Would the Govt response be different in NO.......

[Dark Knight]

Maybe this is a sign that our government has "lost" the nation, i.e. it is no longer effective, in many ways. I say this because of all the comments here and in the media saying "is this happening in America?" Maybe "losing" the city of N.O. was just a metaphor for the larger reality, either vis a vis the Bush Administration or our leaders in general. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Dara]

=Dara]How about that? That gives us something in common with Michael Brown

Please explain what you mean by that? My post was with no intention of disrespect anyone- If you felt I worded somethng in a way it did- explain-
tia

No, not at all. I just mean we have that in common with Michael Brown, the FEMA guy who said yesterday afternoon that he'd heard of no "unrest" and didn't know people were at the convention center (by that time, people had died here, and been raped). Bush praised his today, I heard.

 

[concernedperson]

Maybe this is a sign that our government has "lost" the nation, i.e. it is no longer effective, in many ways. I say this because of all the comments here and in the media saying "is this happening in America?" Maybe "losing" the city of N.O. was just a metaphor for the larger reality, either vis a vis the Bush Administration or our leaders in general. Just thinking out loud.

I am with you on this.I am appalled. I can't even believe we are looking at this with any rose colored glasses.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Why don't you recognize a problem? Do you have a magic wand to make this all go away? Please ease my soul, all I do is cry. Help me.

Huh?:waitasec: Ya lost me

 

[Details]

I don't think its race. It's a combination of a few elements - first, the scale of the disaster is far, far larger than expected; also, the hit was delayed - everyone had started to relax, people had come back to the city after the hurricane passed.

FEMA practiced for a cat3, not a high cat4; and I think the idea that New Orleans would so quickly become uninhabitable was just to huge for people to realize.

Then there's those idiot gangs - I'm quite sure they did stay behind to loot - people who are looters will do that. When all your neighbors are out, it's such a great time to steal lots of stuff! And others know that, so they stay behind to protect their stuff from the looters - that combined with the usual stubborness of people left that 20% behind in the city (and to me, that sounds about typical for a mandatory evacuation - there are always lots of people who figure they can ride it out, looters, and people protecting their property).

So many people behind and in danger means that everyone available (and the roads into the city were mostly toast, communications nearly nonexistient, hard to get more manpower where it is needed) was working on rescues, which was all the opportunity the gangs needed to try to take over the city. I can't disagree with the decision to try to save lives rather than stop looters - until it got too bad, I'd have done the same thing.

And all those thugs out there decided to shoot at the rescuers, try to steal all the relief supplies for themselves, go after the medicine the doctors had - I think they like the city this way. That has been a significant delaying factor in the relief and rescue efforts.

I don't think the color of the skin on the gangs nor the people to be rescued made a bit of difference. The presence of the thugs and their actions - that does make a huge difference.


Marthaatex: Don't change a word, and keep calling it like you see it. PC attempts to hide from unpleasant truths do not do any race, any group, any society any good.

 

[j2mirish]

=Dara]No, not at all. I just mean we have that in common with Michael Brown, the FEMA guy who said yesterday afternoon that he'd heard of no "unrest" and didn't know people were at the convention center (by that time, people had died here, and been raped). Bush praised his today, I heard


Ok- I see what you meant----:blushing: --I guess what I meant by the US sitting in our homes, was just we are all so upset with the tragedy, that we want things to go perfectly -- ( you know that saying....armchair quarterbacks!) I am one of the first to shout the things about our government that I feel are wrong-- Maybe I just want to feel in the bottom of my heart, that this scenario was SOOOOO HUGE--- they did not even know where to begin- Again ..does that make this right--- absolutley not--- but does it mean it was intentional...I dont think so ---I live just miles north of where hurricane charlie hit last year-- it was a 4 also- but it did not have near the dimension of Katrina-- that was a year ago- and there are still piles of trash & debri-- I cant even begin to imagine taking on the cleanup of this nightmare-

 

[Marthatex]

....................I never implied that I had a problem with that - because I don't. I am also, not hung up on using the politically correct phrase of the day. My objection to her use of "the Blacks" is that it implies that all Black people are of the same mind - that they all think alike and that they all behave the same way - as if there is the "Black" way.

