How were they going to get search warrants if the D.A. would softball them?
Pat was such a complete idiot that she sent the cops the key piece of evidence that could put her away for murder.
Would you pull a cord
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How were they going to get search warrants if the D.A. would softball them?
Pat was such a complete idiot that she sent the cops the key piece of evidence that could put her away for murder.
Tell you what, Fang: as soon as you find something about this case that DOES make sense, you let me know!
I think this is much ado about nothing myself.
My point is that, since the DA was more-or-less friendly with them, the Rs didn't want to rock the boat by taking advantage. The DA might take that personally and issue search warrants, which would give the cops lee-way to tear the place up.
MurriFlower
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I posted this last night and must have lost it somehow. Sorry about the length of it, but if you have the patience to read it, it'll indicate how 'low tech' the interview about the coat/sweater/jacket was and why I believe the investigators were relying on PR to provide the correct coat, as they seemed to have little idea which one she was wearing on the morning of the murder. I think this would indicate that, regardless of what fibers they found that were consistent with, it would have been very hard to prove in Court:
16 Q. You were shown, I believe,
17 photographs that were taken -- and this is
18 during your '98 interview -- photographs that
19 were taken at the White's house Christmas
20 night at dinner. In that you are wearing a
21 red coat, kind of a wool, wool jacket. Do
22 you recall seeing that?
23 A. It is kind of a black and red
24 and gray fleece.
25 Q. Cut more like a blazer than --
0154
1 A. Like a peacoat.
2 MR. WOOD: Well, the picture is
3 the picture, isn't it?
4 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Right, like a
5 peacoat. I just want to make sure we are
6 talking about the same thing. Do you
7 remember that jacket?
8 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
9 Q. I would like you to give us a
10 little background on that coat, and again I
11 am not going to hold you to days of the
12 week, but do you recall, first of all, where
13 you purchased it?
14 A. Well, Priscilla had had one like
15 it that I admired. And she told me, I
16 believe she told me she got hers at EMS.
17 So I went there to look. And they didn't
18 have one or I didn't want to get one exactly
19 like hers. So I think I got that one at
20 Marshals in Boulder.
21 Q. Do you recall what year you
22 purchased it?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Let's -- I can understand that.
25 Now I am going to -- we will take a time
0155
1 frame. Was it a fairly, by your
2 recollection, was it a fairly recent purchase
3 that you had or was this a coat you'd had
4 for some period of time prior -- and, of
5 course, I am using it as the date of
6 JonBenet's murder.
7 A. Well, I can't remember. I am
8 sure I bought it in -- as it was getting
9 colder. So it was either probably fall of
10 '96 or '95.
11 Q. That, the coat that you wore the
12 night to the Whites, was it something that
13 was -- I mean, the primary color is red.
14 MR. WOOD: Well, don't fight over
15 -- excuse me, Patsy. Don't you have a
16 picture?
17 MR. LEVIN: I don't have a
18 picture with me.
9 MR. WOOD: Why characterize it.
20 It is what it is.
21 THE WITNESS: There is a picture.
22 MR. WOOD: It is in the picture.
23 Let's look at that.
24 MR. LEVIN: Just to expedite
25 things, because I am not fighting over the
0156
1 color, what I want to know is --
2 MR. WOOD: I think she said it
3 was red and black and gray.
4 THE WITNESS: A red and black and
5 gray check.
6 Q. (By Mr. Levin) What I am, what
7 I am interested in is, I am certainly not
8 going to debate concentration of colors. It
9 is irrelevant. What I am interested in, is
10 it something that you wore exclusively during
11 the Christmas season or is this a coat that
12 you wore anytime it was appropriate for the
13 weather?
14 A. Anytime it was appropriate.
15 Q. So it is not like a special
16 Christmassy type, type of Christmas sweater,
17 I know you talked about Christmas?
18 A. (Witness shook head negatively).
19 MR. WOOD: Your answer is not,
20 because you are nodding your head.
