WI - Teresa Marie Halbach, 25, Manitowoc, 31 Oct 2005

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>And in the same vein, when was the last time that anyone has heard of an innocent person being executed for a crime they didn't commit?<

The pioneering academic study of innocent prisoners convicted of capital crimes was an article in the November, 1987 Stanford Law Review by Professors Hugo Bedau and Michael Radelet. They found that 23 innocent prisoners, from the beginning of the century through the publication date of the study, had been executed.

There are more stories - more recently.

http://www.justicedenied.org/executed.htm

>When is the last time we heard of someone who got the death sentence later to be found innocent?<

Texas in particular, has sentenced many people to death row, despite the proven fact that the defense attorney was drunk, on drugs or asleep. And they kill 'em then too.

175 people have been exonerated through the Innocence Project - that's just the ones where there is conclusive DNA evidence to get these men out.

Even if these men aren't angels, that doesn't mean they should be in prison or worse, dead, for a crime they didn't do. Thomas Jefferson - It's better to let 10 guilty men go free than to imprison one innocent man. That's the principles on which this country was built.

But the worst part is that if an innocent man is convicted, the guy that did it is still out there and free. For me, that's the biggest danger.

For instance, Steven Avery was no angel. But he didn't rape that woman!! DNA MATCHED another man, a convicted rapist, who looked similar to Avery, who was in the area at the time. BTW - b/c the cops were so determined to frame Avery, this other guy was able to run around free, raping other women, for years after Avery was convicted. That should make us mad too.

Finally, the Innocence Project has to pick their battles with the limited resources they have. But torturing a cat does not equal rape, and certainly does not allow anyone to predict that Avery would kill. Animal abuse is pretty ugly, but most prisoners don't have an absolutely clean record. (And he was never formally charged with the running the woman off the road incident, etc. Whether that incident is true or not, Avery had a very minor record before the false rape conviction) The Project has to be savvy about who they get out - my former classmate, Chris Ochoa, was an honors student before he was wrongly convicted of murder. Obviously the Project would choose him before investigating the potential innocence of a 5 time drug dealer or rapist. It's much better for their image. Same with Avery - it's just that we have hindsight and now know how serious of an indicator the cat was.

I cannot stand aside and have the motives or intent of the people in the Project questioned. It is upsetting to hear that "they should find something better to do" - especially when they find cases every day of a minority kid who was railroaded into confessing by police who had tunnel vision and just wanted to arrest someone, whose defense attorney didn't care, and who was convicted by an all white jury. If you spent just a little time looking at our "justice" system, you'd see that the poor, the minority, the mentally ill, the least able to cope are the ones that are wrongfully convicted and sentenced to life in prison or death. That isn't fair, and there are people who care enough to want to fix that. They should be commended, not condemned.
 
Thanks for all the info Ang, the distinction I was looking for about the bail is because I see many cases over and over again where bail is denied for various reasons and I know the laws vary from state to state.

Most of the posters here do support the innocence project including myself, I only made mention in my recent post to point out what a slap in the face it is to them as I'm sure they feel just as bad as anyone about this. I did call attention to the many cases we see continually that shouldn't have been for a variety of reasons an example of the one most recent and close to my heart;Nixzmary Brown in NYC.
 
>The pioneering academic study of innocent prisoners convicted of capital crimes was an article in the November, 1987 Stanford Law Review by Professors Hugo Bedau and Michael Radelet. They found that 23 innocent prisoners, from the beginning of the century through the publication date of the study, had been executed.<<

I would have to read this study myself to see how the innocence of these executed prisoners was determined. Was it just their opinion that they were innocent or was their innocence proven later in a court of law? I have found over the years that studyies can be rather subjective in some cases and made to read whichever way the researcher wants it to read. I'm still trying to decide if eggs are good for me or bad for me LOL! If true, 23 is a rather small number indeed. In any justice system errors will be made. There will be good attorneys and bad attorneys, good judges and bad judges, good cops/bad cops and sometimes the innocent will be falsely accused but I think that happens infrequently in our systems which by the way is the best in the world IMO. However I do not believe that it warrants doing away with the death penalty nor being lenient and liberal with the law.

