Identified! WI - Madison, WhtMale 18-35, 745UMWI, in chimney, fem clothing, German iron cross medallion, Sep'89 Ronnie Joe Kirk

[carbuff]

My uncle said that even if a kid had run away, parents and neighbors would talk if there hadn’t been contact in awhile. A kid he knew in high school spent a couple weeks hitchhiking and didn’t tell his parents - there was widespread panic even though he ended up coming back. This was in the early 80s.

Very different from rural Montana and New England. Families might wonder occasionally but there was a general assumption that if the person wanted to be in contact, they would.

Sounds like another piece of evidence pointing to someone not from the area.

 

[theshadow45]

This Doe has been unidentified for 30 years today.

 

[JSolt1210]

This is my first post on this site. I watched a video about this case on the Lordenarts channel on YouTube and now I cannot seem to stop thinking about this...

Just for reference, here's a link to the video. I plan to watch it later today, but one of the YouTube comments resonated with me:

"it sounds to me like it may be a Madonna costume. The time frame is right. Everyone was trying to dress like her. (I Googled: "Madonna 80's outfit" and the first one that popped up for me shows her with those boots and a cross and star of David.) She used to wear lots of crosses and necklaces, and we (as fans) used to shop thrift stores and buy any crossy-looking thing and boots like that."

I did something similar in college for a Halloween party. In 1999, I dressed up as Cher from her music video "Believe" (even spray-painted a black wig red, and stapled white party streamers to the top!). Another guy in my dorm went as Britney Spears, replicating her "... Baby One More Time" Catholic schoolgirl look. Both songs/videos were still relatively new releases.

Maybe something similar happened here? If this man dressed up as Madonna for Halloween, then chances are he might've been imitating a new release too. Since he was found before Halloween of '89, Madonna's most recent album at that time had been "True Blue" from June 1986. Were there any videos/songs from that album or tour where she dressed like that? (I was barely 5 at the time so I wouldn't remember!)

The counter-argument to this, though, is that when I dressed up, all the girls in our dorm were more than eager to help us guys with our outfits and makeup (one of them gave me "Egyptian eyes"). Unless this guy dressed himself, surely someone would've remembered what he was wearing.

 

[dotr]

Bumping link..
Case of mysterious 'chimney skeleton' may have fresh clue
Mar 5, 2012
"Laura Zimmerman remembers a face, but not a name.

It's a long shot, but she believes a man she worked with in the Legislature more than 22 years ago may be the same person whose bones and rotted clothing have long been the focus of Madison's most baffling death investigation: the skeleton in the chimney.

Last month, Zimmerman's memory was passed along to the Madison Police Department, resurrecting the mystery with a tip that has warmed up a cold case and already has been assigned to a police detective. It also may persuade authorities to expand biological tests on the unidentified bones, which are locked in a cabinet in the Dane County Medical Examiner's Office."
"In 1990, experts at the Smithsonian Institution sculpted a reconstruction of the victim's face. When she saw a photo of the reconstruction, Zimmerman thought she recognized a former page — one of the dozens of young people who scurry around the Capitol fetching sandwiches for legislators and filling water pitchers.

"I thought to myself, 'Hey, this guy was a page,'" she said."

"Zimmerman's boss, Fields, does not recall discussing the possibility with Zimmerman at the time. The State Journal asked him to compare the sculpted reconstruction of the face with faces in old group photos of pages. He saw a resemblance to a young but unidentified male page who appears in a photograph from 1977-78, but neither Zimmerman nor two other pages in the photo contacted by the State Journal could see a significant resemblance. The cheekbones, eyes and chin, however, are quite similar."

 

[houndpounder]

Just for reference, here's a link to the video. I plan to watch it later today, but one of the YouTube comments resonated with me:

"it sounds to me like it may be a Madonna costume. The time frame is right. Everyone was trying to dress like her. (I Googled: "Madonna 80's outfit" and the first one that popped up for me shows her with those boots and a cross and star of David.) She used to wear lots of crosses and necklaces, and we (as fans) used to shop thrift stores and buy any crossy-looking thing and boots like that."

Madonna costume is a great theory!

 

[fidgeypie]

Like a prayer was released in 1989. There was a heavy religious theme in that.