I had always thought that I was supposed to say Black, or the Blacks. Not Negro anymore. As I explained, I was just typing fast and reporting things I had heard.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about regarding the "blacks".

When I listed those things about myself I was very angry one night about things perhaps you may or may not know about. I felt I was being treated very badly. I am very sensitive.

I am not aware that I go around "tooting my own horn". Sometimes I brag about my children or some accomplishment, like my writing awards. So what? I thought women were supposed to pat themselves on the back and support each other. Guess not.

I am a Democrat and believe in most democratic principles, so you're barking up the wrong tree. I do not feel that I should have to appologize for the fact that my father has worked in government, and is a famous man around here. I'm proud of him.

I'm sorry that something has made you so angry at me.

 

[Marthatex]

:doh: :banghead: THUD! AGAIN!

Like, what do you mean? I was saying that tongue in cheek because it wasn't OK to say blacks.

Black is the only thing I know, so please just tell me what to say. Don't play games, just say what you mean.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Like, what do you mean? I was saying that tongue in cheek because it wasn't OK to say blacks.

Black is the only thing I know, so please just tell me what to say. Don't play games, just say what you mean.

You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthatex

EDITED

"Perhaps I should use the word "impoverished", instead of blacks. Politically correct. The "impoverished" are having a hard time down there. We in Texas are trying to do everything we can to help."



My panties are twisted because it sounds as if the two are synonymous in your dictionary. ( impoverished="blacks")

Also, maybe you should take notice to the elderly.....they tend to be impoverished there as well, regardless of color.

 

[Details]

IMHO, I read that as just a frustrated attempt to come up with a term that she wouldn't be slammed for. All seems pretty ridiculous to me. So many different terms, every single one a hot button to someone.

 

[goody34]

I believe that the response would have been different depending upon affluence, not race,

Those on vacation from around the country or from other countries were taken from the superdome first:
Fats Domino and Irma Thomson, were both located and rescued along with their families and taken to an "undisclosed location" not the superdome.

In my opinion, this is definetly a cases of class discrimination, but I don't think it was about racism.

 

[Nova]

I for one was very surprised to see the large amount of Afro Americans involved in this tragedy. It certainly wouldn't affect my decision to help.

I am very sadden by the amount of looting, crime, etc. I think those people commiting these crimes have done that for years not just in the event of the hurricane. Its difficult to comprehend that the warning to evacuate wasn't taken more seriously. A simple two hour drive and they would have faired so much better. Hopefully, the next time a hurricane threatens an area like this, the buses will come in two days before the hurricane hits and take these people to safe places.

The survivors need to be placed with extended family somewhere in the country as soon as possible. Trying to house them in these large numbers is ridiculous. This country has planes, trains and boats. Spread these people out and do it quickly, before they are out of control. Money will be coming their way that we know for sure.

No one wants them harmed, but then again society doesn't need to suffer any harm from riots, etc. New Orleans is just an example of what can happen when people start making demands. The relief should be there, but because its not, is not a reason to loot stores, thats just the mentally shared by alot of these people. God help those who have found themselves among the lowlife of New Orleans.

BB, as I'm reading your post I am hearing stats on TV: 120,000 people in NO were living on incomes of less than $8,000/year before the hurricane. Most such people did not have cars in which to leave; many did not have extended family that could afford to house them, nor could they afford to stay in upcountry motels.

And before we judge their supposed "mentality," let's us go without food and water and security and medicine and information for 4 or 5 days. Then we'll see who complains and who breaks into a grocery store.

 

[Nova]

I believe that the response would have been different depending upon affluence, not race,

Those on vacation from around the country or from other countries were taken from the superdome first:
Fats Domino and Irma Thomson, were both located and rescued along with their families and taken to an "undisclosed location" not the superdome.

