WI WI - Robert Christian, 18, Madison, 16 Sept 1977

[md70]

Maybe Bob stopped before meeting Randy to buy pot or something else (no idea what), and I want to state that I am not judging or in any way saying that would make him a bad person, and perhaps he was going to a house he had never been before and the first time he went to the wrong house (where the witness saw him in the driveway). He realizes he's at the wrong house and eventually finds the right one where something goes wrong.

Just trying to come up with an alternate theory that fits the facts and explains why he might have been seen in a stranger's driveway. It sure would be nice to know if he seemed disoriented or nervous when the witness spotted him.

 

[McSpy]

Holy smokes! Do you think someone mistook him for a deer and shot him by accident? What a peculiar case....
Randy...where are you? Speak up!

I think it was possible. He supposedly planned to check his tree stand, so he had to go through the woods. Someone said that back then, many hunters didn't wear blaze orange. I'm sure many accidents over the years have led to the hunting rules we have today. In recent years, someone in my area shot his own son accidently, because his son took off his orange vest and the father wasn't aware of it. It was a heartwrenching accident. Sometimes hikers get shot accidently. A woman in my area was walking her 2 dogs in the woods and was shot in the hip. The hunter thought her yellow lab was a deer. Clearly, he was a sloppy hunter. He didn't know for sure what he was shooting. To top it off, he was a state trooper! Highly trained in guns! So, yes, I can see Bob being accidently shot. The person could have panicked and got rid of the body. It is just a possibility. Although, the getting rid of the body part maybe unlikely, which sort of messes up this possibility. Yet, people are capable of doing things they wouldn't ordinarily do when they are panicked.

I don't know how hunting seasons worked back then. These days (at least, in my area), there are separate seasons for bow, muzzle loader, shot gun, etc. as well as, separate seasons for different kinds of game. IIRC, it was deer season and he was going to bow hunt for deer. I wonder if hunting seasons were not as defined back then? JMO

 

[McSpy]

Maybe Bob stopped before meeting Randy to buy pot or something else (no idea what), and I want to state that I am not judging or in any way saying that would make him a bad person, and perhaps he was going to a house he had never been before and the first time he went to the wrong house (where the witness saw him in the driveway). He realizes he's at the wrong house and eventually finds the right one where something goes wrong.

Just trying to come up with an alternate theory that fits the facts and explains why he might have been seen in a stranger's driveway. It sure would be nice to know if he seemed disoriented or nervous when the witness spotted him.

Your theory is a very good theory. Pot was very popular back then. Even though Bob's parents said he didn't do drugs, most kids tried pot. It was fairly easy to get and it was always at parties.

 

[McSpy]

My impression was that Randy was at home with his mom waiting for Bob to arrive and when Bob never showed up, she called Bob's parents to let them know and it went on from there. There was a poster earlier in the thread who said he/she was Bob's neighbor and said that was his/her impression as well. I think we need to see if we can verify if Randy ever actually left the house or if he was home with his mother the whole time. I'm not sure how to do that but I would hate to accuse Randy of something shady if he never even left the house.

It was my impression too. I agree, we need to find a way to establish where Randy was when Bob was on his way up to Baraboo.

 

[Mani]

I think the car holds a big piece of the puzzle.

Interesting that the keys were in the ignition yet the money was still in the glovebox.
I wonder what the motive was if Bob has been murdered, as if he did pick up hitchhikers and they did kill him, surely they would have rifled the car.

Maybe where the car was left is important - it's extremities had things taken but not from the inside (except for the bow?).

There is not enough information about this case.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I think it was possible. He supposedly planned to check his tree stand, so he had to go through the woods. Someone said that back then, many hunters didn't wear blaze orange. I'm sure many accidents over the years have led to the hunting rules we have today. In recent years, someone in my area shot his own son accidently, because his son took off his orange vest and the father wasn't aware of it. It was a heartwrenching accident. Sometimes hikers get shot accidently. A woman in my area was walking her 2 dogs in the woods and was shot in the hip. The hunter thought her yellow lab was a deer. Clearly, he was a sloppy hunter. He didn't know for sure what he was shooting. To top it off, he was a state trooper! Highly trained in guns! So, yes, I can see Bob being accidently shot. The person could have panicked and got rid of the body. It is just a possibility. Although, the getting rid of the body part maybe unlikely, which sort of messes up this possibility. Yet, people are capable of doing things they wouldn't ordinarily do when they are panicked.