 

[dotr]

This missing man has not been suggested afaik, but looks interesting, imo.rbbm.
James Albert Boyd – The Charley Project
"At White's murder trial, his defense suggested Boyd, a bisexual transvestite, staged his own murder so he could get a sex change and start a new life as a woman."
4051DMFL - James Albert Boyd
4051DMFL - James Albert Boyd

James Albert Boyd

Name: James Albert Boyd
Case Classification: Endangered Missing
Missing Since: February 13, 1987
Location Last Seen: St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida

Physical Description
Date of Birth: February 2, 1939
Age: 48 yrs old
Race: White
Gender: Male
Height: 5'7"
Weight: 150 lbs
Hair Color: Brown
Eye Color: Blue
Nickname/Alias: Jim
Distinguishing Marks/Features: Tattoo of an unknown design on his left arm
"The 48-year-old businessman, traveled the world in search of rare objects. Boyd worked out of his house, buying and selling gold, rare coins, bronzes, carved ivory, Hummel figurines and firearms. His past businesses have included collecting and selling Nazi war memorabilia. He travelled frequently."

 

[JSolt1210]

Like a prayer was released in 1989. There was a heavy religious theme in that.

This is true, but this person was found on September 3, 1989. So if we're going with the "Halloween theory," then it would have to be Halloween of '87-'88, before Like a Prayer was released.

Now of course it could've been some other dress-up party, themed event, or a college hazing ritual etc., in which case that album could apply.

 

[JSolt1210]

This missing man has not been suggested afaik, but looks interesting, imo.rbbm.
James Albert Boyd – The Charley Project
"At White's murder trial, his defense suggested Boyd, a bisexual transvestite, staged his own murder so he could get a sex change and start a new life as a woman."
4051DMFL - James Albert Boyd
4051DMFL - James Albert Boyd

James Albert Boyd

Name: James Albert Boyd
Case Classification: Endangered Missing
Missing Since: February 13, 1987
Location Last Seen: St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida

Physical Description
Date of Birth: February 2, 1939
Age: 48 yrs old
Race: White
Gender: Male
Height: 5'7"
Weight: 150 lbs
Hair Color: Brown
Eye Color: Blue
Nickname/Alias: Jim
Distinguishing Marks/Features: Tattoo of an unknown design on his left arm
"The 48-year-old businessman, traveled the world in search of rare objects. Boyd worked out of his house, buying and selling gold, rare coins, bronzes, carved ivory, Hummel figurines and firearms. His past businesses have included collecting and selling Nazi war memorabilia. He travelled frequently."

Hmm, the heights of both men are a good match. The age is off, as Boyd is significantly older than the missing man estimated at 18-35 years, but we've seen ages be off before. I don't really see the physical resemblance, but that bust isn't really the most helpful depiction.

What concerns me the most, though, is the distance. Boyd was last seen in Florida, whereas the man in the chimney was found 1,350 miles away in Wisconsin. Anything is possible, but I feel like it would've been easier and less risky to make Boyd disappear in Florida swamps closer to home than in some random chimney on the other side of the country.

 

[vw51212]

Alright, so my sister (who still lives in Madison) brought this case to my attention and I've been poking at it for a bit. I'm originally from Madison, did live for a few years just down from Good N Loud in the Madison/Middleton area and have some different point of views on this case than the prior posters, I just want to throw out there so others can also help me poke at this case

I DO NOT think this is campus related at all, it is a GOOD distance from Campus and don't let the University Ave address fool you, this is not where hazing would happen they would not navigate all the way out there, this is past the agriculture building, and past the University hospital and up the hill past a high end mall and up past the DMV and...its way out there from the University in UWM terms.
This is not Dahmer, too many reasons to list why, wrong location, wrong interest group of males
As far as it being a person who cross dresses, this is VERY possible, Madison has a VERY HIGH population of LGTBQ and I felt growing up there that it is more accepted than in other places I've lived given the large population.

This music store is not records and tapes and CD's...This music store is drums and trumpets and guitars, nice and pricey Les Paul guitars
My theory is this was a robbery attempt, clothing was a disguise attempt, and possibly someone wanted a nice LesPaul to play in their garage band, OR a roadie packing up after a concert misplaced/damaged/broke the equipment and went to break in to replace it after a concert (since they weren't open) The 2 major concert scenes around Madison: Coliseum 14 minutes (8.7 min) away Headliners 9 min (3.8 miles) away.
Madison concerts (9-1978 to 7-89) are:
AeroSmith 12-12-1987 Coliseum
Blue Oyster Cult 2-2-1988 and 7-17-1989

If your a roadie and you don't show up/are not around when the bus leaves? Do they leave without you? Do they even bother to let anyone know you didn't return after a long night of drinking with the band?????

