Witness accounts

[LambChop]

He should have kept walking. Seven minutes is an awfully long time to travel a football field, at the most. The timeline is going to be a big part of this case.

Still wondering if that little soon to be step brother is going to be called as a witness. It will be interesting to see what he says when asked, "how long had you known Trayvon"? Tracy was only separated a few weeks from his wife when the shooting occurred. He, hopefully, didn't know his mom's fiance that well.

I believe their divorce had just become final and that is why she is referred to as his ex-wife and not his wife that he is separated from. He could have been separated for awhile because it seems as if TM had been to Sanford with his Dad a few times and BG seemed to know TM well enough to think of him affectionately as her son.

As far as TM being followed he probably did what most people do when that happens. They duck into a store, a place of business, a restaurant, some place to get away from the person who is following. I think it is a normal reaction considering the alternative which was running and being visible in that wide open area. He had no idea who GZ was. And we know TM was afraid to run, he as much as said so. jmo

 

[stmarysmead]

Zimmerman shouldn't have interfered.

What bearing or relevance does the amount of time Brandi's son knew Trayvon have on this case? Or Tracy Martin's relationship with Brandi, for that matter.

Everything might have relevance. I have seen many questions as to why There was no concern that Tm did not make it back from the store. Also, if TM was so close to HOUSE of the new girlfriend of his father's ..and police came, ambulance, mortuary, neighbors etc...did the friend waiting for him hear nothing...not look out?

That is strange. did no one wonder where TM was at all?

This is relevant because it goes to the credibility of the story that TM just ran out for a few minutes to buy Skittles. In a trial where a man's life is at stake, nobody's story can just be politely accepted.

This is not a dinner party.

Anyone have an answer and link from a credible source as to why someone who just ran out for Skittles was not missed? Or if the friend was waiting patiently in an apt SO CLOSE..remember the GF said TM said he was very close to "home"...why did no look out at the commotion? Neighbors were emptying out of houses! Was the gf's son even there?

Or did no one expect TM back that night? I never go to bed without checking my kids. This was not a huge mansion. Did no one miss TM that night

And if not, why the discrepancy? Is the skittle story true?

Every part of every statement will be examined and parsed...if not on blogs then by GZ's excellent attorneys. Anyone able to answer these queries with actual evidence?

 

[liedetector]

How tragic that GZ's cries for help went unanswered. This whole tragedy might have been avoided if TM's beating of GZ had just been stopped by other onookers.

BBM. What would be even more tragic is if the cries for help were those of a teen who had just turned 17 three weeks prior, as I believe they were, and no one made a single move to help him.

How could Trayvon have been beating GZ to just this side of diapers, and at the same time have been using his hands to try and smother him (all in a matter of about 60 seconds), did Trayvon have 4 arms? (If so, I didn't see that in the autopsy report...) And if Trayvon had his hands over GZ's mouth, why weren't the screams for help at all muffled, or even interrupted? Based on what we know of George's story(ies) via proxy, I don't find it logical that the one with the boo boos was screaming bloody murder, it was the one trying not to get shot, and he was silenced by a bullet mid-scream..




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[stmarysmead]

"Based on what we know of George's story(ies) via proxy, I don't find it logical that the one with the boo boos was screaming bloody murder, "

I do find it logical that a man who had just had his nose broken (a very painful injury) and was having his head beaten into concrete would "scream bloody murder." Why should TM scream...when he was getting the best of the attack. Even the witness who was negative to Gz admitted he looked beaten to a pulp.

TM never knew Gz had a gun IMO...or this fight would have never started. He was NOT screaming bloody murder because he saw a gun...witnesses have him ON Top ...so TM never saw a thing. He would not have been fighting with a man if he knew that man was armed. And if GZ had pulled the gun...I believe an intelligent young man like TM would have stood there till the police arrived.

It makes no sense that the gun came into play until the shot that took TM's life and may have saved GZ's.