>Texas in particular, has sentenced many people to death row, despite the proven fact that the defense attorney was drunk, on drugs or asleep. And they kill 'em then too. <

I'm sure that mistakes are made in other states besides Texas. Why did you chose that one?

I believe that people who are sentenced to death are entitled to appeals. That is the reason for it. If the convicted had a proven drunken attorney they have a basis for appeals. I think we have seen that time and again, even those who are obviously guilty have gone through 20 years of appeals through the court system. The simple fact that one's attorney may have fallen asleep doesn't mean the defendant is innocent anymore than a not-guilty beyond a reasonable doubt means that a defendant is innocent. Case in point: OJ Simpson. While a handful of innocent may be occasionally imprisioned there are many who get away scot free and are actually guilty. Our system offers many chances for the innocent to appeal their decisions especially in death penalty cases.


>Even if these men aren't angels, that doesn't mean they should be in prison or worse, dead, for a crime they didn't do. Thomas Jefferson - It's better to let 10 guilty men go free than to imprison one innocent man. That's the principles on which this country was built. <

I'm sure that will be a big comfort to Teresa Halbach's family. And I highly doubt that Thomas Jefferson would have envisioned a justice system like we have today where child molestors are let loose on unsuspecting citizens and murderers walk free. They had a death penalty back then and took care of the worst of the worse. Their justice system would hardly be looked upon as liberal by today's standards. In fact quite the opposite!

>For instance, Steven Avery was no angel. But he didn't rape that woman!! DNA MATCHED another man, a convicted rapist, who looked similar to Avery, who was in the area at the time. BTW - b/c the cops were so determined to frame Avery, this other guy was able to run around free, raping other women, for years after Avery was convicted. That should make us mad too. <

I highly doubt that the cops were hot to trot to FRAME Avery. Rather they had a woman who identified him twice as the rapist and Avery was well-known to the police in the area. I don't think it is unreasonable therefore to think that Avery was the likely suspect. Your statement makes me tend to think that you are not a friend to law-enforcement and have a low opinion of police officers. Regardless of whether or not Avery was falsely accused in this case I believe that the fact he was incarcerated for 18 years probably saved more than a few women's lives. I find that I have little or no sympathy for Steven Avery. What happened to him was one of the consequences of his previous actions. If you behave like an animal people will see you as one and therefore think of you first when they find their sheep slaughtered in the pasture.

I have read somewhere that Steven Avery and the actual man finally identified through DNA as the rapist were acquainted with each other. There are several things about this case that still make me wonder if Avery wasn't involved in this rape in some way. He may not have been but I think another trial was warranted not an automatic release of Avery. I have also read that another woman was raped by Avery after his release from prison but has not wanted to persue a criminal charge against him now that Avery has been arrested for the Halbach murder. She doesn't want to have to put herself through it. Has anyone else heard more about this? I'm trying to verify this information both about this other rape and his acquaintance with the other rapist.

>Finally, the Innocence Project has to pick their battles with the limited resources they have. But torturing a cat does not equal rape, and certainly does not allow anyone to predict that Avery would kill. <

I believe that torturing animals is an indicator of a lack of compassion and IS used as an indicator that a person may have problems with violence towards humans in the future. Jeffrey Dahmer also practiced on animals before he graduated to humans. I thought this connection was well-known? I know I've read several studies/articles about the connection.

> (And he was never formally charged with the running the woman off the road incident, etc. Whether that incident is true or not, Avery had a very minor record before the false rape conviction<

Well I guess your perception is quite a bit different than mine. I've read his record. He was imprisoned before he was convicted of that rape. This information can be verified through public record and I also have checked Avery's convictions on the Wisconsin Court System. If Avery was the most innocent-seeming applicant for the innocence project I shudder to think what the other applicants were like. From the crime library website:

"When he was 18 years old, he had broken into the Northern Frontier Bar in Gibson, Wisconsin, and stolen "two cases of beer, two sandwiches, a toolbox, and $14 in quarters."

