GUILTY WI - Six deer hunters killed, 2 injured in Sawyer County shooting, 21 Nov 2004

[Mom who cares]

Hi, all, I live in NE Wisconsin and have been exposed to the ritual of deer hunting all my life. We are 35 miles away from a largely Hmong community, there is little animosity towards them, we accept that they were brought here to begin a new life.

Deer hunting week is definitely a ritual, and you DON'T HUNT ON PRIVATE LAND! There are loads of acres of State land to hunt on, why he chose that particular spot is beyond me.

We've been in situations where people have come onto our land to pick up shed antlers, snoop around, whatever, without asking permission. You just can't do it, it's trespassing and it's illegal.

How would you feel if someone just walked into your yard? You would ask them to please leave. It's the same thing. Vang should have let the hunters see his tag and accepted a trespassing fine.

JMHO

 

[golfmom]

Here's the legal definition for premeditation:

PREMEDITATION - With planning or deliberation. The amount of time needed for premeditation regarding an act depends on the person and the circumstances. It must be long enough, after forming the intent to act, for the person to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the act.

A design formed to commit a crime or to do some other thing before it is done.

Premeditation differs essentially from will, which constitutes the crime, because it supposes besides an actual will, a deliberation and a continued persistance which indicate more perversity. The preparation of arms or other instruments required for the execution of the crime, are indications of a premeditation, but are not absolute proof of it, as these preparations may have been intended for other purposes, and then suddenly changed to the performance of the criminal act. Murder by poisoning must of necessity be done with premeditation.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p075.htm

My opinion is this crime became premeditated with the removal of the scope, and continued through Vang reloading.

 

[Lady GL]

Hi, all, I live in NE Wisconsin and have been exposed to the ritual of deer hunting all my life. We are 35 miles away from a largely Hmong community, there is little animosity towards them, we accept that they were brought here to begin a new life.

Deer hunting week is definitely a ritual, and you DON'T HUNT ON PRIVATE LAND! There are loads of acres of State land to hunt on, why he chose that particular spot is beyond me.


JMHO

I absolutely agree, Mom Who Cares. Hunting in Wisconsin carefully patrolled and all hunters must pass the Hunter Safety Course and it is strict - no goofing, no playing around, no shooting at a sound in the woods, all responsible hunters know this is serious, and they know they are holding something that can kill anything or anyone.

I first agreed with another poster who said Vang did not go hunting that day and planned these murders but "snapped." But then I thought about it, anyone else can "snap" or step away. You either make the right decision or the wrong one.

Two of the victims were a father and son buried on Thanksgiving weekend. I could not go on if that happened to me.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

My opinion is this crime became premeditated with the removal of the scope, and continued through Vang reloading.

Absolutely. And when he continued firing bullets over a 10 minute period of time. After each bullet, he had the chance to stop and chose not to.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I first agreed with another poster who said Vang did not go hunting that day and planned these murders but "snapped." But then I thought about it, anyone else can "snap" or step away. You either make the right decision or the wrong one.

But I think that by the very definition of snapping, you aren't even capable of making choices. You are completely blinded by rage. I believe that he snapped and couldn't get control of his logical self at that point, even if he had wanted to. Should that excuse him for what he's done? Not at all, IMO. If he had killed one hunter or even a couple in a short, quick spray of bullets before running, I could maybe buy the self-defense scenario. But to be firing that gun for 10 minutes, (if that testimony is accurate), this was deliberate. At any point during those 10 minutes, he could have decided to stop if he was logical. The fact that he didn't indicates to me that he was either insane, bent on hunting down each one of his confronters and killing them, or a combination of the two. When all of this was done, however, he managed to find his way out of the woods, even pausing to calmly (but nervously) ask for directions. So while I don't think that he intended to go out and kill people that day, I'm not sure what degree of snapping he experienced either, (although I think that you'd have to snap to some degree to be able to do something like this in the first place).

 

[golfmom]

Absolutely. And when he continued firing bullets over a 10 minute period of time. After each bullet, he had the chance to stop and chose not to.

