Witness accounts

[LambChop]

Not if he was still facing him and engaged in the fight. Now, if the evidence shows that TM was shot in the back, then ITA that TM was not a threat and that won't look good for a self-defense claim. (Although I am reminded of the Florida SYG case where the killer chased his victim for more than a block and then stabbed him to death; the attack was caught on surveillance video.)

If TM was standing and they were still fighting how could that be TM's fault. In order for GZ to get up TM had to stand and back off giving GZ the perfect opportunity to tell him who he was and LE was on the way while he was getting up himself. I don't think GZ ever told TM anything. I think GZ was more focused on trying to keep TM from getting away. I personally don't think TM was able to fully stand before he was shot. jmo

 

[LambChop]

Not if he was still facing him and engaged in the fight. Now, if the evidence shows that TM was shot in the back, then ITA that TM was not a threat and that won't look good for a self-defense claim. (Although I am reminded of the Florida SYG case where the killer chased his victim for more than a block and then stabbed him to death; the attack was caught on surveillance video.)

Wasn't this case about criminal activity agains the person doing the stabbing? TM was not engaged in any criminal activity against GZ when GZ pursued him. I don't think that case can be compared to this one. I also think the witness statements will be very important. jmo

 

[gxm]

If TM was standing and they were still fighting how could that be TM's fault. In order for GZ to get up TM had to stand and back off giving GZ the perfect opportunity to tell him who he was and LE was on the way while he was getting up himself. I don't think GZ ever told TM anything. I think GZ was more focused on trying to keep TM from getting away. I personally don't think TM was able to fully stand before he was shot. jmo

If they were fighting over the gun, GZ could have fallen back (with the gun in hand) from the "pull" momentum of the struggle just as the "release" momentum sent TM into an upright position. As the person on top, TM could have been counterbalancing the backwards motion which would, at the moment he was shot, put him in a more vertical position.

That said, I agree with your speculation that TM may not have been fully upright at the time he was shot. Hopefully, once we have it, trajectory will give us more insight into that.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[gxm]

Wasn't this case about criminal activity agains the person doing the stabbing? TM was not engaged in any criminal activity against GZ when GZ pursued him. I don't think that case can be compared to this one. I also think the witness statements will be very important. jmo

Yes, but the killer was not in mortal danger. He was only in danger of having his property stolen.

ETA: My point was that, apparently, FL law allows for someone to pursue while "standing" one's ground. IMO, it makes no sense but that's the law.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[pcrum12]

Originally Posted by gxm
Thank you for posting this. From what I've been able to piece together from the various accounts, and without the gun forensics, I think TM was standing over GZ when GZ shot him. I think TM then took a couple of steps down the hill and fell forward to the ground.

Pure speculation, JMO, OMO, and

If that were true TM was no longer a "threat" to GZ. I'm curious to see GZ's statements because I'm wondering at any time did GZ ever yell out to TM, "I'm Neighborhood Watch"????? jmo

BBM: What? How do you get that from what the original post stated? Not being snarkey, just trying to figure it out. TIA

ETA: Never mind I see you answered my question already lol. However, I have to say I disagree. JMO.

 

[vlpate]

Not if he was still facing him and engaged in the fight. Now, if the evidence shows that TM was shot in the back, then ITA that TM was not a threat and that won't look good for a self-defense claim. (Although I am reminded of the Florida SYG case where the killer chased his victim for more than a block and then stabbed him to death; the attack was caught on surveillance video.)

There is, by all accounts, including the much cited funeral director, no question that he was shot in the chest.

"Richard Kurtz of Roy Mizell and Kurtz Funeral Home in Fort Lauderdale said there appeared to be a gunshot wound in Martin’s upper chest area, but he received the body after the autopsy was completed so it was difficult to tell whether he had other injuries. He also could not determine the bullet’s entry or exit point."
HLN LINK

 

[Spoiler]

It is obvious that GZ was attacked by SOMEBODY. And several of the "Eye wittnesses" were simply "Ear wittnesses" and didn't really see anything. The police were there just SECONDS after the shot. GZ didn't break his nose and gash his head in just a few seconds ,,, right ... He was attacked. TM was beating GZ so badly that no one would even step in to stop it ... they all called the police... 911... GZ even asked them to call the police immediately after the struggle. Doesn't sound like a cold blooded murderer does it? A murderer doesn't yell ... call the 911 .... Everyone here is assuming that GZ followed TM. I don't think he had the time. He answered several questions the police had after he said OK(he wouldn't follow) Listen to the tape.... TM could have been home long before this all started. All these assumptions ... <modsnip>

 

[mikeysmommom]

Mary Crutcher's 911 call is the fourth or fifth call. She's the one that tells her roomie *Selma* to get inside. She also tells the dispatcher its a *black guy* that's standing up over the person laying on the grass. Compare her story with what she now claims she saw...Far different...imo

Trayvon Martin Case 911 Calls Time Stamped part 2 (post gunshot) - YouTube

IIRC Mary and her roommate story changed then they sold it to the National Enquirer April 9th edition. I do not think their second story will be taken seriously by a jury because the 911 tape tells a different story.As far as any of the witnesses "thinking "the screams came from a younger man unless they could see who was screaming it is just an opinion not a fact.JMO

 

[suspicious1]

I think there are more witnesses that we have not heard from yet.

