Found Deceased WI - Kathleen Ryan, adult, teacher, car found burned with body inside, St. Francis, 2 Feb 2019

[OhThatVictoria]

Burned beyond recognition: Illinois coroner works to ID remains found in Milwaukee teacher’s car

burned beyond recognition - i wonder just how much there is to autopsy?

Indeed. Same here. I also wonder how toxicology testing can be performed.

 

[LarkBunting]

I just keep thinking there has to be video of something, somewhere, that can help investigators. The thought of checking so many highway cameras & business cameras is daunting. Although, maybe investigators were able to track her movements that day via cell phone pings, to at least have a narrowed down area of where they should review camera footage.

 

[Curiousobserver]

I just keep thinking there has to be video of something, somewhere, that can help investigators. The thought of checking so many highway cameras & business cameras is daunting. Although, maybe investigators were able to track her movements that day via cell phone pings, to at least have a narrowed down area of where they should review camera footage.

I am not a forensic pathologist, but I am an analytical chemist. You will likely not get a reliable result from charred/carbonized remains as described for any drugs or alcohol. You might get metals, if she was poisoned by arsenic for example. You may be able to detect if an accelerant other than gasoline was used but that is also not very likely assuming the description of the fire is correct. Cars have all sorts of accelerants built right in... This sounds like a very hot fire that burned for a long time before it was extinguished. They may get lucky and find a tooth or other small part of tissue that was protected from the heat but I am not hopeful.

 

[OhThatVictoria]

I just keep thinking there has to be video of something, somewhere, that can help investigators. The thought of checking so many highway cameras & business cameras is daunting. Although, maybe investigators were able to track her movements that day via cell phone pings, to at least have a narrowed down area of where they should review camera footage.

Agree there would be a lot of footage to review BUT the window of time is finite as well as the number of exits in between her home and the destination of car fire.

 

[Schmitz5100]

Do you think if foul play was suspected, the family would be more outspoken about justice being served? It’s been many weeks, if they were looking for someone or had leads to go on, you’d think some kind of statements would be given.

 

[kay74]

I assume her death is being investigated by both Wisconsin and Illinois. I still think she was carjacked in Illinois or someone jumped in her car while she went into a gas station. Pretty quiet. I hope this isn't going to be unsolvable.

 

[Wagtales10]

Do you think if foul play was suspected, the family would be more outspoken about justice being served? It’s been many weeks, if they were looking for someone or had leads to go on, you’d think some kind of statements would be given.

Right.

 

[Wagtales10]

I assume her death is being investigated by both Wisconsin and Illinois. I still think she was carjacked in Illinois or someone jumped in her car while she went into a gas station. Pretty quiet. I hope this isn't going to be unsolvable.

Most gas stations have cameras. That would show.

 

[LarkBunting]

Do you think if foul play was suspected, the family would be more outspoken about justice being served? It’s been many weeks, if they were looking for someone or had leads to go on, you’d think some kind of statements would be given.

Maybe not, if LE is telling them to be quiet & lie low while they follow leads. I don’t know.

 

[Detectivediva]

Maybe not, if LE is telling them to be quiet & lie low while they follow leads. I don’t know.

Usually if they tell the family to lie low there's at least one of 'em who doesn't listen. This family is way too quiet for Mrs. Ryan's case to be anything other than self harm. Just my opinion of course. May she be at peace. Seemed like a wonderful woman who had a family who adored her. You don't always know the internal pain of those who suffer quietly.

 

[Wagtales10]

Usually if they tell the family to lie low there's at least one of 'em who doesn't listen. This family is way too quiet for Mrs. Ryan's case to be anything other than self harm. Just my opinion of course. May she be at peace. Seemed like a wonderful woman who had a family who adored her. You don't always know the internal pain of those who suffer quietly.

sadly its my feeling too

 

[Tripod]

I am not a forensic pathologist, but I am an analytical chemist. You will likely not get a reliable result from charred/carbonized remains as described for any drugs or alcohol. You might get metals, if she was poisoned by arsenic for example. You may be able to detect if an accelerant other than gasoline was used but that is also not very likely assuming the description of the fire is correct. Cars have all sorts of accelerants built right in... This sounds like a very hot fire that burned for a long time before it was extinguished. They may get lucky and find a tooth or other small part of tissue that was protected from the heat but I am not hopeful.

If, and it's a big if, she died by gunshot, would you expect remnants, or at least the common metals and materials used in bullets, to have been found?