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[vlpate]

I believe their divorce had just become final and that is why she is referred to as his ex-wife and not his wife that he is separated from. He could have been separated for awhile because it seems as if TM had been to Sanford with his Dad a few times and BG seemed to know TM well enough to think of him affectionately as her son.

As far as TM being followed he probably did what most people do when that happens. They duck into a store, a place of business, a restaurant, some place to get away from the person who is following. I think it is a normal reaction considering the alternative which was running and being visible in that wide open area. He had no idea who GZ was. And we know TM was afraid to run, he as much as said so. jmo

Just going by what is in MSM:
Trayvon Martin's father recalls moments with his son

By Jeff Weiner
The Orlando Sentinel staff

""He is a very good father," Stanley told the Sentinel. She said she and Martin split up just weeks before Trayvon's death."

 

[Sensei]

"Based on what we know of George's story(ies) via proxy, I don't find it logical that the one with the boo boos was screaming bloody murder, "

I do find it logical that a man who had just had his nose broken (a very painful injury) and was having his head beaten into concrete would "scream bloody murder." Why should TM scream...when he was getting the best of the attack. Even the witness who was negative to Gz admitted he looked beaten to a pulp.

TM never knew Gz had a gun IMO...or this fight would have never started. He was NOT screaming bloody murder because he saw a gun...witnesses have him ON Top ...so TM never saw a thing. He would not have been fighting with a man if he knew that man was armed. And if GZ had pulled the gun...I believe an intelligent young man like TM would have stood there till the police arrived.

It makes no sense that the gun came into play until the shot that took TM's life and may have saved GZ's.

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Based on what we know from the autopsey report, it appears highly unlikely that Trayvon was shot while sitting astraddle GZ and attempting to bang his head since the gunshot was directly front to back at intermediate range....
so please explain how a shot went directly straight through from front to back, not in an upward trajectory, and how GZ managed to get enough separation from TM that the shot was from intermediate range, how did he get even 2 to 4 inches of separation from the gun to Travon, let alone 5 or 6 to 10 inches.... this is what I would like to know....do you think maybe he held the gun up in the air to get a straight through shot during the struggle?

I don't think Trayvon was shot while sitting on GZ, not from that information. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[jjenny]

Based on what we know from the autopsey report, it appears highly unlikely that Trayvon was shot while sitting astraddle GZ and attempting to bang his head since the gunshot was directly front to back at intermediate range....
so please explain how a shot went directly straight through from front to back, not in an upward trajectory, and how GZ managed to get enough separation from TM that the shot was from intermediate range, how did he get even 2 to 4 inches of separation from the gun to Travon, let alone 5 or 6 to 10 inches.... this is what I would like to know....do you think maybe he held the gun up in the air to get a straight through shot during the struggle?

I don't think Trayvon was shot while sitting on GZ, not from that information. IMO JMHO and stuff.

Are you sure "front to back" excludes an upward trajectory? The bullet never exited. To make any conclusions, we need an expert to explain what the autopsy means regarding trajectory of the bullet.

 

[detectiveconan]

Hmm..so from hearing all of these witness statements it appears there was a fight at some point.TM probably was on top of GZ at a certain time but not the whole time. TM probably ruffed GZ up a bit then tried to retreat but Zimmerman was mad that he just got his butt whooped and wasn't having it. He must've felt castrated and wanted to make himself feel like a man again. So as TM was getting up to leave GZ pulled out his gun and started pointing it at him. TM would be terrified at that point, that is why we hear the crying/yelling.MC and her roommate did state they only heard someone yelling nothing else.

And was TM's body laying completely flat on the ground or was it more like in a prayer position face down?Because if the gun went off at the time GZ claims Trayvon was straddling him, why would his body lay completely flat? Wouldn't his legs be kind of bent or folded? jmo

Sorry if this is ot..

 

[Sensei]

Are you sure "front to back" excludes an upward trajectory? The bullet never exited. To make any conclusions, we need an expert to explain what the autopsy means regarding trajectory of the bullet.