Part of the definition for premeditation sounds like it was Vang's playbook.

"Premeditation differs essentially from will, which constitutes the crime, because it supposes besides an actual will, a deliberation and a continued persistance which indicate more perversity. The preparation of arms or other instruments required for the execution of the crime, are indications of a premeditation, but are not absolute proof of it, as these preparations may have been intended for other purposes, and then suddenly changed to the performance of the criminal act. "

The preparation of arms were for hunting but he suddenly changed to the performance of a criminal act ... with a deliberation and continued persistance which indicate more perversity.

TOTALLY PREMEDITATED!

 

[mysteriew]

IMO, it started off as a confrontational type of thing.
Articles I have read indicate that Vang came from Laos after the Vietnam era. The article hinted at a violent past. Since coming to the US I feel certain that Vang faced some cultural/descrimation issues.
The hunters were a group of macho men, possibly had been drinking the night before- maybe hung over. They find a trespasser and one tells him to leave. The hunters get on the radio and more hunters show up- some discrimatory words were probably exchanged. A gun was brought into view, possible even pointed at Vang, possibly even shot either into the air or at the dirt. I think that faced with a bunch of macho men, Vang snapped and started shooting. First death was premeditated in that he took the time to remove the gun sight before shooting. Each murder after that was definately premeditated in that he had to chase them down, in order to shoot them.
What I can't understand is why he quit? At least the hunter who was injured couldn't run and hide. It seems that he passed others also without shooting them. I think that more than anything tells me that he was sane. If he had totally snapped or was out for revenge he would have tracked them all down and killed them.

 

[golfmom]

myst, I don't want to minimize the hardship Vang experienced growing up. But, his mother and sister have disputed much of what he claims to have experienced as a child.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Mysteriew, I think that your theory is right on. I can definitely see a macho confrontational situation. I think that the hunters probably did confront him less than appropriately, probaby mocked him, belittled him, etc. While it would certainly p*ss me off if someone did that to me, and I too would probably WANT to lash out, I would hope that I'd use better judgement. You are also correct in that hunting down these folks one by one is certainly premeditation as is removing your scope as gm had mentioned.

I'm sorry for any trauma he's experienced, but as you and I both know all too well, many of us have trauma and go on to lead good lives helping rather than harming. I'd definitely be interested in knowing more about Vang's violent past.

 

[golfmom]

Hey all! This trial is moving so quickly and so much information is coming out by the minute that I'm having a hard time processing and absorbing it all.

I don't ever remember following a trial that has moved at this pace.

 

[golfmom]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...,1,1654451.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

Also testifying Tuesday were several family members who were at a nearby cabin and among the first to reach the dead and wounded after they had been called for help on a two-way radio.

Adam Laski, whose father died in the shooting, said he and another teen were so frightened about what was happening in the woods that they grabbed a gun and hid in an outhouse after accidentally locking themselves out of the cabin.

Carter Crotteau, 19, told jurors about how he discovered his brother and father dead in the woods.

"I tried to wake him up," he said, as he described feeling for his father's pulse. "I stood there in disbelief for a little bit."

 

[lisag]

Hi, all, I live in NE Wisconsin .

Me too !!

 

[Lady GL]

HAYWARD, Wis. -- The Minnesota hunter on trial for shooting eight hunters in Sawyer County testified Thursday afternoon about how he opened fire on the hunting party after one of the hunters fired at him first.

An unemotional Chai Vang methodically detailed how he shot the hunters one-by-one in the woods near Exeland last Nov. 21 after some of them confronted him about trespassing.


http://www.themilwaukeechannel.com/news/4979302/detail.html

 

[concernedperson]

Because he thought he could. It is as simple as that. Those that want to give a benefit do not know sociopaths. The reality is that they will do what gives them the most benefit.Even if it comes to fruition that they have no right. In their minds they have this right.So they will act in that regard and bear the scrutiny and still uphold this persona.

 

[vanillasky]

If he had a snowball's chance in h-ll of receiving any leniency at all, he blew it out of the water with his testimony, as you'll read below.