I will continue to search but any input from fellow Sluthers is appreciated

 

[Coffee56]

Alright, so my sister (who still lives in Madison) brought this case to my attention and I've been poking at it for a bit. I'm originally from Madison, did live for a few years just down from Good N Loud in the Madison/Middleton area and have some different point of views on this case than the prior posters, I just want to throw out there so others can also help me poke at this case

I DO NOT think this is campus related at all, it is a GOOD distance from Campus and don't let the University Ave address fool you, this is not where hazing would happen they would not navigate all the way out there, this is past the agriculture building, and past the University hospital and up the hill past a high end mall and up past the DMV and...its way out there from the University in UWM terms.
This is not Dahmer, too many reasons to list why, wrong location, wrong interest group of males
As far as it being a person who cross dresses, this is VERY possible, Madison has a VERY HIGH population of LGTBQ and I felt growing up there that it is more accepted than in other places I've lived given the large population.

This music store is not records and tapes and CD's...This music store is drums and trumpets and guitars, nice and pricey Les Paul guitars
My theory is this was a robbery attempt, clothing was a disguise attempt, and possibly someone wanted a nice LesPaul to play in their garage band, OR a roadie packing up after a concert misplaced/damaged/broke the equipment and went to break in to replace it after a concert (since they weren't open) The 2 major concert scenes around Madison: Coliseum 14 minutes (8.7 min) away Headliners 9 min (3.8 miles) away.
Madison concerts (9-1978 to 7-89) are:
AeroSmith 12-12-1987 Coliseum
Blue Oyster Cult 2-2-1988 and 7-17-1989

If your a roadie and you don't show up/are not around when the bus leaves? Do they leave without you? Do they even bother to let anyone know you didn't return after a long night of drinking with the band?????

I will continue to search but any input from fellow Sluthers is appreciated

Aerosmith's Dude Looks Like a Lady was released September 1987. I'm not sure it has anything to do with anything but throwing it out there anywhere. I would guess the 12-12-87 Aerosmith concert was for the Permanent Vacation release/tour. I saw Aerosmith around that time. Probably the same tour but won't swear to it. That was many moons ago. I do not remember "dudes looking like ladies" at the concert so I do not think this was a concert thing.

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

Alright, so my sister (who still lives in Madison) brought this case to my attention and I've been poking at it for a bit. I'm originally from Madison, did live for a few years just down from Good N Loud in the Madison/Middleton area and have some different point of views on this case than the prior posters, I just want to throw out there so others can also help me poke at this case

I DO NOT think this is campus related at all, it is a GOOD distance from Campus and don't let the University Ave address fool you, this is not where hazing would happen they would not navigate all the way out there, this is past the agriculture building, and past the University hospital and up the hill past a high end mall and up past the DMV and...its way out there from the University in UWM terms.
This is not Dahmer, too many reasons to list why, wrong location, wrong interest group of males
As far as it being a person who cross dresses, this is VERY possible, Madison has a VERY HIGH population of LGTBQ and I felt growing up there that it is more accepted than in other places I've lived given the large population.

This music store is not records and tapes and CD's...This music store is drums and trumpets and guitars, nice and pricey Les Paul guitars
My theory is this was a robbery attempt, clothing was a disguise attempt, and possibly someone wanted a nice LesPaul to play in their garage band, OR a roadie packing up after a concert misplaced/damaged/broke the equipment and went to break in to replace it after a concert (since they weren't open) The 2 major concert scenes around Madison: Coliseum 14 minutes (8.7 min) away Headliners 9 min (3.8 miles) away.
Madison concerts (9-1978 to 7-89) are:
AeroSmith 12-12-1987 Coliseum
Blue Oyster Cult 2-2-1988 and 7-17-1989

If your a roadie and you don't show up/are not around when the bus leaves? Do they leave without you? Do they even bother to let anyone know you didn't return after a long night of drinking with the band?????

I will continue to search but any input from fellow Sluthers is appreciated

BBM. At the time, that mall did not exist. As far as I know, Westgate was the only mall in that area at the time and that's south of where this UID was found on Whitney.

Robbery attempt and band affiliation are really good theories! There is a definite possibility that it wasn't Good N' Loud at the time this person died though, because according to this article it opened at that location in '89.