One of them may be the Guy in the background on the 911 call that contains the gunshot. The one that can be heard saying "they need to get here now" or something like that. I just have a feeling that he watched the struggle in progress and may be able to provide more details as to who was doing what during the struggle.

JMO

 

[vlpate]

I think there are more witnesses that we have not heard from yet.

One of them may be the Guy in the background on the 911 call that contains the gunshot. The one that can be heard saying "they need to get here now" or something like that. I just have a feeling that he watched the struggle in progress and may be able to provide more details as to who was doing what during the struggle.

JMO

"Jeremy", right? Good point. The woman on the phone kept telling him to get down. The yelling went on a good 45 seconds, it would seem someone saw more than what we've heard thus far.

 

[vlpate]

IIRC Mary and her roommate story changed then they sold it to the National Enquirer April 9th edition. I do not think their second story will be taken seriously by a jury because the 911 tape tells a different story.As far as any of the witnesses "thinking "the screams came from a younger man unless they could see who was screaming it is just an opinion not a fact.JMO

Why on earth would a serious witness taint their testimony before a trial. Calculated, methinks.

 

[suspicious1]

"Jeremy", right? Good point. The woman on the phone kept telling him to get down. The yelling went on a good 45 seconds, it would seem someone saw more than what we've heard thus far.

I think he may have been looking out the window the whole time.. I wonder when exactly he said "they need to get here now." Was it before or after the gunshot?

 

[who]

It is obvious that GZ was attacked by SOMEBODY. And several of the "Eye wittnesses" were simply "Ear wittnesses" and didn't really see anything. The police were there just SECONDS after the shot.
...

I've done some work on this, and I think LE arrived at the *complex* at 7:17, but were not actually on the scene then. By spending some time with the 911 calls, I have deduced it to be about 9:19:30.

There is one 911 call in particular where (the frantic woman) notes the police are there, but they are coming to the wrong area. Literally seconds after the shot, another 911 caller notes two men walking - with flashlights -- I think that was the neighbor.

All along I pegged the police arrival time *on scene* at 7:17, as most of us did.

I now think it was 2 minutes later.

 

[vlpate]

I think he may have been looking out the window the whole time.. I wonder when exactly he said "they need to get here now." Was it before or after the gunshot?

It was before the gunshots. They were upstairs.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO0oyDFS4Jo&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO0oyDFS4Jo&feature=related[/ame]

 

[Elley Mae]

http://cfnews13.com/content/news/cf...ticles/cfn/2012/5/7/no_zimmerman_no_surp.html

Zimmerman is not expected to be at Tuesday's hearing, scheduled for 1:30 p.m. Neither is his attorney, Mark O'Mara, or special prosecutor Angela Corey.
Instead, the arraignment deals with paperwork being filed to try and protect the names of witnesses in the case.

O'Mara said once that happens, much of the state's evidence in the case will be available.

 

[pcrum12]

It is obvious that GZ was attacked by SOMEBODY. And several of the "Eye wittnesses" were simply "Ear wittnesses" and didn't really see anything. The police were there just SECONDS after the shot. GZ didn't break his nose and gash his head in just a few seconds ,,, right ... He was attacked. TM was beating GZ so badly that no one would even step in to stop it ... they all called the police... 911... GZ even asked them to call the police immediately after the struggle. Doesn't sound like a cold blooded murderer does it? A murderer doesn't yell ... call the 911 .... Everyone here is assuming that GZ followed TM. I don't think he had the time. He answered several questions the police had after he said OK(he wouldn't follow) Listen to the tape.... TM could have been home long before this all started. All these assumptions ... <modsnip>

:rocker:

 

[rotterdam]

There is, by all accounts, including the much cited funeral director, no question that he was shot in the chest.

"Richard Kurtz of Roy Mizell and Kurtz Funeral Home in Fort Lauderdale said there appeared to be a gunshot wound in Martin’s upper chest area, but he received the body after the autopsy was completed so it was difficult to tell whether he had other injuries. He also could not determine the bullet’s entry or exit point."
HLN LINK

I doubt if there was an exit wound with a hollow point bullet. LE did find the casing but not the bullet at the site IIRC. We need the autopsy report so bad. Hate to rely on the funeral director's observations.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Here is a good video of the 13yr old witness telling his story.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...essed-part-of-Trayvon-Zimmerman-confrontation

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I find it strange that this pitbull gets loose at the time Zimmerman has to use his pistol that he got to protect himself from the same kind of dog.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...essed-part-of-Trayvon-Zimmerman-confrontation

 

[AJ Noiter]

I've done some work on this, and I think LE arrived at the *complex* at 7:17, but were not actually on the scene then. By spending some time with the 911 calls, I have deduced it to be about 9:19:30.

There is one 911 call in particular where (the frantic woman) notes the police are there, but they are coming to the wrong area. Literally seconds after the shot, another 911 caller notes two men walking - with flashlights -- I think that was the neighbor.

All along I pegged the police arrival time *on scene* at 7:17, as most of us did.

I now think it was 2 minutes later.

Aha, this is where I read this! Thank you! Now if I can remember where I said I would look for my source regarding this lol.