This was hardly, on it's own, indicative of a future murderer and rapist however it was the beginning and Steven did not learn from this mistake.

"On March 23, 1981 he was convicted on two counts of burglary and sentenced to two years in prison. The sentence was stayed, and instead he was ordered to spend 10 months in the Manitowoc County jail, pay $1,399.85 in restitution, and placed on five-year's probation."

Perhaps instead of probation some jail time might have been in order. Because here we continue to read:

"Five months later Avery was charged with cruelty to animals for dousing a cat with gasoline and oil, throwing it in a bonfire, and watching it die. He claimed that he was there when the incident happened but had nothing to do with it. Nevertheless, his probation was revoked, and he served nine months in prison for that crime. "

Given another break did Avery join the Eagle Scouts and go to church every Sunday? Nope.

"In January 1985 Avery was charged with endangering safety and felon gun possession when he ran the wife of a part-time Manitowoc County sheriff off the road and pointed a rifle at her. When Avery spotted the woman's infant daughter in the backseat, he backed off. He was later sentenced to six years in prison for this crime."

According to this information Avery was convicted of running that woman off of the road. And she was the wife of sheriff. And he did prison time for that crime as well. This was BEFORE he was arrested for the rape. I think that law enforcement had good reason to believe that Steven Avery could have committed this crime and highly doubt they were trying to "frame" him. I'm interested as to why the innocence project thought that Steven Avery was so likely to be an innocent man and should we think that it wasn't until Avery was in prision that he learned to be a bad guy and rape, torture and murder women because he was angry at them and felt betrayed by the justice system?

>I cannot stand aside and have the motives or intent of the people in the Project questioned. It is upsetting to hear that "they should find something better to do" - especially when they find cases every day of a minority kid who was railroaded into confessing by police who had tunnel vision and just wanted to arrest someone, whose defense attorney didn't care, and who was convicted by an all white jury. If you spent just a little time looking at our "justice" system, you'd see that the poor, the minority, the mentally ill, the least able to cope are the ones that are wrongfully convicted and sentenced to life in prison or death. That isn't fair, and there are people who care enough to want to fix that. They should be commended, not condemned.<<

I can cannot stand aside while I hear the innocence project proclaim that they have no regrets in this case. Decency would require that they admit they made a mistake and then keep their mouths shut. A woman died a horrible death because of their actions and her family has to live with this for the rest of their lives. I find it appalling that a handful of college students think that they can do a better job than a judge, jury and licensed attorneys. I have no problem with the project existing and working with their projects. However at most all that they should get is a new trial for their applicants. For a judge to release a man like Steven Avery on the results of a project run by a handful of college students is appalling. The results are NOT reversible in this case.

I find it interesting that you are so focused on the police being the bad guys and the justice system oppressing the poor and the black man. That is not the case. I spend alot of time looking at our justice system and I find your statements to not be true and that you have a bias against law enforcement. This case is about Steven Avery. It is not about whether or not you think more people of color are incarcerated or whether only poor people to to jail etc. It's about a mistake in judgement that was made that resulted in a woman being dead. Plain and simple.


As the mother of a police officer I am well aware of how many criminals are let go on a daily basis and re-arrested and let loose again by a liberal justice system. About half of his time is spent on the streets and the other half in court observing the criminal justice system. I think just a listen of the daily news will tell us how many people are unjustly confined as compared to how many re-offending child molestors, rapists, drunk drivers etc. that continue to pile up a body count of the innocent.

Yes, I do think they could find something better to do with their time. Maybe it's just me but if I had been involved with this project I would be having trouble sleeping at night right now and probably would need to seek some counseling. And I would have resigned from the project and devoted my time in victim counseling or some other endeavor to try to make reparations for the harm I had helped to cause. But like I said. That's just me. I have read about both Steven Avery and Teresa Halbach. My daughter-in-law had met Teresa on several occasions and lived in the same dormitory on campus in Green Bay. She described Teresa to me as a very sweet sweet girl. I have no problem with having compassion for Teresa and absolutely none for Steven Avery. And if I had to choose, it wouldn't be the Steven Averys in the world I spend my time on.