In my opinion, this is definetly a cases of class discrimination, but I don't think it was about racism.

I think you are right. Given enough income or fame, "blacks" become less "black" (in some ways) in this country. Unfortunately, class and race are nearly inseparable given our history.

 

[Bobbisangel]

If the majority were affluent & white

I'd bet money on that one and I never bet unless I am positive that I will win.

 

[Bobbisangel]

I for one was very surprised to see the large amount of Afro Americans involved in this tragedy. It certainly wouldn't affect my decision to help.

I am very sadden by the amount of looting, crime, etc. I think those people commiting these crimes have done that for years not just in the event of the hurricane. Its difficult to comprehend that the warning to evacuate wasn't taken more seriously. A simple two hour drive and they would have faired so much better. Hopefully, the next time a hurricane threatens an area like this, the buses will come in two days before the hurricane hits and take these people to safe places.

The survivors need to be placed with extended family somewhere in the country as soon as possible. Trying to house them in these large numbers is ridiculous. This country has planes, trains and boats. Spread these people out and do it quickly, before they are out of control. Money will be coming their way that we know for sure.

No one wants them harmed, but then again society doesn't need to suffer any harm from riots, etc. New Orleans is just an example of what can happen when people start making demands. The relief should be there, but because its not, is not a reason to loot stores, thats just the mentally shared by alot of these people. God help those who have found themselves among the lowlife of New Orleans.

First of all...most of these people are poor and live from paycheck to paycheck. They don't own vehicles so it was impossible for them to pack it up and drive away to safety.

Secondly...Not everyone was looting. The same thing would happen anywhere when there is no LE to take control. Most of the people took direction and went where they were told. Then they were left to fend for themselves as if their lives had no meaning. For the people who did go into stores and take milk for their babies...diapers...food...drink...the things that they needed in order to survive...more power to them. I would have done the same thing. No one else was stepping forward to provide for their needs.
They are not going to "take control" of anything. Good grief.

I would like to see how well you could handle a disaster like this...if you had no water, food, bath, clean clothes, medicine, NOTHING. Would you want someone to say....you just sit and wait...you have no right to ask for anything or to whine when it doesn't come...for 5 days. Give me a break.

THE LOWLIFE OF NEW ORLEANS....The only comment I will make about that disgusting comment is....you should be ashamed of yourself and your high and mighty attitude.

 

[Bobbisangel]

There was a plan. We are finding out exactly how lacking the plan turned out to be in a lot of areas. People were told to get the hell out of Dodge! BUSSES were sent for people who had no way out on their own! Some people chose not to take advantage of the ride away from low-lying areas.

New Orleans issued a MANDATORY evacuation on Sunday, one day before the hurricane hit and two days before the flooding began.

80% of the people did evacuate. 20% stayed behind. I'm thinking that of that 20% MOST OF THEM KNEW a hurricane was coming and decided to ride it out. Well, it's been a rougher ride than they imagined.

Was it stupid to house people in the Super Dome? Yep. Could the plan have been better? Yep. Will it be better next time? I sure hope so.

AS FOR THE LACK OF HELP BEING RACIAL: New Orleans has a black mayor, a black chief of police, a black man heads the utilities department, the educational system, etc. It is a city run by African Americans. I don't think that race has much to do with the things we see going horribly wrong. The head of Acadian Ambulance cancelled rescue missions to hospitals at one point because the ambulances were being attacked. Now we hear of people dying in the hospitals because they haven't been evacuated. Whose fault is it? Rescuers have been shot at! We are hearing of people who still haven't been rescued, God help them. But whose fault is it? Helicopters, shot at!! Is it the fault of the rescuers, or the damn thugs with guns who are strutting around so stupid that they would shoot the ones who come to save them?

Why weren't the patients in the hospitals evacuated? They were sick and couldn't just get up and move on their own. Who was responsible for them?
No one counted on that Levy breaking but as old as it was it shouldn't have been a surprise.