I am reasonably certain that straight through means precisely that straight through and not upward, there was no exit. I am reasonably sure that if the bullet had taken an upward trajectory it would say that, it does not it says straight through....My opinion, and subject to change if there is an expert who can explain how straight through actually means upward.

 

[Sensei]

Are you sure "front to back" excludes an upward trajectory? The bullet never exited. To make any conclusions, we need an expert to explain what the autopsy means regarding trajectory of the bullet.

The entrance wound was in the left chest through the rt ventricle, and the rt lower lobe of the lung where the fragments were recovered, that to me indicates a straight horizontal path of flight, physiologically it makes sense, because that is the alignment of internal organs, and much deviation to an upward path and there would be bone, clavicle, and shoulder, collar ect. so I believe that the autopsy report is exact, the path was straight and horizontal through the mentioned tissues with no exit. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[jjenny]

The entrance wound was in the left chest through the rt ventricle, and the rt lower lobe of the lung where the fragments were recovered, that to me indicates a straight horizontal path of flight, physiologically it makes sense, because that is the alignment of internal organs, and much deviation to an upward path and there would be bone, clavicle, and shoulder, collar ect. so I believe that the autopsy report is exact, the path was straight and horizontal through the mentioned tissues with no exit. IMO JMHO and stuff.

I don't believe they were standing up. I believe Zimmerman was the one on the ground and on his back, so had Martin gotten up, it would take Zimmerman time to get up from the ground position. How would he manage to both get up and shoot from a close distance?

 

[LambChop]

Just going by what is in MSM:
Trayvon Martin's father recalls moments with his son

By Jeff Weiner
The Orlando Sentinel staff

""He is a very good father," Stanley told the Sentinel. She said she and Martin split up just weeks before Trayvon's death."

So what should we believe? In another article it said his ex-wife. TM seemed to know BG so well that it seems like they had known each other for awhile. Maybe they were in the talking stage of separation and he finally decided to move out. Another mystery. jmo

 

[Sensei]

I don't believe they were standing up. I believe Zimmerman was the one on the ground and on his back, so had Martin gotten up, it would take Zimmerman time to get up from the ground position. How would he manage to both get up and shoot from a close distance?

And therein you have touched on the other bit of information that I find is in total disagreement with the story that George Zimmerman tells, I can think of no way at all that the gunshot could be of intermediate distance in the position that is described. While checking the parameters for an intermediate distance gunshot wound, the closest that I could find on distance was 3 inches from the end of the barrel, that would mean that the gun and George's hand would have to be far enough back so that the barrel of the gun was at the very least 3 inches and most forensic texts say 6 inches.

I find that distance to be completely incompatible with a struggle with a person on top of another person for a horizontal gunshot directly thorough the chest at intermediate range...contact or very close contact, but the intermediate range strains it to the breaking point...IMO

The “Forensic Investigation Handbook: An Introduction to the Collection, Preservation, Analysis, and Presentation of Evidence” by Michael Fitting Karagiozis and Richard Sqaglio states on p. 139:


Intermediate range (6-8 inches to 1.5-3.5 feet): This is too far for soot to travel so there is no fouling, but hot fragments of burning propellant (gunpowder) follow the bullet to the victim and produce stippling by causing pinpoint burns around the entrance wound. Of the two types of propellant, “ball” and “flake,” the former will produce stippling at a greater distance.

most say 6 inches, but I did find one that said 3, but imo even 3 inches from the barrel of the gun in the position described just strains credulity for me, I can't believe that it could be done in that manner, if the person was in fact attacking and banging someone's head against the ground....(never mind how much problem I have with that statement after seeing the injuries) but it is of course JMHO and stuff.

 

[Lovelymountains]

There are many real cases of children and adults who've fought their attacker without DNA being found beneath their fingernails.