Sherlockmom
 
>Most of the posters here do support the innocence project including myself, I only made mention in my recent post to point out what a slap in the face it is to them as I'm sure they feel just as bad as anyone about this.<


Just wondering Strach304 where you came up with those figures that most posters here support the innocence project? Curious.

Sherlockmom
 
I didn't do a head count Sherlockmom was just referring to the many opinions that were voiced here that support what they stand for is how I should have worded it and not the organization itself. Both points of view and everything in between has been discussed here previously anyway and whether for or against certain things stand out with Avery that many of us do agree on like his previous criminal record and I posted myself way back that his being in jail all those years probably prevented many crimes he would've committed. I also fully understood why LE considered him a likely suspect at the time. I do agree with just about everything you posted Sherlockmom as you can see from previous posts of mine but I don't think one bad apple (Avery) should spoil the cart. I'm still not convinced he didn't do it! :eek:

My understanding of the innocence project is to help people who have been wrongly convicted of a crime they didn't commit, so if I'm wrong in my understanding please excuse my ignorance and enlighten me. Another important aspect of a wrong conviction also shows that the true perpetrator is still free and that does noone any good either. I was one of the first, I admit to criticize the Innocence Project and complain about them even going to bat for Avery because imo there was the cat and the woman he tried to abduct and another incident I think where he exposed himself, clearly a man with issues. I do hope they are more careful in the future with who they choose to help since they all claim they're innocent and there are probably so many more cases of criminals not being convicted or caught of the crimes they've actually committed and gotten away with.
 
Just when you think you've heard the weirdest thing about them another icky moment arises. Avery's sister, Barb Janda, also Brendan Dassey's mother, was present when Steven purchased the handcuffs and leg shackles.

Also Halbach had complained that on previous visits to the junkyard Avery had answered the door wearing only a towel.

Heard this on the radio news this morning. I'm looking for story links and will post them when I find them.

Sherlockmom
 
>My understanding of the innocence project is to help people who have been wrongly convicted of a crime they didn't commit, so if I'm wrong in my understanding please excuse my ignorance and enlighten me. <


No need to excuse your ignorance as that would be insulting and I surely do not believe you are ignorant. The media is a curious thing and often the public is played like a fine fiddle.

While the stated purpose of this project is to free the innocent (and really, who is going to be against that?) there are political motivations underlying the real purpose of this group IMO. They have a right to it but I think that it should be considered that they used Steven Avery as a political prop. Steven posed for photo ops with various politicians and Avery's case was used to have new judicial laws passed in Wisconsin. Avery's case also brought the Innocence Project into the headlines. Publicity=more donations. Follow the money.

It was more than obvious that Avery's past was not mentioned in news stories at the time and downplayed. Since these details were a matter of public record and who would have better access to these records than law students in Madison? Why? You can draw your own conclusions.

It is my personal opinion that this project that is not by the way just a Wisconsin group, has an agenda that is more political in nature than altruistic. I believe that you will see this group more in the news once the death penalty issue comes to the forefront for the voters in Wisconsin.

They have a right to exist and to lobby for their political ends. I think that the public just has to be aware that the face presented to the media is just part of the story. Their motivations may not be just to free people wrongly accused. There are really so few of these cases that why do we need a group to do this? The American Justice system usually works pretty well on it's own.


I don't really want to spend time on this forum debating the project. It is what it is and I think it is pretty obvious to most people that a mistake was made. A very serious mistake. What may not be as obvious is the political motivations of the group and I believe they have a rather liberal agenda when it comes to the justice system. You won't see them lobbying for the death penalty or stricter penalities etc.

I just think that it is in bad taste for the group to keep defending itself over this case. To claim that they were fooled by Steven Avery is simple silly. They knew all about his past. It may just be that Avery was the best they had at the moment which illustrates that they really had to scrap the bottom of the barrel to find someone for this project. You can agree with me or not but that is my take on it.