21 THE WITNESS: No, it is not.
22 MR. WOOD: So the record is
23 clear.
24 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) We were
25 provided that coat by, I believe, Ellis
0157
1 Armistead.
2 MR. TRUJILLO: Correct.
3 Q. (By Mr. Levin) What I would like
4 you to help us with is to understand how the
5 coat got from you to Ellis, if you know.
6 A. The -- I think you all requested
7 it.
8 Q. That is correct.
9 A. So I went to my closet, dug it
10 out, put it in a box, and sent it to Ellis.
11 Q. Was that coat something that was
12 taken -- you didn't wear that coat out of
13 the house when the police took you out of
14 the house the afternoon of the 26th. Do you
15 recall?
16 A. No, I don't think I did.
17 Q. Do you know how you came into
18 possession? Was that something that came
19 through Pam when she picked up some clothes
20 for you or was that something that was boxed
21 up and shipped when the house was packed?
22 MR. WOOD: Just so I am clear,
23 when was the request made?
24 MR. TRUJILLO: It was received
25 January of '98. So it was --
0158
1 MR. WOOD: Are we talking about
2 sometime between December of '96, and then
3 you all asked for it when, a year later?
4 MR. TRUJILLO: I don't have the
5 exact date.
6 THE WITNESS: It was a long time
7 later. We were in the house in Atlanta when
8 the request was made.
9 CHIEF BECKNER: December of '97.
10 MR. WOOD: So a year later you
11 all asked for the clothes, and they produced
12 it in January of '98?
13 MR. TRUJILLO: Yes.
14 MR. WOOD: Okay. Does that help
15 just put it in the time context of when it
16 might have been?
17 MR. LEVIN: And because everyone
18 needs a computer whiz, we have Mr. Kane.
19 We're talking about that coat.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 CHIEF BECKNER: Is that a, just
22 for clarification, is that a coat or a
23 sweater?
24 THE WITNESS: It is kind of a
25 little jacket, coat.
0159
1 CHIEF BECKNER: We called it a
2 sweater in the past.
3 THE WITNESS: It is a jacket.
4 CHIEF BECKNER: Ellis Armistead
5 called it a sweater in his letter to us.
6 So I just want to clarify we are talking
7 about the right piece of clothing.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, we are
9 talking about that. You can call it
10 whatever you want. It is kind of a jacket
11 more.
12 MR. WOOD: I'd go with jacket.
13 THE WITNESS: I mean, I, you
14 know, it is something you put on to go
15 outside in the cold.
16 MR. WOOD: All right. Now, I
17 had to interrupted you to try to figure out
18 if we can put it into context of time.
19 Your question was?
20 THE WITNESS: You want to know
21 did it come to --
22 MR. WOOD: Let's let him figure
23 out what it was. Hold on a second. He
24 asked, was that something that came through
25 Pam when she picked up some clothes, which I
0160
1 am taking to be back early right after
2 the --
3 MR. LEVIN: I'm talking about,
4 yes.
5 MR. WOOD: Pam picked up some
6 clothes right after.
7 MR. LEVIN: Saturday the 28th of
8 December, 199 -
9 MR. WOOD: Right. Was that
10 something that was boxed up and shipped when
11 the house was packed? Does that help you?
12 Do you know the answer?
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 MR. WOOD: If so, tell him.
15 Q. (By Mr. Levin) When the request
16 came to you, though, from, either I suppose
17 your lawyers, about turning that jacket over,
18 it was, if I understand you correctly,
19 hanging in your closet?
20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative), in Atlanta,
21 yes.
22 Q. And that would be, the request is
23 made approximately a year after your daughter
24 is murdered. Is it something that was just
25 hanging in your closet or something that you
0161
1 continued to wear if you recall during the
2 one-year period or any portion thereof?