You might be correct. Could you please give me a link which describes these cases? TIA

 

[Lovelymountains]

My apologies, I saw someone else speaking about Mr. Zimmerman and figured you were too. I know "John" said he couldn't make out the races, but he did say what colors the individuals were wearing - which is more than I could've done. Even in the brightly lit 7-11 video Mr. Martin's hoodie looks to be a dark green color to me.

There is an old saying, "In the dark, all cats are gray."

 

[Lovelymountains]

Have you ever tried? It's not hard to grab a human head - even with one hand. He wouldn't have had to lift it very far - in fact, he couldn't as the neck would only bend so far. As I've stated since long before autopsy came out - no bruises on Mr. Martin is proof for the defense, not the prosecution.



Not necessarily. You can squeeze a head between the palms of your hands as you're beating it into the ground. Where would the finger marks be then? Again, no injuries on Mr. Martin is proof for the defense. I have not seen a single statement made that makes me conclude that Mr. Martin should have -any- injuries. Some saliva from placing his hand over Mr. Zimmerman's mouth - possibly, but I didn't see that it was even tested and that's not an injury anyway.


Edit: In fact, the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that it would be WRONG for Mr. Martin to have any injuries from beating someone's head into the ground. If it were ME doing it I would place the heal of my hands into the temples and extend my fingers to the top of the head. You can easily grip a head just like that and you would not have any injuries at all.

Just as a point of interest, have you actually ever grabbed someone's head in the way you described and pounded their head into cement? I not saying that what you describe is impossible, but I don't claim to have ever done it or know how.

 

[vlpate]

You might be correct. Could you please give me a link which describes these cases? TIA

I would be glad to on another thread if you can find one where it would be on topic.

 

[Sensei]

Just as a point of interest, have you actually ever grabbed someone's head in the way you described and pounded their head into cement? I not saying that what you describe is impossible, but I don't claim to have ever done it or know how.

Neck muscles are a great deal stronger than many people think, and I find it inconceivable that you could easily do that, if the person were fighting you. The only experiene I have though is trying to hold a child's head still so that a cut over the eye could be cleaned up and examined, and it is not nearly as easy as you would think, I think a full grown adult would give you a real fight twisting their head and moving, and I also find it pretty incredible that when someone was attempting to bang your head against anything that you would not manage to get in one good punch or have even one defensive mark on you or bruise on them....but that's just me...IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[vlpate]

Hmm..so from hearing all of these witness statements it appears there was a fight at some point.TM probably was on top of GZ at a certain time but not the whole time. TM probably ruffed GZ up a bit then tried to retreat but Zimmerman was mad that he just got his butt whooped and wasn't having it. He must've felt castrated and wanted to make himself feel like a man again. So as TM was getting up to leave GZ pulled out his gun and started pointing it at him. TM would be terrified at that point, that is why we hear the crying/yelling.MC and her roommate did state they only heard someone yelling nothing else.

I don't recall MC hearing "yelling", just moaning. Is this in the new documents?

And was TM's body laying completely flat on the ground or was it more like in a prayer position face down?Because if the gun went off at the time GZ claims Trayvon was straddling him, why would his body lay completely flat? Wouldn't his legs be kind of bent or folded? jmo

Sorry if this is ot..[/QUOTE]

 

[Lovelymountains]

Every injury GZ sustained, either from a fall or an assualt (we have no proof of either) were SUPERFICIAL ABRASIONS & CUTS.

GZ had no documented broken bones, bruising on his hands, forearms, shoulders, torso or legs and feet. He had no contusions (goose eggs) or concussion.

Perspective & Proportion Please.

George Zimmerman had the superficial abrasion on the right side of his nose. I have seen no statement that TM was left handed as he would almost have to be to have punched GZ on the right side. I still don't understand how, if TM had his hand over GZ's nose and mouth as GZ's brother claims, and he was having difficulty breathing, how he could possibly have been screaming for help. The most logical answer to these two dichotomies is that they did not happen.