FWIW I'm going to attach a map with locations that might be pertinent to the case - hopefully this helps a bit!

The red pinpoint with a circle around it is Good N'Loud/where our UID was found.
The big blob is what can be considered campus/student housing areas by current standards. I graduated in the mid-late 2010's and that's pretty much where students are renting with a smaller population choosing to go closer to and east of the Capitol.
The blob near the bottom right corner is Alliant Energy Center/"Coliseum", which is where you mentioned concerts were held. I circled it so you can see the proximity between the location where the UID was found and where the venue is.
The blob directly south of where the UID was found is Westgate Mall, which was a fairly big hangout for kids of that age at the time. It's also close to James Madison Memorial High School, which I mentioned earlier as being a possible place to look at yearbooks for. Whitney Way is also a route to get from Good N'Loud to US-14/"Beltway" in local terms, which is the main route in and out of town from that area.

 

[dotr]

Going to scan the parades.
Madison Wi. Gay Pride parade part 2 May 1989

Media in the History of LGBT Life in Wisconsin

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

Going to scan the parades.
Madison Wi. Gay Pride parade part 2 May 1989

Media in the History of LGBT Life in Wisconsin

Time stamp 1:35 here.

 

[vw51212]

BBM. At the time, that mall did not exist. As far as I know, Westgate was the only mall in that area at the time and that's south of where this UID was found on Whitney.

Robbery attempt and band affiliation are really good theories! There is a definite possibility that it wasn't Good N' Loud at the time this person died though, because according to this article it opened at that location in '89.

FWIW I'm going to attach a map with locations that might be pertinent to the case - hopefully this helps a bit!

The red pinpoint with a circle around it is Good N'Loud/where our UID was found.
The big blob is what can be considered campus/student housing areas by current standards. I graduated in the mid-late 2010's and that's pretty much where students are renting with a smaller population choosing to go closer to and east of the Capitol.
The blob near the bottom right corner is Alliant Energy Center/"Coliseum", which is where you mentioned concerts were held. I circled it so you can see the proximity between the location where the UID was found and where the venue is.
The blob directly south of where the UID was found is Westgate Mall, which was a fairly big hangout for kids of that age at the time. It's also close to James Madison Memorial High School, which I mentioned earlier as being a possible place to look at yearbooks for. Whitney Way is also a route to get from Good N'Loud to US-14/"Beltway" in local terms, which is the main route in and out of town from that area.

I was thinking of Hilldale Mall but your point about East Towne is a strong point, even in the 1980's and early 1990's was the largest in the area, very popular to hang out and so very close to the location, and I had forgotten all about Memorial High school which also to your point is very close to both the location and the West Towne Mall.
Do you know if Club 3054 was up and running at this time? I know its an East Side location but this might be something to consider with the cross dressing theory.

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

I have a lot of extra time on my hands today so I'm going to do a bit of research on this case and see if any of it is helpful! Sorry in advance for the massive influx of links and info. I will try and make it easy to follow.

I'm going to pull a couple of other cases from around the country that fit the dates and vitals of this UID. It could be very possible that this was someone who ended up in Madison because it was an area you could get to by bus/hitchhiking and they were more of a runaway type situation.

The Doe Network: Case File 4363DMWA Matthew Garnes; matches potential age range and height. Said he was going to Portland, could have ended up hitchhiking and traveling to Madison that way. I thought hairstyle and length was quite similar as well.

803DMSC - Brian Neil Hooks Brian Hooks; vitals match and had a male partner. SC is quite far from Madison, but there could be a possibility that this body was dumped AND Madison was known even then to be LGBT friendly. Only thing that really gets me on this one is the front teeth decaying.

The Doe Network: Case File 1425DMIN Sargent Scott Micek; South Bend is about five hours from Madison, give or take. Vitals match to some extent as does the date.

The Doe Network: Case File 4378DMFL David Tait; dates somewhat match as do vitals. Had recently separated from his wife, which I thought was reason enough to put him on this list.

44DMCA - Edward Frances Copeland Edward Copeland; dates and vitals match but that's about it. Very little information available on him.

2336DMCA - Christian James Boldt Christian Boldt; dates and vitals match, again, very little information.

 

[doyoulovemepfg]

I was thinking of Hilldale Mall but your point about East Towne is a strong point, even in the 1980's and early 1990's was the largest in the area, very popular to hang out and so very close to the location, and I had forgotten all about Memorial High school which also to your point is very close to both the location and the West Towne Mall.
Do you know if Club 3054 was up and running at this time? I know its an East Side location but this might be something to consider with the cross dressing theory.