I don't know how hunting seasons worked back then. These days (at least, in my area), there are separate seasons for bow, muzzle loader, shot gun, etc. as well as, separate seasons for different kinds of game. IIRC, it was deer season and he was going to bow hunt for deer. I wonder if hunting seasons were not as defined back then? JMO[/QUOTE

Thanks! Not only is this helpful, it's interesting!
The one thing that still is adding up for me is the interaction with the woman whose driveway he was parked in. That just really raises the red flag.
Once again - where's Randy in all this? Very, very strange. Until I get more info, he remains my topic suspect.

 

[Richard]

I think it was possible. He supposedly planned to check his tree stand, so he had to go through the woods. Someone said that back then, many hunters didn't wear blaze orange. I'm sure many accidents over the years have led to the hunting rules we have today. ...

I don't know how hunting seasons worked back then. These days (at least, in my area), there are separate seasons for bow, muzzle loader, shot gun, etc. as well as, separate seasons for different kinds of game. IIRC, it was deer season and he was going to bow hunt for deer. I wonder if hunting seasons were not as defined back then? JMO[/QUOTE

Thanks! Not only is this helpful, it's interesting!
The one thing that still is adding up for me is the interaction with the woman whose driveway he was parked in. That just really raises the red flag.
Once again - where's Randy in all this? Very, very strange. Until I get more info, he remains my topic suspect.

Interesting discussion. I am not an expert on Wisconsin Hunting regulations, and regulations as well as seasons have changed over the years. But generally, the regular gun season for rifles, shotguns, and muzzle loaders was around mid November in all of the midwest states back in the 1970's. At some point, separate muzzle loader hunting seasons were introduced, but they certainly would not have been in September.

Bow and Arrow seasons usually begin about mid September and continue into January, interrupted only by the deer gun seasons.

The use of International/Blaze/Hunter Orange became law in most states starting about 1966. But bow hunters are usually exempt from the requirement unless they are hunting during a gun season. They usually prefer to dress in camoflauge.

I sincerely doubt that Robert was shot by a bow hunter. A bow hunter has to be within 30 yards of the deer and has to have an absolutely clear view of the deer in order to shoot an arrow with any hope of hitting it. Even a small twig or leaf will deflect an arrow significantly if hit.

 

[McSpy]

Interesting discussion. I am not an expert on Wisconsin Hunting regulations, and regulations as well as seasons have changed over the years. But generally, the regular gun season for rifles, shotguns, and muzzle loaders was around mid November in all of the midwest states back in the 1970's. At some point, separate muzzle loader hunting seasons were introduced, but they certainly would not have been in September.

Bow and Arrow seasons usually begin about mid September and continue into January, interrupted only by the deer gun seasons.

The use of International/Blaze/Hunter Orange became law in most states starting about 1966. But bow hunters are usually exempt from the requirement unless they are hunting during a gun season. They usually prefer to dress in camoflauge.

I sincerely doubt that Robert was shot by a bow hunter. A bow hunter has to be within 30 yards of the deer and has to have an absolutely clear view of the deer in order to shoot an arrow with any hope of hitting it. Even a small twig or leaf will deflect an arrow significantly if hit.

Thanks for this. It makes a lot of sense. I remember hearing that bow hunting is a lot closer to the game for a successful hit. I also see a bow hunter (neighbor) in the woods in my area with no blaze orange on. My dog and I wear it at certain times of the year, because I forget the hunting season dates. I lose track. Better safe than sorry. Lol! It looks like it was unlikely Bob was in a hunting accident.

Sorry about typos. . . using iPhone.

