GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

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Posted April 5, 2008

Weston girl's death could be historic case for Wisconsin
By Jeff Starck
Wausau Daily Herald
The legal case facing the parents of a town of Weston girl who died after they chose prayer instead of professional medical assistance could be a landmark case in Wisconsin.


Madeline Kara Neumann, 11, died March 23 from a complication of diabetes that was treatable, according to a medical examiner. Kara had not been to a doctor since the age of 3 and her parents did not know she had diabetes, police said.

Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad is expected to receive completed police reports this week and will make a decision soon on whether to charge the family.

Shawn Peters, a University of Wisconsin-Madison scholar who wrote “When Prayer Fails,” a book about faith healing and the law, said there never has been a case like this in Wisconsin. Peters, who said he has reviewed every faith-healing case in the country, said Wisconsin law gives Falstad a range of options from filing no charges to filing homicide charges.



http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080405/WDH0101/80405046/1981
 
[FONT=&quot]~ALL QUOTES AT A GLANCE~[/FONT]

“It remains to be seen whether this case really fits the stereotypical clash between faith and medicine. The girl’s mother, Leilani Neumann, indicated in an interview they are not religious zealots and would have taken the girl to the doctor if they had known the seriousness of the situation


"The girl’s aunt told a 911 dispatcher that, although Kara was in a coma, her parents refused to take her in for medical treatment because of religious beliefs. The girl was pronounced dead a little more than an hour later."

“She’s gonna fight it,” Ariel Gomez of California is heard repeating on a recording of the 911 call obtained by the Wausau Herald.


"In her emergency call, Gomez said other family members had tried unsuccessfully for several days to convince the parents to take Kara in."


"Even the final 911 call gives us concern, the one finally made from the Neumanns’ home. Clearly they could have saved valuable time by dialing rescue personnel directly rather than first telling out-of-state family members about the girl’s downward turn."


http://www.journaltimes.com/articles/2008/04/01/opinion/doc47efc8449d82c625065317.prt


“Officers and emergency service personnel went into the house and found the girl in a family-room area lying on a futon mattress on the floor, Vergin said.


"The mother and father were praying over her at that time," Vergin said.


“Vergin said that during an interview with detectives the parents said "they believed even though they knew she was ill, they had enough faith and prayer that God would heal her."


"They said it was the course of action they would take again," Vergin said. "They firmly believe even if they had taken her to a doctor, if this was the time God had chosen for her to die, she would die regardless of medical interference."


http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=732626


“The minister who runs the site says he talked on the phone and prayed with the family the night before the girl died, and talked with them as the followed behind the ambulance when she had stopped breathing.”


http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/17080221.html


“Investigators said they spoke with the girl's grandmother and were told that the girl had been ill for the previous week or week and a half before her death, and that she was unable to walk or talk the day before she died


http://religionblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/03/police-say-charges-are-possibl.html


“The Neumanns told police they weren't members of any specific church, but they found a religious community of sorts through the online ministry that reinforced their faith-healing beliefs.”


http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com...?AID=/20080330/GPG0101/803300706/1207/GPGnews


Eells says that the child had started to get sick "in just the last day or so" and the parents "asked me to pray and agree with them in prayer, basically because she appeared pale and listless. They did not seem overly concerned because they had had healings before. This is not an unusual kind of request to us."


Eells said he received another call from the Neumanns on Sunday as the family "followed an emergency vehicle with Kara in it. They told me that she had stopped breathing and asked if I would pray that the Lord would spare her and raise her up, which I did."


“Eells says in the statement he had communicated with the family via e-mails over the past few years.”


“The parents, who have three older children, told police that Madeline last saw a doctor when she was three to get some injections.”


“In addition to concentrating on the apocalypse - the end of the world after the return of Jesus in evangelical theology - the Web site is focused on healing and includes discussions against conventional medicine. It includes a number of posts that recommend using prayer instead of doctors, medicine and other traditional treatment for illnesses.”

On Sunday, Randall and Althea Wormgoor spoke with emergency dispatchers in a 911 call placed from the Neumanns' home, authorities told The Associated Press.

With screaming and wailing in the background, and the sound of a barking dog, Randall Wormgoor told the dispatcher, "The girl is not breathing."


The dispatcher then spoke with Althea Wormgoor and provided instructions to perform CPR.


"Did she respond? Did she respond?" Althea Wormgoor shouted as someone attempted to revive the girl.


http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=733033


Leilani Neumann clarified Tuesday that the ownership of the store will be transferred to Carolyn Wyatt, who was at the store Monday for training with her two daughters, Rachel, 20, and Natalie, 18.

Neumann told the newspaper the ownership change and training new workers will give the family "time to heal."


http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080401/WDH0101/804010627/1981


“Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin has said an autopsy determined Madeline died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body. She had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, he said


“The Neumann’s other three children, all teens, have been removed from the home and are staying with relatives.”


