicating a physical health situation, and not a spiritual health situation.

Mrs. Neumann said “We believed that she would recover.” This makes her other comment about believing it was a “spiritual attack” all along a lie.

 

[pedinurse]

Kool Look, I must disagree with you. The only reason this child had any chance at all was because the aunt, located states away, made a phone call to authorities based upon her belief that the child was in extreme danger from possible neglect... was in a coma and not being treated. It is like making a hotline... except she thought that the child was in IMMENENT danger. So she called police / EMS rather than a hotline, which can take DAYS to investigate. I would have done the same thing. I don't know who said "oh, a coma isn't going to hurt you" earlier in the thread, but I think there is a little bit of a misunderstanding there... a coma means that SOMETHING terribly wrong is going on!!

I mean, ok. I have to say to you guys. If you thought your NEIGHBOR was doing the same thing (had a child in a coma yet was not taking them for medical treatment) - SET ASIDE THEIR RELIGIOUS ARGUMENT... would you do the same thing as the aunt? Call medics / police and ask them to intervene on behalf of the child? I think that the overall opinion is a resounding YES!
I think prayer is a powerful thing. But like others have said, I believe that God only helps those who helps themselves!

 

[scarpetta]

Kool Look, I must disagree with you. The only reason this child had any chance at all was because the aunt, located states away, made a phone call to authorities based upon her belief that the child was in extreme danger from possible neglect... was in a coma and not being treated. It is like making a hotline... except she thought that the child was in IMMENENT danger. So she called police / EMS rather than a hotline, which can take DAYS to investigate. I would have done the same thing. I don't know who said "oh, a coma isn't going to hurt you" earlier in the thread, but I think there is a little bit of a misunderstanding there... a coma means that SOMETHING terribly wrong is going on!!

I mean, ok. I have to say to you guys. If you thought your NEIGHBOR was doing the same thing (had a child in a coma yet was not taking them for medical treatment) - SET ASIDE THEIR RELIGIOUS ARGUMENT... would you do the same thing as the aunt? Call medics / police and ask them to intervene on behalf of the child? I think that the overall opinion is a resounding YES!
I think prayer is a powerful thing. But like others have said, I believe that God only helps those who helps themselves!

I would like to know more about the health insurance cards LE confiscated, and if they were expired or not. Even if they weren't expired, why keep them around if you have now decided that you have this new faith that compels you to watch your daughter die. I would think that those cards would be downright demonic to keep in the house and signs of a previous mindset straight from the devil. As a matter of fact, if the mom thought that her daughter was not physically sick but instead under a "spiritual attack" why didn't she ever consider that it might be because of anything they had in the house that would invite that kind of spiritual attack, the kind that looked exactly like something related to a health issue?

If this was my mindset I would have immediately shredded those health cards in an attempt to end the spiritual attack that was disguised as a health issue.
After all it was probably the devil that was testing me and he was trying to see how much I could take before I ran and grabbed the Health Insurance cards and hauled *advertiser censored* to the hospital with cards in hand. Satan is tricky like that and he uses anything he can to question our faith, especially illnesses.

And David Eells says that medicine is the same as witchcraft. And doctors are more dangerous than people who own guns. Pharmacist are warlocks.
So wouldn't a health insurance card be a demons calling card?

 

[scarpetta]

Safeguarding child health

The case against religion-based neglect

By SHAWN FRANCIS PETERS

Posted: April 5, 2008

Easter Sunday - ordinarily one of the most joyous days on the Christian calendar - proved grim in Weston, a small town near Wausau. There, according to police reports, an 11-year-old girl named Madeline Neumann died after failing to receive medical treatment for diabetic ketoacidosis. The girl's devoutly religious parents apparently had prayed for her recovery rather than providing the insulin shots that almost certainly would have prevented her death.


It is difficult to determine precisely how many Madeline Neumanns there are in the United States. We do know, based on police and media reports, that several children lose their lives every year as the result of the phenomenon that has come to be known as religion-based medical neglect.


A study published in the journal Pediatrics uncovered more than 150 reported fatalities over a 10-year period - a tally that one of the study's authors later said represented only "the tip of the iceberg" of a surprisingly pervasive problem. Assessing whether forms of religion-related child abuse pose a greater risk to children than more widely publicized threats, such as ritual satanic abuse, a wide-ranging study funded by the National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect concluded that "there are more children actually being abused in the name of God than in the name of Satan."


Such instances of abuse often result in the filing of criminal charges, especially if there has been widespread media coverage of the circumstances of the child's death. The parents charged in these cases - many of them members of small Christian churches that ground their doctrines in narrowly literal interpretations of the Bible - often argue that the First Amendment safeguards their decision to adhere to their faiths' religious traditions and treat their ailing children solely by spiritual means.

They should not be "persecuted," they claim, for holding so steadfastly to their religious beliefs. (This complaint already has been voiced by an online minister who counseled Madeline's parents in the days preceding her death.)


Perhaps not surprisingly, law enforcement authorities generally have a different view. Prosecutors often balk at the notion that constitutional protections for religious liberty essentially tie their hands when it comes to regulating religious conduct, particularly when that behavior has endangered the safety of children. But their task often is complicated by murky state manslaughter and abuse statutes that appear to provide exemptions for religious healing practices. When prosecutors weigh the possibility of leveling charges against the parents of Madeline, for instance, they will have to grapple with a Wisconsin statute that seems to shield from criminal liability those parents who engage in "treatment through prayer." In other states, similar provisions have derailed prosecutions of faith-healing parents - much to the consternation of those who believe that those parents have essentially murdered their children in the name of religion.


Arguing that they were "Christians first, citizens afterward," a prominent Christian spiritual healer once urged his followers to disregard secular laws that might compel them to forsake their religious beliefs regarding healing.



Such is the dilemma that confronts parents who choose to treat their sick or injured children with prayer instead of medicine. Not only must they safeguard the health of their sons and daughters; they also must try to reconcile their devotion to God with their duties as citizens.


Defining these obligations through the enforcement of secular laws can be a messy affair. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that it will deter devout and stubborn parents, such as the mother and father of Madeline, from engaging in religious practices that endanger the health of their children.

But the alternative - simply ignoring the suffering of the youngest and most vulnerable members of our nation's churches - seems unconscionable.

Shawn Francis Peters' latest book, "When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children, and the Law," was published in October by Oxford University Press. He teaches at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=735743