 

[deca]

It might be a long shot, but accidents do happen. A few months ago, a local man was shooting at some nuisance deer on his semi rural forested property- an illegal act because of the time of year and area he was living in. By sheer bad luck, his bullet traveled quite a distance, missing hundreds of trees, but hit a child walking with some friends down a road. Luckily child was okay. A day or two passed before this man fessed up to LE. What I am getting at: the hunting rules make it less likely that it was a hunting accident- but you never know. Someone could have been out there illegally and hit him then covered it up.

In any case, I am not sure that is what happened. I doubt he would have ventured very far from his car with the keys in the ignition, and I would think all the dogs they had out there would have smelled the blood that would have been at an accident scene.

We need more info! Hopefully we can get a local in here at some point who has insight into this case. OK I will be quiet now, I promise.

 

[Grifynne]

I have a hard time accepting the hunting accident theory. It seems unlikely to me that someone could find a way to completely hide a body for decades on a whim since they wouldn't have any time to plan ahead and likely no experience hiding bodies. I would think feeling panic would only make someone unaccustomed to this sort of thing very nervous and potentially sloppy.

The fact that Randy seems to be oddly silent in all of this and a witness claims to have seen and spoken to Robert briefly seems a bit ominous to me. Robert was (from what I read here) in an area he was familiar with, so why was he having such a hard time finding his friend (as he indicated to the witness)? I think there was maybe more to it.

I'm also curious about the type of person Randy was. Was he reliable like Robert or was he notorious for not showing up? If he wasn't reliable, perhaps this was just a matter of wrong place and wrong time - with Randy maybe not showing up where he was supposed to and Robert getting into some kind of trouble looking for him? I know this has been said a number of times, but I think we need to learn more about Randy.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Interesting discussion. I am not an expert on Wisconsin Hunting regulations, and regulations as well as seasons have changed over the years. But generally, the regular gun season for rifles, shotguns, and muzzle loaders was around mid November in all of the midwest states back in the 1970's. At some point, separate muzzle loader hunting seasons were introduced, but they certainly would not have been in September.

Bow and Arrow seasons usually begin about mid September and continue into January, interrupted only by the deer gun seasons.

The use of International/Blaze/Hunter Orange became law in most states starting about 1966. But bow hunters are usually exempt from the requirement unless they are hunting during a gun season. They usually prefer to dress in camoflauge.

I sincerely doubt that Robert was shot by a bow hunter. A bow hunter has to be within 30 yards of the deer and has to have an absolutely clear view of the deer in order to shoot an arrow with any hope of hitting it. Even a small twig or leaf will deflect an arrow significantly if hit.

I know what you say is absolutely true. I watched a retired Green Beret bow hunt a deer many years ago. It was a fascinating watch, although I was rooting for the deer to escape. He did have to get very close and I guess when you're behind them, they don't catch your scent? Anyway, I agree, when thinking about this, and what little info we have, that Bob met foul play and this wasn't an accident. He might have been an accidental witness that ended in his demise, but the act was intentiional.
Further, I'm sorry to keep harping on the subject of the hunting buddy Randy, but I need more info on this guy. He is just sounding more and more like our Suspect, and that this whole thing just got hush hushed. Of course I don't have the facts. That said, why is there such a mystery surrounding the friend?

 

[rosesfromangels]

I have a hard time accepting the hunting accident theory. It seems unlikely to me that someone could find a way to completely hide a body for decades on a whim since they wouldn't have any time to plan ahead and likely no experience hiding bodies. I would think feeling panic would only make someone unaccustomed to this sort of thing very nervous and potentially sloppy.

The fact that Randy seems to be oddly silent in all of this and a witness claims to have seen and spoken to Robert briefly seems a bit ominous to me. Robert was (from what I read here) in an area he was familiar with, so why was he having such a hard time finding his friend (as he indicated to the witness)? I think there was maybe more to it.

I'm also curious about the type of person Randy was. Was he reliable like Robert or was he notorious for not showing up? If he wasn't reliable, perhaps this was just a matter of wrong place and wrong time - with Randy maybe not showing up where he was supposed to and Robert getting into some kind of trouble looking for him? I know this has been said a number of times, but I think we need to learn more about Randy.