“We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks,” she said. “And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering.”


http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/03/31/15336/


“In a news release, Falstad said factors that will be considered in determining what, if any, charges may be filed include the duration of the child's illness, its progression and symptoms, observations made by other witnesses, and the overall context and circumstances surrounding the death, including the role of the family's beliefs


http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=735188


“Even after her death, her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, who did not belong to any organised faith, prayed over her body in the hope that she might be resurrected.”


“The parents, who have three older children, told police that Madeline last saw a doctor when she was three to get some injections


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/28/wprayer128.xml

Eells also wrote that the Neumanns have posted testimonials on their Web site but are not "'under' our minstry."


“Sleeter says when officials started to investigate the case, the Neumanns were initially cooperative, but said the couple, who have three other teenaged children, are "of the opinion that they've talked to us and there's nothing else they want to say."


"Social service officials interviewed the Neumanns' other three children, 16- and 13-year-old boys and a 15-year-old girl, on Wednesday, Sleeter said, and appointments with doctors were scheduled for the teens today."

Dale Neumann, a former police officer, told the AP that he started to perform CPR on his daughter "as soon as the breath of life left."


“But authorities believe the girl, who was enrolled in a local public school until last spring and this fall has been homeschooled, was likely ill for several days, perhaps longer, before her death Sunday.”


“In one chapter of his book "Sovereign God for Us and Through Us," Eells writes about the need to rely on God to face corporal sickness. "We cannot get anyone out from under a curse except through the Gospel," Eells wrote. "Sometimes God is merciful, but we cannot guarantee God's deliverance to those who do not walk under the blood."


http://abcnews.go.com/Health/DiabetesResource/story?id=4536593&page=1


“The legal case facing the parents of a town of Weston girl who died after they chose prayer instead of professional medical assistance could be a landmark case in Wisconsin.”


http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080405/WDH0101/80405046/1981












 
[FONT=&quot]http://www.madison.com/tct/opinion/280301[/FONT]

"A death from undiagnosed diabetes, besides being totally unnecessary in the 21st century, is slow and excruciating to witness.


Type 1 diabetes results when the pancreas does not produce the insulin needed to convert sugar in the blood into energy. Sugar building up in the blood damages blood vessels and can lead to heart attack, stroke, blindness, organ failure and amputations.


Meanwhile, the body has to get energy from somewhere, so it begins devouring itself. It first consumes body fat and then muscle and tissue.



That creates a toxic buildup of acid in the blood known as diabetic ketoacidosis.


That was ruled the cause of death for Kara.


Although the leader of a religious Web site contacted by the girl's parents claimed the girl was sick for only a day or so, such extreme deterioration typically takes much longer.


The Marathon County medical examiner said the girl "was found to be in an emaciated state" when police removed her from the home."
 



Convention on the Rights of the Child



"All member nation states (countries) of the United Nations, except the United States and Somalia,[2] have ratified it."



~


"The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, often referred to as CRC or UNCRC, is an international convention setting out the civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights of children. Nations that ratify this international convention are bound by it by international law. Compliance is monitored by the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child which is composed of members from countries around the world. Once a year, the Committee submits a report to the Third Committee of the United Nations General Assembly, which also hears a statement from the CRC Chair, and the Assembly adopts a Resolution on the Rights of the Child.[1]


Governments of countries that have ratified the Convention are required to report to, and appear before, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child periodically to be examined on their progress with regards to the advancement of the implementation of the Convention and the status of child rights in their country. Their reports and the committee's written views and concerns are available on the committee's website.


All member nation states (countries) of the United Nations, except the United States and Somalia,[2] have ratified it. The United Nations General Assembly agreed to adopt the Convention into international law as an advisory resolution on November 20, 1989; it came into force on September 2, 1990, after it was ratified by the required number of nations. The Convention generally defines a child as any person under the age of 18, unless an earlier age of majority is recognized by a country's law.



[FONT=&quot]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child[/FONT]
 
Both parents charged with 2nd degree reckless homicide, I think that's the charge and other charges, I am so pleased,

the rights of a child to live should be above the rights of a parent to freedom of religion and the rights to choose how to parent ones child,

I am so glad the DA has gone forward,
 
Both parents charged with 2nd degree reckless homicide, I think that's the charge and other charges, I am so pleased,

the rights of a child to live should be above the rights of a parent to freedom of religion and the rights to choose how to parent ones child,

I am so glad the DA has gone forward,


Is there a precedent for this case on the State or Federal level? If not I am really smelling a Supreme Court case here in the end.
 
http://wkow.madison.com/News/index.php?ID=20997

at the presser they said it is possible a unique case for the state, but they felt that the child could have been saved with medical intervention, and there duty is to protect the rights of the child, so the law was broken when the child was allowed to die without medical intervention,

battle lines will be drawn, this will be a big case, I hope the state prevails and a G verdict is rendered, that way there won't be any grey areas, if your child is sick you get a Dr, your religious views should not prevail over the child's needs,
 
http://wkow.madison.com/News/index.php?ID=20997

at the presser they said it is possible a unique case for the state, but they felt that the child could have been saved with medical intervention, and there duty is to protect the rights of the child, so the law was broken when the child was allowed to die without medical intervention,

battle lines will be drawn, this will be a big case, I hope the state prevails and a G verdict is rendered, that way there won't be any grey areas, if your child is sick you get a Dr, your religious views should not prevail over the child's needs,

Thanks, joe jones. Fascinating! I too will be interested in following what happens with this case. There are still so many details we do not know.