This is information about the predecessor to Club 3054, which opened in 1990. During that time Rod's/New Bar were also open on West Washington near the Capitol, Phaze II was also off the square, as was Shamrock.

 

[JSolt1210]

This music store is not records and tapes and CD's...This music store is drums and trumpets and guitars, nice and pricey Les Paul guitars
My theory is this was a robbery attempt, clothing was a disguise attempt, and possibly someone wanted a nice LesPaul to play in their garage band, OR a roadie packing up after a concert misplaced/damaged/broke the equipment and went to break in to replace it after a concert (since they weren't open) The 2 major concert scenes around Madison: Coliseum 14 minutes (8.7 min) away Headliners 9 min (3.8 miles) away.
Madison concerts (9-1978 to 7-89) are:
AeroSmith 12-12-1987 Coliseum
Blue Oyster Cult 2-2-1988 and 7-17-1989

If your a roadie and you don't show up/are not around when the bus leaves? Do they leave without you? Do they even bother to let anyone know you didn't return after a long night of drinking with the band?????

I think this is a very good theory and the motive makes sense—especially if alcohol or drugs had been involved, and if the roadies knew they were never coming back there. People do all sorts of crazy things under the influence.

Where I hesitate is that it's been stated that, at the time of the incident, this location could've been a Christian bookstore, and not a music store. If so, then that would leave robbery as the motive. (But then why dress up as a woman, etc.?)

If you're right, though, and this was concert-related (and the location had already become a music store), then I'd suggest the Blue Oyster Cult concert of July 17, 1989. The other two concerts you listed are winter concerts when the boiler would've been in use—maybe not overnight... but would usage during the day leave the chimney hot or dusty/smokey? Would stores have used timers on the boilers back then so the space would be comfortable for customers at opening time? At any rate, I think someone would think twice about climbing down a potentially active chimney.

 

[vw51212]

I think this is a very good theory and the motive makes sense—especially if alcohol or drugs had been involved, and if the roadies knew they were never coming back there. People do all sorts of crazy things under the influence.

Where I hesitate is that it's been stated that, at the time of the incident, this location could've been a Christian bookstore, and not a music store. If so, then that would leave robbery as the motive. (But then why dress up as a woman, etc.?)

If you're right, though, and this was concert-related (and the location had already become a music store), then I'd suggest the Blue Oyster Cult concert of July 17, 1989. The other two concerts you listed are winter concerts when the boiler would've been in use—maybe not overnight... but would usage during the day leave the chimney hot or dusty/smokey? Would stores have used timers on the boilers back then so the space would be comfortable for customers at opening time? At any rate, I think someone would think twice about climbing down a potentially active chimney.[/QUOTE

I love your insight about the time of year, winter vs summer, your so right...that would really impact the rooftop chimney motive, beside the heat and smokeyness in the winter, walking around on a snowey and icey roof...Winter seems to have multiple negative implications for a chimney top access point.
I agree that if a roadie being left behind was ever explored it would be the summer concert.

 

[vw51212]

This is information about the predecessor to Club 3054, which opened in 1990. During that time Rod's/New Bar were also open on West Washington near the Capitol, Phaze II was also off the square, as was Shamrock.

I'm so glad you remembered Rods! My friends mom managed Rods at Hotel Washington before it burnt down, and we would go there, I just couldn't for the life of me remember the name.
I've been to Phase II with some LGBTQ friends of mine, but never knew of the Shamrock.
Kinda poked around this with my sister last night, and please let me know your thoughts on what we discussed.
If this was a LGBTQ male, back in 1989/1990, the largest LGBTQ populations were ??? San Francisco, Key West and Madison Wi, and it was so very widely accepted.
Our thoughts were; If this person was to leave accepting family and migrate to where they would be widely accepted, Madison Wi would be a destination. We feared that the family who may not have accepted them possibly never reported them missing.
OR
The UP was transgender (thus explains the "93% positive the remains are male") If it was a transgender male, he may identify as female thus explaining the clothing, and the missing person were looking for, is not going to be listed as a male.
If the UP was born with ambiguous genitalia it was the norm of the medical profession prior to the 90's to label the baby as female.

I wonder if were searching for a missing male the family "disowned" and never reported missing OR searching for a missing male, that identified as a female and were looking in the wrong gender assignment
Thoughts?