Our posts are almost identical...we agree on all points. We absolutely need to find out what Randy said to the police, and what his explanation was. We need a verbatim statement from the witness who talked about Bob being in her driveway. You are right. He knew that driveway. He knew where he was supposed to be. He was set up....
I don't know why, but I keep going back over and over in my mind the little tidbit about the cigars/cigarellos he stopped to pick up. My first thought was that he stopped and got them leisurely in anticipation of an enjoyable day. Cigars are something that are smoked when relaxing, or celebrating. Or, did he stop and get them because he was nervous? I would like to know if the shopkeeper was interviewed.
This is a very interesting case, and I really think it's a simple case that hasn't been solved because of a payoff/coverup most likely. (THEORY only, no evidence).

 

[Mani]

Interesting discussion. I am not an expert on Wisconsin Hunting regulations, and regulations as well as seasons have changed over the years. But generally, the regular gun season for rifles, shotguns, and muzzle loaders was around mid November in all of the midwest states back in the 1970's. At some point, separate muzzle loader hunting seasons were introduced, but they certainly would not have been in September.

Bow and Arrow seasons usually begin about mid September and continue into January, interrupted only by the deer gun seasons.

The use of International/Blaze/Hunter Orange became law in most states starting about 1966. But bow hunters are usually exempt from the requirement unless they are hunting during a gun season. They usually prefer to dress in camoflauge.

I sincerely doubt that Robert was shot by a bow hunter. A bow hunter has to be within 30 yards of the deer and has to have an absolutely clear view of the deer in order to shoot an arrow with any hope of hitting it. Even a small twig or leaf will deflect an arrow significantly if hit.

I agree with you Richard. I have been bow hunting for wild boar here in Queensland (Australia) and you do have to be very close. They are as skittish as deer and hear everything around them so you have to be so extremely quiet and patient when hunting them.

I went over to the Tiki Bar a week ago and asked if anyone from there would come over to here to look at Bob's case, hoping that some Wisconsonites might have come over. It would be great to get some locals to come over and tell us about the area. I did find a member called pamrinn who is on the Joe Clark thread and said she lived near Baraboo.

I will message her and invite her over here as she would know the area and could help us understand more.

 

[deca]

One of the things that makes me think Randy is probably not involved: LE had an enormous and swift response to his disappearance- especially given that it was the 70s when many teens were written off as runaways. I am pretty sure Randy and his family were all questioned and cleared. There is nothing written (of course we don't have a whole lot to go by) that would suggest that LE considered Randy or his story suspicious.

This leads me to believe that maybe Bob made an "appointment" with someone before Randy. Maybe he was going to meet a different friend to buy some weed or say hi- whatever- and then go to Randy's place. That would explain why Bob didn't really know where his "friend" lived or if he was in the right place to meet him (as per witness statement). He knew where Randy lived and he wasn't in that neighborhood when he was last seen.
Those cigarillos he purchased could have been the kind you make blunts from?

 

[rosesfromangels]

One of the things that makes me think Randy is probably not involved: LE had an enormous and swift response to his disappearance- especially given that it was the 70s when many teens were written off as runaways. I am pretty sure Randy and his family were all questioned and cleared. There is nothing written (of course we don't have a whole lot to go by) that would suggest that LE considered Randy or his story suspicious.

This leads me to believe that maybe Bob made an "appointment" with someone before Randy. Maybe he was going to meet a different friend to buy some weed or say hi- whatever- and then go to Randy's place. That would explain why Bob didn't really know where his "friend" lived or if he was in the right place to meet him (as per witness statement). He knew where Randy lived and he wasn't in that neighborhood when he was last seen.
Those cigarillos he purchased could have been the kind you make blunts from?

I thought Bob said he was supposed "to meet" his friend where he was, not that "he lived" there? I don't think making blunts was very common back in the 70's? I don't remember people mixing tobacco and weed, but perhaps I was only exposed to "pureists?" I thought the whole blunt trend started more recently?