I guess I was surprised that you said that most people on the forum were supportive of the project because I assumed that people who would follow a forum like this would lean more to the law and order side of these issues. From my experience, these types usually are not supportive of this group as they believe that they are working towards liberalizing our justice system even more than it already is and they believe that this will cause more innocent victims. I only signed up on this board very recently but I have been reading it for a long time now so I probably would not have participated in any survey that was conducted on this question. So I was just curious and that is why I questioned you.

Sherlockmom
 
Sherlockmom said:
. . .
I guess I was surprised that you said that most people on the forum were supportive of the project because I assumed that people who would follow a forum like this would lean more to the law and order side of these issues. From my experience, these types usually are not supportive of this group as they believe that they are working towards liberalizing our justice system even more than it already is and they believe that this will cause more innocent victims. . .
I can't speak for anyone but myself but here is my position: I am very much for law and order but that includes making sure that the best tools are used to help convict the guilty and not convict the innocent. If somone innocent does get convicted that means some guilty person is out running loose to thumb the nose at Law enforcement and commit more crimes. In cases where DNA was never used in spite of evidence being available for testng then I am in favor of having the testing done but I think the Avery case highlights the need to also think through all the evidence because sometimes a perp has a helper so DNA can not be the cure-all for possible mistaken convictions.
 
The article was published Mar. 9 and I must have missed this information. I didn't hear of it till this morning on the radio.

"The affidavit says Avery bought handcuffs and leg shackles at Intimate Treasures, an adult retail store on Washington Street in Manitowoc, on Oct. 9, 2005. A store employee said Avery was accompanied by his sister, Barb Janda, and that he paid cash for his purchase, according to the affidavit. "
http://www.htrnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060309/MAN0101/603090680/1358

Can this family be any creepier? I shouldn't be so judgmental. Maybe they were a birthday gift for Brendan.

I also ran across some information about the other alleged rape. Apparantly the complaint was filed in August 2004 in another county because of the ongoing lawsuit filed by Avery was considered a conflict of interest. There was a special prosecutor appointed but they didn't know if charges would be filed and were waiting to see what was going to develop in the Halbach case. I haven't found any updated articles so far referring to this other rape.

Sherlockmom
 
Sherlockmom said:
The article was published Mar. 9 and I must have missed this information. I didn't hear of it till this morning on the radio.

"The affidavit says Avery bought handcuffs and leg shackles at Intimate Treasures, an adult retail store on Washington Street in Manitowoc, on Oct. 9, 2005. A store employee said Avery was accompanied by his sister, Barb Janda, and that he paid cash for his purchase, according to the affidavit. "
http://www.htrnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060309/MAN0101/603090680/1358

Can this family be any creepier? I shouldn't be so judgmental. Maybe they were a birthday gift for Brendan.

I also ran across some information about the other alleged rape. Apparantly the complaint was filed in August 2004 in another county because of the ongoing lawsuit filed by Avery was considered a conflict of interest. There was a special prosecutor appointed but they didn't know if charges would be filed and were waiting to see what was going to develop in the Halbach case. I haven't found any updated articles so far referring to this other rape.

Sherlockmom



The following is from your article. Ya know, I am NOT blaming her employer, but it irks me that her employer did not take her safety into consideration. Seems to me that if she complained about him that they should have been a little more concerened for her and sent a male out there. I dont care if he asked for a female, that should of sent the hinky meter off in their minds and told him she was unavailable, and then sent a male. Also, she should have refused to go there anymore. NOT blaming her, but if one feels uncomfortable about a situation, one should go with thier feelings. WE all have to be more careful. Once again, dont take this wrong, I am NOT blaming the victim, just saying her employer should have shown more concern for the female employee's.

The affidavit to support the state's request on bail says Halbach had been to the Avery property numerous times in 2005 to take pictures for Auto Trader Magazine for which she worked as a freelance photographer. Halbach complained to her manager, Angela M. Schuster, that on previous trips to Avery's property he answered the door wearing only a towel, the affidavit says.

In the morning of Oct. 31, Avery called Auto Trader Magazine, represented himself as someone else and requested Halbach come to the salvage yard to photograph a vehicle, the affidavit says.
 