It does seem that most people do not consider healing by prayer a viable tool compared to modern medicine - only a viable tool in conjunction with modern medicine. I personally find that to show an extraordinary lack of faith in prayer, but it will surely be one of the factors the case hinges on.
 
I wonder if they'll have legal representation in court or will they just pray that it all works out.:rolleyes:

This little girl is gone and no verdict can bring her back. These parents will no doubt feel persecuted for their faith in prayer and just feel sorry for themselves.


J.
 
Please bear with me - I'm not real bright and I'm having a little trouble parsing that. I'll concede that my original question was not well formed, and I'd like to try again.

The Lord speaks to all of us, as you say. I believe that. Is there anything in the story we have seen so far that contradicts the thought that the Lord spoke to the aunt and caused her to summon medical assistance in response to the prayers of the parents? That the Lord saw that the parents were so involved in prayer that He chose to work through the aunt? I'm not asking if you believe this is what happened, I'm just asking if there is anything in the story as we know it that would invalidate this scenario?

If we can accept this scenario, why would we shun the aunt?

If we cannot accept this scenario, why is that?


I came back several times to see if this post was ever replied to but couldn't imagine a logical response.... what do you know, none was ever attempted.
 
They have an attorney, the DA said that unlike others who commit crimes they will not be arrested, but that there attorney has assured them that they will turn up in court for the arraignment,

at that point bail will probably be discussed, and I think they will formalise the access to the other children, possibly make them wards of the state till the trial is over
 
It said they were both found guilty and will be sentenced in October.
 
I hate that the parents were charged in this case, but I believe the law is clearly on the side of the Prosecution.

Has the mother received a sentence yet?

I think this was a perfect test case because the parents had over a month of symptoms, progressively getting worse.

They had over a day where Madeline was so ill (possibly in a coma) that she could not walk or talk. They can't claim they didn't have time to take her or that things happened too fast.

They had health insurance, whether expired or not, and the paperwork in the home, which indicates some form of trust in medicine.

They told people Madeline was gravely ill and getting worse, over time. They can't claim, like in some other cases, that they didn't know how sick she was.

Family members were begging them to take her to a doctor, so they can't really even claim peer pressure or that they were coerced into keeping her away from a doctor.


Honestly, if they weren't charged and found guilty, I think it could open the doors to such a wide range of abuse that the world would never be the same again. What a nightmare! The horror stories that go through my mind of abusive husbands and boyfriends keeping their women and children in compounds, refusing to let them get medical help and later claiming that the women only believed in faith healing...shudder.

Let's don't go there.
 
I think this was a perfect test case because the parents had over a month of symptoms, progressively getting worse.

They had over a day where Madeline was so ill (possibly in a coma) that she could not walk or talk. They can't claim they didn't have time to take her or that things happened too fast.

They had health insurance, whether expired or not, and the paperwork in the home, which indicates some form of trust in medicine.

They told people Madeline was gravely ill and getting worse, over time. They can't claim, like in some other cases, that they didn't know how sick she was.

Family members were begging them to take her to a doctor, so they can't really even claim peer pressure or that they were coerced into keeping her away from a doctor.


Honestly, if they weren't charged and found guilty, I think it could open the doors to such a wide range of abuse that the world would never be the same again. What a nightmare! The horror stories that go through my mind of abusive husbands and boyfriends keeping their women and children in compounds, refusing to let them get medical help and later claiming that the women only believed in faith healing...shudder.

Let's don't go there.

There's definitely truth to the slippery slope aspect of that and I think it's tremendously challenging to create good laws that address cases like this. I respect that's it's exceedingly difficult.

As you know, I believe parents should be allowed to use faith healing to treat their families and not forced to seek Western medical care. IIRC, these parents had some other children - I wonder what happened with them? Maybe they are with relatives - I think it was a close-knit family. Just a sad case all around - I wonder if this process (losing their daughter and the ensuing legal actions) has caused the parents to waiver in their beliefs or faith.
 
The parents medical neglect of this child, whom had the trust in her parents as loving parents and acting in her best interest. They may have loved her with all their heart, but they neglected her medically and she died.

They deserve prison for a long time. Maybe, just maybe, if one parents "takes" their child to the hospital or doctor for an illness that is progressivly getting very much worse and prayer has not helped, then the verdict send a message. The life of your child, your child's medical needs are paramount.

This child died a slow and painfull death and I am sure she was fully aware that she was going to die.

God created medicine and Doctors to treat illnesses.

You know I don't know why, someone anyone, at all, she scooped up the child and took her for care. Or called the cops and or ambulance. Anyone could have saved the life of this child. But they were all 'sheep".....and the little girl died.
 

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