 

[Satch]

One of the things that makes me think Randy is probably not involved: LE had an enormous and swift response to his disappearance- especially given that it was the 70s when many teens were written off as runaways. I am pretty sure Randy and his family were all questioned and cleared. There is nothing written (of course we don't have a whole lot to go by) that would suggest that LE considered Randy or his story suspicious.

This leads me to believe that maybe Bob made an "appointment" with someone before Randy. Maybe he was going to meet a different friend to buy some weed or say hi- whatever- and then go to Randy's place. That would explain why Bob didn't really know where his "friend" lived or if he was in the right place to meet him (as per witness statement). He knew where Randy lived and he wasn't in that neighborhood when he was last seen.
Those cigarillos he purchased could have been the kind you make blunts from?

That is an outside possibility, yes. If Bob was planning to go somewhere before he was supposed to meet Randy, and maybe at that place he got lost. When he told apparently the only witness, the lady in the driveway, "I'm looking for my friend. I'm supposed to meet my friend. I must be in the wrong place." Now maybe that "friend" was not Randy at all, but a bad person, which Bob met and had a fatal fate. And if this unknown bad person or group of people was not known to Randy, and was proven to be unknown to Randy, it could make Randy innocent. I assume that Bob visited Randy enough times to know where he lived and how to get to that area.

Or maybe Bob was a heavy drug user, got a hold of some bad stuff, and it affected his judgment and timing so much that he got lost? But someone had to do something bad to him in this case because we still have the totaled car and no sign of Bob has ever been found.

Or an accident of some kind committed by someone, they stripped the car and hid or drowned Bob's body in a river or lack to cover up any link as to what might have happened to him. I would really like to hear Randy's statements as to what happened to Bob? Would they incriminate him? Or clear him in this case? Has he talked? Has he changed his story over time? What was Randy's moods and actions like after Bob disappeared and after his car was found stripped. And I agree with the others. Randy HAS to come forward with what he knows, or I don't think this case is going to go anywhere. If he doesn't know, and his still alive and out there, Randy should take a polygraph. There is much we can learn from him. If Randy is cleared through physical evidence than I am almost back to Bob picking up hitchhikers and/or a drug deal that went fatal, before he got to see Randy.

Satch

 

[VeryVeritas]

With the new information; Bow missing, bullet holes in swapped tires and Bob's hubcaps, and Randy's mom calling Bob's family:

1) I'm now wondering if Bob had clothing and other items which were missing.
2) The Bow could have been taken along with the tires and battery.
Consider for a moment just who would take tires off of a vehicle, then would ditch their own but along with Bob's Hub caps, when the keys were in the car!? Why not just take the whole car? Again this points to someone local or tied to the local area.
3) What kind of bullets were in the tires and hub caps? Hunting rifle bullets, or hand gun bullets? All from the same gun, or different ones?(a clue that this may have been more than one person)
4) The car may have been driven to the location it was found, so that the tires and battery could be removed. And of the license plate, it too could have been taken for a lot of reasons. It does strike me as odd that only certain things (like tires, which take quite a bit of time to remove) were taken, but glove box was left untouched. This is someone thinking more along practical lines and not all out thievery. Why ditch the hub caps? They could later be an identifier, or could have been seen as flashy.
Working with the possibility of Native Americans, or some other locals the hub caps could raise eyebrows for multiple reasons. There are 2 reasons Native Americans may figure into this. There was a lot of tension with Native Americans vs. Hunters in that time period. There is also that more practical tendency to "Take what I need" and leave the rest behind. That kind of thinking could also be anyone, but it leans in that direction.
5) It is not unsual for deer hunters to drive around "spotting" although with Randy's mom's call it would appear Bob would not do something so erratic. It also seems Bob knew the area very well. So, now my view is shifting more towards an intersection with another person or persons. This place where the car was found, seems like the car was driven here so that the tires / battery could be removed without being noticed. Someone knew this location. Points to locals, or frequent visitor to the area.
6) What are the odds that 2 people from the same family would be murdered(as it now looks for Bob) a few years apart? This is statistically significant, and if nothing else, points to something going on in the family environment. Both Bob and his sister had exceedingly bad judgement and become victims? There is more to the associations involved with these people than a clean cut graduation photo. While there may be no direct tie with the bikers, there is some other thread here that caused these 2 people from the same family to be involved in risky circumstances. There has to be more info to get a Picture of Bob and what he might of have done for example: a) what if he was confronted by a group of people, on foot or in a car? b) How likely would he have been to pick up hitchhikers? c) what is the possibility that he was more interested in pot or drugs than deer? d) how reliable was he at showing up on time, etc...?
7) Exactly why was his sister murdered? We know it was bikers, but was a reason given? Earlier, think someone said she was an informant. This strikes me as strange. Girl hangs around with dangerous bikers and then squeals on them. That's playing with fire. If Bob's sister had those kind of balls, one wonders what Bob was capable of. Or was she having no fear of death because of her missing brother? Psychologists, help me out here.