>The following is from your article. Ya know, I am NOT blaming her employer, but it irks me that her employer did not take her safety into consideration. Seems to me that if she complained about him that they should have been a little more concerened for her and sent a male out there. I dont care if he asked for a female, that should of sent the hinky meter off in their minds and told him she was unavailable, and then sent a male. Also, she should have refused to go there anymore. <


You are 100% right on Lostfaith. I can't imagine what that employer was thinking. It's true that Avery used his sister's name, B. Janda when making the call but the address was still Avery Rd. There should have been a note on that account that stated males to respond only.

Sometimes it is harder for young girls to stand up for themselves when it comes to their bosses. She may not have wanted to go out there but was afraid to lose her job or make a fuss.

Sherlockmom
 
That sister is just as pitiful as the rest of the family. What did she think Avery was going to do with the handcuffs, etc? If my son...I don't have a brother...wanted me to go into a shop with him to buy those types of things I would sure be asking some questions. I'll bet this family reeks of incest.

I'm all for the innocence program. There have been innocent people arrested and sentenced...especially before there was DNA testing. Some of those men have spent years in prison for a crime they didn't commit. Now when someone who was arrested years ago says he didn't do the crime they can run that DNA and it will answer one way or the other. I also know that all LE officers aren't honest for one reason or another and they do things to insure that they will win their cases....that isn't right and it really makes me angry.
 
> also know that all LE officers aren't honest for one reason or another and they do things to insure that they will win their cases....that isn't right and it really makes me angry.<


Bobbisangel, did you mean to say not all LE officers aren't honest? I don't think you meant to say what you did. I would think that most LE officers ARE honest.

They really have little to do with the actual winning of court cases except that they testify in court and have to make sure that the people they arrest are read their rights. It's the attorneys, prosecutors and district attorneys that make the cases in court.

Sherlockmom
 
I would like to think that I would have refused to go to the Auto Salvage place alone after being greeted (just once) by Steve Avery in a towel. I think Teresa went despite her instincts telling her not to go.

I think that we all have gone against our instincts at some point in our lives. Most of us just have been lucky that nothing this severe happened.

I think that all businesses should have a policy not to send a woman out alone on any assignment. It just isn't safe.
 
Bobbisangel said:
That sister is just as pitiful as the rest of the family. What did she think Avery was going to do with the handcuffs, etc? If my son...I don't have a brother...wanted me to go into a shop with him to buy those types of things I would sure be asking some questions. I'll bet this family reeks of incest.

I'm all for the innocence program. There have been innocent people arrested and sentenced...especially before there was DNA testing. Some of those men have spent years in prison for a crime they didn't commit. Now when someone who was arrested years ago says he didn't do the crime they can run that DNA and it will answer one way or the other. I also know that all LE officers aren't honest for one reason or another and they do things to insure that they will win their cases....that isn't right and it really makes me angry.

Bobbisangel,
Think your character analysis of B Janda is so true.......totally pitiful & whine whine whine....when SA bought cuffs & shackles did she think he was going to play cops & robbers???? This is one nutty family!

After she knew SA bought them why not have a family meeting..... Why not sit her kids down & say look Uncle Steve is a different type of guy / he was in prison / yeah he wasn't guilty but sat in prison for many years & who knows where his head is at??? Today when we were in town he bought Cuffs & Shackles & only the lord knows what he is going to do with them. So I want ya all to be careful & if ya see anything let me know ASAP! Thats what a caring Mom would of done.

I think the family was planning on getting in on his settlement......all treaded on thin ice / was to be bought off by SA. He was a control freak & manipulator & would of gladly used whatever measures he needed to buy the families silence & use the all mighty $$$ over anyones head who refused to adore him.
 
strach304 said:
Thanks for all the info Ang, the distinction I was looking for about the bail is because I see many cases over and over again where bail is denied for various reasons and I know the laws vary from state to state.