3 A. I don't remember.
4 Q. I will take -- tell me if this
5 is correct. I am taking that as saying you
6 may have worn it, but some point in time
7 between the murder of JonBenet and when you
8 turned it over, you may not have; you have
9 no independent recollection?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Did you, if you recall, did you
12 clean it at any time -- I believe it is
13 wool, primarily wool -- dry-clean it from
14 when you -- which may sound like a silly
15 question, but I will put it in a larger
16 context. The clothing that came boxed, did
17 you -- those items that you kept, continued
18 to use or at least have available, did you
19 clean them all before you put them away,
20 take them all to the cleaners?
21 MR. WOOD: I am going to ask you
22 to go back and redo that one because that
23 one kind of went in about three different
24 directions, Bruce.
25 MR. LEVIN: Okay.
0162
1 MR. WOOD: You started off asking
2 about whether she had this jacket cleaned and
3 then you started talking about clothes that
4 were boxed up. And I don't know if she
5 knows whether this one was boxed up or not.
6 MR. LEVIN: Right. And I
7 understand that.
8 Q. (By Mr. Levin) So what I am
9 trying to do is just to, because I
10 understand you can't identify a particular,
11 whether it was this particular item.
12 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
13 Q. Let's start with the clothes that
14 were boxed up. The clothes that were boxed
15 up that you then reintegrated into your
16 wardrobe, did you clean all of those before
17 you did that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you have any recollection as
20 to this particular coat, whether or not you
21 ever cleaned it before giving it to Mr.
22 Armistead?
23 A. No.
24 Q. It is a coat that you would
25 dry-clean, though?
0163
1 A. I am not so sure about that. I
2 think, I think it is able to be thrown in
3 the washing machine.
4 MR. KANE: I believe it was made
5 of acrylic, if that helps.
6 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
7 MR. WOOD: You all gotta decide,
8 he says wool, you say acrylic.
9 MR. LEVIN: It was acrylic.
10 MR. WOOD: It ought to say
11 dry-cleaning only on it, if it is, or if it
12 doesn't, sometimes it'll get washed. Do you
13 know for a fact, that is the key, do you
14 know whether you dry cleaned it or washed it
15 as you sit here today, Patsy?
16 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Do you know if
18 Mr. Armistead did before he sent it to us?
19 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
20 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I will take that
21 as a statement that, once you turned the
22 coat over or may have boxed it up and
23 shipped it to Mr. Armistead, that your
24 personal knowledge of what happens to it is
25 none?
0164
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. It is not something that you and
3 he ever discussed during the course of maybe
4 a briefing or something like that?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Was it a jacket that you wore
7 around the house? I know this is an indoor
8 picture. Did you do that commonly?
9 A. Sometimes, if it was particularly
10 chilly.
11 Q. Do you recall whether or not you
12 wore that on either the 23rd of December
13 1996, the 24th, or the 20-- well, we know
14 you wore it on the 25th. The 23rd or the
15 24th?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Was it something that you would
18 frequently wear inside the house?
19 A. Sometimes I would, but what is
20 frequently? You know, I don't --
21 Q. Frequently would be three or four
22 times -- I mean, was it, if you are chilly,
23 was this the item that you always threw on?
24 That is what I am getting at.
25 A. Not necessarily, no.
0165
1 Q. You talked about, in your '98
2 interview, that you, on the 24th, that you
3 were in the basement and you were wrapping
4 presents. Do you know, when you were doing
5 that, whether or not you had on that coat?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. You have told us that you painted
8 as a hobby. Would you wear this coat to
9 paint?
10 A. No.
Holdontoyourhat
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Boy PR sure doesn't seem to know much about her own coat. Whether or not she wore it, how she washed it, or anything...
Wore it all the time? "not necessarily". Seems more of a yes/no response is appropriate here.
LOL.
Wore it all the time? "not necessarily". Seems more of a yes/no response is appropriate here.
LOL.
Holdontoyourhat
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Thats what I thought, in late 1997.
MurriFlower
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It's what makes me think she isn't too much interested in the questions. She knew what they were leading to - "Hey guess what? We found fibers on the body 'consistent' with the coat you were wearing. Or was it a sweater. Or maybe a pea jacket. Well, no matter, whatever you were wearing, we found them ole incriminating fibers there"
madeleine
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If they are innocent it was obvious to them that the LE interviews are just a waste of time and they knew very well that they are the target so I guess that's why the attitude.