I've listened to the mayor beg for help from the government and it was very clear that he is feeling desperate. Maybe if the mayor and every other person who holds some kind of office had been white... help would have come before the 5th day.

 

[goody34]

I think you are right. Given enough income or fame, "blacks" become less "black" (in some ways) in this country. Unfortunately, class and race are nearly inseparable given our history.

You have a point Nova,
But the way I look at it no matter your race, gender, or creed, given enough income or fame the only color people see is green, the color of money.
In society today money= power.
those with money control the power, those without are controlled by those with money.

 

[Dark Knight]

(AP) At one point, the evacuation was interrupted briefly when school buses rolled up so some 700 guests and employees from the Hyatt Hotel could move to the head of the evacuation line — much to the amazement of those who had been crammed in the stinking Superdome since Sunday."How does this work? They (are) clean, they are dry, they get out ahead of us?" exclaimed Howard Blue, 22, who tried to get in their line. The National Guard blocked him as other guardsmen helped the well-dressed guests with their luggage.

The 700 had been trapped in the hotel, next to the Superdome, but conditions were considerably cleaner, even without running water, than the unsanitary crush inside the dome. The Hyatt was severely damaged by the storm. Every pane of glass on the riverside wall was blown out.

Mayor Ray Nagin has used the hotel as a base since it is across the street from city hall, and there were reports the hotel was cleared with priority to make room for police, firefighters and other officials.

National Guard Capt. John Pollard called the decision to move the Hyatt people to the head of the line "very poor."

 

[Beyond Belief]

First of all...most of these people are poor and live from paycheck to paycheck. They don't own vehicles so it was impossible for them to pack it up and drive away to safety.

Secondly...Not everyone was looting. The same thing would happen anywhere when there is no LE to take control. Most of the people took direction and went where they were told. Then they were left to fend for themselves as if their lives had no meaning. For the people who did go into stores and take milk for their babies...diapers...food...drink...the things that they needed in order to survive...more power to them. I would have done the same thing. No one else was stepping forward to provide for their needs.
They are not going to "take control" of anything. Good grief.

I would like to see how well you could handle a disaster like this...if you had no water, food, bath, clean clothes, medicine, NOTHING. Would you want someone to say....you just sit and wait...you have no right to ask for anything or to whine when it doesn't come...for 5 days. Give me a break.

THE LOWLIFE OF NEW ORLEANS....The only comment I will make about that disgusting comment is....you should be ashamed of yourself and your high and mighty attitude.

I am only going to respond to your last comment. And no I won't give you a break. To leave those innocent people among the rapists, thieves, and murderers, THE LOWLIFE, is horrible. Their not taking control, are you deaf, dumb and blind, their holding hostages, shooting at the officers. This is the last I will comment on this subject.
How ridiculous.

 

[Marthatex]

You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthatex

EDITED

"Perhaps I should use the word "impoverished", instead of blacks. Politically correct. The "impoverished" are having a hard time down there. We in Texas are trying to do everything we can to help."

I've been noticing the elderly; they're dying. I've been watching TV all week. I've been reading the newspapers, the New York times. I am really not concerned with "words" right now. I honestly don't know how all this got started but, it is "splitting hairs".

Thank heavens many have gotten to the Astrodome and they look so happy. Some of the black men and women were interviewed and they really were greatful - "this highway rocks", or something like that. They seem like very nice people, just everyday people like you and me. One older woman yelled out something horrible about BUsh LOL. Her eyes were all swollen.

Up here in central Texas we are having around 5000 come, the last I heard. They will be getting alot of freebies from companies that are opening their doors to them. Starbucks will be giving them free water, coffee; not sure about food. The real estate developers are already donating apartments. they are going to love it up here, and will be treated great.

Already lists have been given to us about what they need - baby food and clothing, kitchen items, sheets and towels. The churches are getting involved. I hear Houston has already been terrific; had everything set up. Even Rick Perry I was impressed with on TV.

Things are looking up for these folks!