Most of the posters here do support the innocence project including myself, I only made mention in my recent post to point out what a slap in the face it is to them as I'm sure they feel just as bad as anyone about this. I did call attention to the many cases we see continually that shouldn't have been for a variety of reasons an example of the one most recent and close to my heart;Nixzmary Brown in NYC.
Hi strach - that's the thing about bail - usually only a true flight risk is going to be denied - someone that has proven they will flee when charged b/c they've done it before. I'm guessing that WI laws are very stringent - i.e. bail MUST be offered b/c Dahmer got it. WI also has bounty hunter laws, I believe that they are highly discouraged and their hands are tied to bring people in (vs. other states where they act like untrained LE and have killed people while trying to capture them). The other thing is - not that I have seen in on appeal, but as a general rule - criminal defendants are at a serious disadvantage if they have to sit in jail vs. making bail. So denying bail calls "fair trial" into question, and causes problems in that regard. It's not a "poor guy" type of thing - it's just a factor that judges must consider.

I absolutely agree the sentiment about cases that shouldn't have been... however, I think this one is seriously different, in that I believe it could not have been predicted. A prior felon with an outstanding warrant, a child in a home already investigated for child abuse, heck - for me, it's predictable when mom's new boyfriend (a criminal) either kills, rapes or batters her child - it's a pattern. Steven Avery was not - although i'm sure there are people who beg to differ.

As you see, I'm protective of the Innocence Project, but I've thought about why for a while. Bottom line - I fear my government more than I fear my neighbor. I'm much more likely to lose a battle with the government, where my life and liberty is at stake, than I am to lose a battle with a criminal. I don't believe in giving up my rights (and the rights of others) for a false sense of safety.
 
SherlockMom -

First, I stand corrected on the running the woman off the road charge - you are right. I believe the flashing incidents were the ones that were not charged. And, I did say "minor record" when I should have considered my perspective vs. others - I'm used to long rap sheets, and big felonies. I downplayed the incidents b/c I think they were minor as compared to murder, and not predictive of murder. I see where others would have a different perspective.

>Texas in particular, has sentenced many people to death row, despite the proven fact that the defense attorney was drunk, on drugs or asleep. And they kill 'em then too. <
I'm sure that mistakes are made in other states besides Texas. Why did you chose that one?

I cited Texas b/c it's a state known in particular for its loose justice system with regard to the death penalty. And yes, appeals are allowed, but most of them hinge on what happened originally in the trial court - i.e. for the purposes of appeal, judges must assume that the jury believed all of the facts that went against a defendant. And b/c of the deferential standard of review - it's hard to get the wrongful conviction overturned on appeal. And people writing and arguing these appeals aren't the top lawyers, and ... well, I could go on and on. The appellate system isn't a functioning safeguard right now.

I know of what I speak. I'm currently working for an appellate judge - 7th circuit court of appeals - that's one step below the US Supreme Court. I have written opinions, which b/c of the factors above, do not give me room to overturn the convictions.

> Your statement makes me tend to think that you are not a friend to law-enforcement and have a low opinion of police officers. <

This is a very personal, very conclusive statement. On the contrary, I turned down some very lucrative corporate law offers last summer to volunteer my services as an intern for a District Attorney's office. I still consider becoming an Assistant District Attorney, although the money I would make would only be a third of what I will make at my current firm.

However, I have a low opinion of people in positions of trust who misuse the trust (DA's, police, congresspeople, whoever). I believe that the cops in Avery's initial case rushed to judgment, it is a fact that they rigged the lineup - that was one of the findings of the court which, in addition to DNA, led to overturning his conviction. That's one reason his lawsuit against the County was so strong. (Prior to him killing Teresa).

>Finally, the Innocence Project has to pick their battles with the limited resources they have. But torturing a cat does not equal rape, and certainly does not allow anyone to predict that Avery would kill. <

I believe that torturing animals is an indicator of a lack of compassion and IS used as an indicator that a person may have problems with violence towards humans in the future. Jeffrey Dahmer also practiced on animals before he graduated to humans. I thought this connection was well-known? I know I've read several studies/articles about the connection.