Reminds me of the PR/JR/ST larry king show.
ST was shouting and PR's attitude was something like "you have no idea how it really happened",she wasn't angry but seemed even bored by ST's ramblings.That's when I started to think that the bed-wetting theory is bs.Judging by PR's behaviour/reactions ST was farrrrrrrrr away from the truth.
IMO
Reminds me of the PR/JR/ST larry king show.
ST was shouting and PR's attitude was something like "you have no idea how it really happened",she wasn't angry but seemed even bored by ST's ramblings.That's when I started to think that the bed-wetting theory is bs.Judging by PR's behaviour/reactions ST was farrrrrrrrr away from the truth.
IMO
MurriFlower
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This is the interview from earlier, in 1998, where the jacket/coat/sweater was discussed. It's the one I was looking for when I came across the interview I posted earlier.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Looks like a little button
16 there, I guess (inaudible) button (inaudible).
17 The reason I'm looking so hard at this
18 is because Priscilla had a jacket like this. I
19 mean, until I saw this picture, I had thought
20 that I had worn my Christmas sweater to their
21 house, the little bobbly one. And then I saw
22 this picture and I said oh, I must have worn
23 that sweater to their house.
24 But then I thought, well, maybe I had
25 her jacket. I mean, you know, I don't know. I
0545
1 was just trying to figure out, this was
2 certainly the one I sent, I sent mine out there,
3 but I just want to make sure that...
4 TRIP DeMUTH: That you were wearing yours
5 on Christmas and not hers?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean, I could have
7 been in her house in the living room, you know,
8 what I mean, and been cold and she said here put
9 this on. I just can't remember. My point is
10 that we both had jackets similar to that.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: So I don't know.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: And did you buy them at the
14 same time and place?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I mean, I don't know I
16 don't know when she got me that. I really don't
17 remember. FYI, I mean.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: So can you tell if that's
19 your jacket you're wearing or --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: This one, you mean?
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Were they the exact same?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: They were pretty close, but
23 I can't, I can't really remember.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Why I would have hers on.
0546
1 All I'm saying is mine -- first time somebody
2 asked me what I had on that day, I think I might
3 have said I had my Christmas sweater on which is
4 the bobbly --
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
6 PATSY RAMSEY: -- little beaded one. And
7 then when I saw this picture, somebody showed me
8 this picture --
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
10 PATSY RAMSEY: -- because they wanted the
11 clothing, I said oh, I must have worn that one,
12 so I got that one instead. I think I sent both
13 of them, actually.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: You sent both of them?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: The bobbly beaded one or
16 whatever. I think actually I -- I know I wore
17 that one on the 23rd. Can I see that one?
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Oh, sure. So the one you
19 sent us, was that hers, or yours?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it was mine.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. So where did you get
22 it from? I mean, was it down in Atlanta or
23 wherever?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible.)
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. So this, just to make
0547
1 clear this 13-64 and 63 is yours?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
madeleine
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This is not me defending the Ramsey's here but come on,your case is based on fibers but you ask for the clothes one year later?
I know that the cops wanted a lot but the DA didn't give them warrants.But here it's not the Ramsey's fault ,even if they're guilty,this is a system problem.
The guilty ones have the legal right to TRY to avoid prosecution but it's the system duty to make sure they don't get away with it.
I know that the cops wanted a lot but the DA didn't give them warrants.But here it's not the Ramsey's fault ,even if they're guilty,this is a system problem.
The guilty ones have the legal right to TRY to avoid prosecution but it's the system duty to make sure they don't get away with it.
MurriFlower
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Yeah exactly. Although to RDI this was PR being evasive, if you look at it from her point of view, here's someone asking her 12 months after the event, what clothes she wore the day when her child was murdered!! Like this is the most important thing and you are likely to remember. Maybe they should have asked her what she ate for breakfast of the 22nd November 1963. Just because something important happened on that day, doesn't mean you would necessarily remember every detail of what you did, either before the event or after.