 

[rosesfromangels]

With the new information; Bow missing, bullet holes in swapped tires and Bob's hubcaps, and Randy's mom calling Bob's family:

1) I'm now wondering if Bob had clothing and other items which were missing.
2) The Bow could have been taken along with the tires and battery.
Consider for a moment just who would take tires off of a vehicle, then would ditch their own but along with Bob's Hub caps, when the keys were in the car!? Why not just take the whole car? Again this points to someone local or tied to the local area.
3) What kind of bullets were in the tires and hub caps? Hunting rifle bullets, or hand gun bullets? All from the same gun, or different ones?(a clue that this may have been more than one person)
4) The car may have been driven to the location it was found, so that the tires and battery could be removed. And of the license plate, it too could have been taken for a lot of reasons. It does strike me as odd that only certain things (like tires, which take quite a bit of time to remove) were taken, but glove box was left untouched. This is someone thinking more along practical lines and not all out thievery. Why ditch the hub caps? They could later be an identifier, or could have been seen as flashy.
Working with the possibility of Native Americans, or some other locals the hub caps could raise eyebrows for multiple reasons. There are 2 reasons Native Americans may figure into this. There was a lot of tension with Native Americans vs. Hunters in that time period. There is also that more practical tendency to "Take what I need" and leave the rest behind. That kind of thinking could also be anyone, but it leans in that direction.
5) It is not unsual for deer hunters to drive around "spotting" although with Randy's mom's call it would appear Bob would not do something so erratic. It also seems Bob knew the area very well. So, now my view is shifting more towards an intersection with another person or persons. This place where the car was found, seems like the car was driven here so that the tires / battery could be removed without being noticed. Someone knew this location. Points to locals, or frequent visitor to the area.
6) What are the odds that 2 people from the same family would be murdered(as it now looks for Bob) a few years apart? This is statistically significant, and if nothing else, points to something going on in the family environment. Both Bob and his sister had exceedingly bad judgement and become victims? There is more to the associations involved with these people than a clean cut graduation photo. While there may be no direct tie with the bikers, there is some other thread here that caused these 2 people from the same family to be involved in risky circumstances. There has to be more info to get a Picture of Bob and what he might of have done for example: a) what if he was confronted by a group of people, on foot or in a car? b) How likely would he have been to pick up hitchhikers? c) what is the possibility that he was more interested in pot or drugs than deer? d) how reliable was he at showing up on time, etc...?
7) Exactly why was his sister murdered? We know it was bikers, but was a reason given? Earlier, think someone said she was an informant. This strikes me as strange. Girl hangs around with dangerous bikers and then squeals on them. That's playing with fire. If Bob's sister had those kind of balls, one wonders what Bob was capable of. Or was she having no fear of death because of her missing brother? Psychologists, help me out here.

Great post!!! Yes, 2 people from the same family being murdered can't be called a sad coincidence. We need more data.

 

[buster23]

I am working on getting police reports to see if I can find out more information.
If I find out anything that clears up some of the questions, I'll let you know. Thanks for all of the ideas and input.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I've been away...did anyone ever track down the hunting buddy Randy? What's the scoop on this guy?