You're right about the studies, but it's a HINDSIGHT predictor. There are a lot of cat killers that don't grow up to be people killers. This is cart-before-the-horse logic. Was the Innocence Project supposed to say "Well, he didn't rape the woman, but he killed a cat, so we can't get him out of prison because he might kill a person!?"

>I find it appalling that a handful of college students think that they can do a better job than a judge, jury and licensed attorneys. I have no problem with the project existing and working with their projects. However at most all that they should get is a new trial for their applicants. For a judge to release a man like Steven Avery on the results of a project run by a handful of college students is appalling.<

These are law students, not college students. Law students supervised by licensed attorneys, who are writing appeals, motions, and briefs which are then argued in court, with a District Attorney on the opposing side, all supervised by a judge. OR - in front of an appellate court, etc.

A new trial could not have been decided here. It would violate double jeopardy, another important constitutional right. The state is not allowed to try someone twice for the same crime. That's pretty basic.

I guess I can't help but be offended and confused by your language. I had an extremely successful six year career in a Fortune 50 company prior to going to law school. I'm older than a good number of Assistant District Attorneys, and I would expect respect from the court. Your statements also don't seem to acknowledge that DNA science was at work here, that the County DA had to assent to the release, or even to respect the judge's decision. It seems like you believe a bunch of 20 year olds walked into the courtroom and sprung Avery.

>This case is about Steven Avery. It is not about whether or not you think more people of color are incarcerated or whether only poor people to to jail etc. It's about a mistake in judgement that was made that resulted in a woman being dead. Plain and simple.<

Here's the difference, and I guess one of the ways law school and law practice changes a person. We tend to remove ourselves from the emotion and passion of the case at hand, and look at the big picture. That's why lawyers can be defense attorneys - and why others condemn them. I've tried to be careful about that, particularly on this forum, and with Teresa's case in particular. That's also what bothers me about people blaming the Project, and not Avery exclusively, for her murder. (Oh, and just the project, and not the DA, LE, Judge, etc - more who were not responsible for Teresa's death, but were actively involved in her release)

I've been trying to address the big picture, and if my compassion for Teresa and her family is not clear enough - I hope they forgive me. When I post on this board, I usually try to confine my comments to the law in Wisconsin to the best of my knowledge, and not to personal comments or sentiments.
 
Thanks Ang50, that's something I've been curious about and have tried to learn about by the cases I see. I have always read your posts in the Christine Rudy forum so I know you always approach and explain the law aspects of the case first and foremost and then give personal opinions. Does DP qualified charges have anything to do with bail denial and also death qualified states? Examples of some high profile ones you may be familiar with are the DC snipers, Scott Peterson (flight risk for sure) and Dandridge and Gray who killed the Harvey family, states are Ca. and Va. I know Wis. does not and can they deny bail if the charged felon is in custody due to a probation violation? TIA :D
 
strach304 said:
Thanks Ang50, that's something I've been curious about and have tried to learn about by the cases I see. I have always read your posts in the Christine Rudy forum so I know you always approach and explain the law aspects of the case first and foremost and then give personal opinions. Does DP qualified charges have anything to do with bail denial and also death qualified states? Examples of some high profile ones you may be familiar with are the DC snipers, Scott Peterson (flight risk for sure) and Dandridge and Gray who killed the Harvey family, states are Ca. and Va. I know Wis. does not and can they deny bail if the charged felon is in custody due to a probation violation? TIA :D
I think that death qualified can be part of the factors for flight risk - it would make sense. But due to the constitutional aspects, I don't think that any state could have a law on the books saying death qualified charges automatically equals no bail (or any one circumstance equals no bail)

Now - the Probation/Parole violations are very interesting. Those are P.O. holds, and no bail is required. Here's why - since you've been "let out" b/c you've agreed to certain conditions (no alcohol, weapons, etc) and now it looks like you've violated that condition, you will then have to serve your sentence. As far as I can tell, they can hold you for a good while.

I have a friend who was a WI Probation/Parole agent before Law School - I'll ask her what the process is after they put you on a hold. She'll know.
 
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