And I have to dispute what you said about the DA not giving them warrants in this instance. This doesn't even come into the fibers thing. The fact is the Cops didn't even think to ask them for the clothes until Dec 97, it was not that the DA denied them the means to obtain them.
There were plenty of photographs proving what Patsy (and JB) wore that day. And you may dispute whatever, but Hunter did refuse a warrant for the clothing the family wore that day. He wanted police to just ask for them. I also am puzzled by the length of time that elapsed before they did.
I think you're right. That house was released to the family FAR too soon. Whether intruder or family member, kidnapping or murder, the WHOLE house is a crime scene, especially when a body is found inside. LE still doesn't know what room she died in, and the house as it was then doesn't even exist anymore. That house was bought shortly after the murder by a group of R associates, and it was that group who subsequently sold it to a private buyer. But before they did, they whitewashed (literally and figuratively) the entire house, pulling off all the wallpaper and painting every wall white. The also pulled up carpeting. NO chance to ever find blood splatter patterns, urine stains, etc. And this was done pretty quickly. It was so obviously done to hide any evidence that may have been there, yet there was nothing that could have been done to stop it, as the house had been released from the investigation.
Some of the crime photos around show the empty house after the "cleansing".
Eller was by all accounts pretty arrogant, dismissing offers of outside help from LE with more experience in crimes of this type.
Dee, those photos could not prove what they were wearing to the exclusion of all clothing. Their clothing could be substituted for items that looked just like what the photos revealed. Photos would not necessarily prove they were the same or different; They couldn't prove to the exclusion of other items that looked similarly.
Absolutely unfounded.
They wanted to sell the house. The cops already destroyed walls. If they hadn't gotten enough evidence, they could have demanded all the carpeting, etc., be removed to a site of their choosing.
Selling a house where a crime like this occurred isn't cake. It needed to appear "cleansed" to attract a buyer.
This is another example of interpreting circumstances unfairly and negatively toward this family. The record is replete with them. They never stood a chance.
madeleine
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I wouldn't have sold the house so soon.I would have kept it so my OWN investigators can do reconstructions and stuff.
And yes I read that it was Eller who didn't want outside help like the FBI.What a #$%^.
Of course, once the house was released to the family, they were free to do as they pleased with it, and I don't blame them for selling it. But they could have waited for sure, they didn't need the money to move to Atlanta.
The "whitewash" didn't just remove evidence from an RDI point of view. Parental fibers and hairs would be expected to be all over the house (except the items exclusively linked to the crime and left in places and at times the parents denied having anything to do with- tying the garrote, replacing the panties, putting the tape on her mouth). Actually all their friends and family would also have hair an fiber left all over the house, including the kids' friends.
Even MORE important for IDI, had there been other evidence of an intruder- something-anything - a button, a hair, fiber, anything that might have been found to match the Touch DNA that turned up so many years later. Now- all we HAVE is that DNA and lets face it, it is not a forgone conclusion that it was left by someone at the time of the crime. To PROVE that, an identified donor is needed.
The "whitewash" didn't just remove evidence from an RDI point of view. Parental fibers and hairs would be expected to be all over the house (except the items exclusively linked to the crime and left in places and at times the parents denied having anything to do with- tying the garrote, replacing the panties, putting the tape on her mouth). Actually all their friends and family would also have hair an fiber left all over the house, including the kids' friends.
Even MORE important for IDI, had there been other evidence of an intruder- something-anything - a button, a hair, fiber, anything that might have been found to match the Touch DNA that turned up so many years later. Now- all we HAVE is that DNA and lets face it, it is not a forgone conclusion that it was left by someone at the time of the crime. To PROVE that, an identified donor is needed.
MurriFlower
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The Globe offered to buy the house and turn it over to them to destroy, but they said they had finished with the house!!