 

[LarkBunting]

I still highly, highly, highly doubt this was self-harm. If it was, there would have been no reason to do it on that exact day, with her kids & young grandkids expecting her. Wouldn’t it have been easier to, say, call in sick on a weekday & do it then? That would’ve given her an entire work day’s head start before anyone even suspected something was wrong.
Also, there are easier, less painful methods than burning to death in one’s vehicle. Why not choose a method that would, at least, allow her family the “closure” of seeing her physical form one last time to say goodbye, & to have something more than ashes to lay to rest?
Not to mention, there has been no mention anywhere of her having any current or past mental health problems or suicidal ideation.
I really hope investigators can get to the bottom of this. I will be beyond shocked if it turns out to be a case of self-harm.

 

[kirkassoc]

Sometimes, I think WS should have one forum entitled, "Unsolved - Defies all Reason." I can think of a few cases (this is one) which could be classified as such. The Dermond case is another.

 

[kay74]

Sometimes, I think WS should have one forum entitled, "Unsolved - Defies all Reason." I can think of a few cases (this is one) which could be classified as such. The Dermond case is another.

And Kyron Horman.

 

[kay74]

Look at the ridiculously long investigation in Wisconsin for Jayme Closs and then she had to save herself at 14 years old.

 

[LarkBunting]

A couple of days ago, a friend of mine was driving down the road when his car made a sudden popping noise & flash of light. He immediately pulled over. Just as he pulled over, flames started to shoot out from under the hood. He used one hand to exit the car, while he dialed 911 with his other hand. By the time the fire department arrived, the front half of the car was fully engulfed.
This came out of nowhere. His car wasn’t super old - late-2000’s...I want to say 2009. He said it happened so fast that he’s lucky there was a shoulder to pull over on.
He showed me the photos, which looked like something from a movie. The firefighters were there within ten minutes, tops, & the front half or so of the car was still literally burned down to the frame.
So, no freaking way in heck was Ms. Ryan having “car trouble,” but somehow able to drive miles off her normal route, make it to someone’s forested/hidden driveway, & park before her “car trouble” engulfed the car in flames. And, perhaps the car fire didn’t have to burn as long as us laypeople would expect before it came to be in its final condition, especially if accelerant was used.

 

[Curiousobserver]

If, and it's a big if, she died by gunshot, would you expect remnants, or at least the common metals and materials used in bullets, to have been found?

No, I wouldn't expect to find traces of the metals like a gunshot residue test. Again I am assuming almost complete carbonization of the remains as described in that one news article. In an intense fire all of the chemical elements would be present in other objects in the car and would be spread around at those temps. If it was copper jacketed then they may be able to sift though and find a lump of melted copper as well as a gun or what remains of it.

 

[Joe Friday]

No, I wouldn't expect to find traces of the metals like a gunshot residue test. Again I am assuming almost complete carbonization of the remains as described in that one news article. In an intense fire all of the chemical elements would be present in other objects in the car and would be spread around at those temps. If it was copper jacketed then they may be able to sift though and find a lump of melted copper as well as a gun or what remains of it.

Material found inside of a car would not burn hot enough to melt the copper jacket from a bullet or steel from a gun. The copper jacket may be deformed from the fire, but it wouldn't be melted into a lump of metal. The fire would be hot enough to melt lead from a bullet, which would have melted into a puddle and then solidified once the temperature from the fire reduced below the melting point of the lead.

Melting points of each metal: https://www.onlinemetals.com/meltpt.cfm
2500 F - Steel
1981 F - Copper
621 F - Lead

Carpet, plastic and other flammable material found in a car burn at around 1500 F https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/fa-243.pdf

For those of you that followed the Teresa Halbach case, (Making a Murder), it was determined that skull fragments found in the burn pit had a hole caused by a gun shot. These skull fragments were tested and metal from a bullet fragment was "supposedly" found around the opening or hole caused by the bullet. There were things burned in the fire pit which contained metal such as a seat from a van and tires to name a few. These was no mention of these other things in the fire contributing metal to the bones in that case.

 

[Curiousobserver]

Material found inside of a car would not burn hot enough to melt the copper jacket from a bullet or steel from a gun. The copper jacket may be deformed from the fire, but it wouldn't be melted into a lump of metal. The fire would be hot enough to melt lead from a bullet, which would have melted into a puddle and then solidified once the temperature from the fire reduced below the melting point of the lead.

Melting points of each metal: https://www.onlinemetals.com/meltpt.cfm
2500 F - Steel
1981 F - Copper
621 F - Lead

Carpet, plastic and other flammable material found in a car burn at around 1500 F https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/fa-243.pdf

For those of you that followed the Teresa Halbach case, (Making a Murder), it was determined that skull fragments found in the burn pit had a hole caused by a gun shot. These skull fragments were tested and metal from a bullet fragment was "supposedly" found around the opening or hole caused by the bullet. There were things burned in the fire pit which contained metal such as a seat from a van and tires to name a few. These was no mention of these other things in the fire contributing metal to the bones in that case.

yes, if you find intact pieces of bone or other tissues somehow protected from fire you might be able to get chemical evidence from those.