FULL STORY: http://www.startribune.com/stories/467/5616664.html
Use http://www.bugmenot.com for a username / password if prompted for one

HAYWARD, WIS. -- A courtroom full of people sat in stunned silence Thursday as Chai Soua Vang ended his murder trial with the bold declaration that some of the six deer hunters he killed deserved to die because they were disrespectful.

In a cross-examination that may devastate Vang's claim that he was acting in self-defense, he said landowner Robert Crotteau and his 20-year-old son, Joe, deserved what they got when Vang chased them down and fatally shot each in the back, though Vang acknowledged that neither was armed.

Robert Crotteau deserved to die "because he's the one who confronted me and called me names and that's just who he is," Vang testified, as members of Crotteau's family appeared tearful and stunned.

Joe Crotteau deserved to die " 'cause he accused me of giving him the finger and tried to cut in front of me," Vang said, after describing how the younger Crotteau blocked him from leaving as his father profanely berated Vang for trespassing on the family's hunting land.

After jurors had left the courtroom and Vang's mother, siblings and children were allowed to speak with him, Vang sank weeping to his knees while his family surrounded him and prayed with him in Hmong, Vang's native language.

 

[Lady GL]

Because he thought he could. It is as simple as that. Those that want to give a benefit do not know sociopaths. The reality is that they will do what gives them the most benefit.Even if it comes to fruition that they have no right. In their minds they have this right.So they will act in that regard and bear the scrutiny and still uphold this persona.

Exactly. Vang showed no remorse two days later:

Chai Soua Vang's account of the shootings, released Tuesday, describes a wild scene in which he fired back, shooting and killing the others, reversing his coat from blaze orange to camouflage and reloading his weapon. At one point, he said, he stalked one of the unarmed men and shot him in the back as he fled screaming for help.

When he found one victim still standing after Vang had fired several shots, Vang said he yelled, "You're not dead yet?" and fired at him again.

At least one mental health expert said such actions don't suggest fear.


http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/nov04/277915.asp

 

[golfmom]

http://www.courttv.com/trials/vang/091505_ctv.html

He said that he pursued Joey Crotteau nearly 400 feet through the woods, shooting him at least four times and stopping to reload before the 20-year-old finally fell dead to the ground.

While describing the incident from the stand, Vang pantomimed aiming and firing a rifle.

The medical examiner who performed the autopsy testified earlier in the day that the fourth gunshot to the back of his neck killed him.

........

"I too am baffled and shocked by the events of November 21, 2004," the young woman said, voice trembling, as 13 family and friends stood behind her. "All of this could have been avoided if we just learn to respect each other."

Or learn how to respect private property. ​

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Hunting Murders - TheMilwaukeeChannel

Just some background info - this link says that Vang lived in the US for 25 years, served in the Army, and has 6 children.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Chai Vang Testifies - TheMilwaukeeChannel

Some news footage of the testimony. Vang claimed that he was shot at first, and describes his version of how events unfolded. Apparently a witness also testified that he had heard a shot, then a pause, then a bunch of shots - possibly backing up Vang's account.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

A courtroom full of people sat in stunned silence Thursday as Chai Soua Vang ended his murder trial with the bold declaration that some of the six deer hunters he killed deserved to die because they were disrespectful...

Robert Crotteau deserved to die "because he's the one who confronted me and called me names and that's just who he is," Vang testified, as members of Crotteau's family appeared tearful and stunned...

Joe Crotteau deserved to die " 'cause he accused me of giving him the finger and tried to cut in front of me," Vang said, after describing how the younger Crotteau blocked him from leaving as his father profanely berated Vang for trespassing on the family's hunting land.

Unbelievable. I'm rethinking my position now that he snapped that day. If he's still feeling that same anger and that same justification, he's obviously got ongoing issues. Even self-defense seems less likely now - in self defense, you do what you've got to do. This man sounds proud somehow of what he's done, feeling as if he taught these people a necessary lesson. (I wonder how the defense attorneys didn't pass out on the spot.)

Here's hoping that Vang spends the rest of his days behind bars.